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CreativeDominant -> RE: From the Top to the Bottom (3/29/2007 6:38:13 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SlyStone
Now see...this is where the puzzlement comes in. Your original post gave a statement as to what you think the construct of BDSM and D/s is for most of us and yet...in your statement above, you state that your viewpoint is in contrast to what you see as the norm around here. If something is in contrast to the norm, then how does it come to be offered as the "real" thing and more common than the norm???
When I say the vast majority of people I am talking about people in real life, and when I say around here I am talking about people on this board and in my experience there is a difference for sure. There lies your confusion. I apologize for not being clearer. And in any case please point out where I said that anyone is not real. What I said was the tops and bottoms who engage in only bdsm are in fact as real as those who proclaim a d/s relationship. If you disagree with that than feel free to express yourself.
O.K.. Let's start with your contention that you did not say that anyone is not real.
From your Original Post:
One could argue that If you take away the bdsm , the physical aspect of wiitwd,, than you are basically left with a vanilla relationship. The exchange of authority and control exists in relationships all throughout society with no special labels given or needed, it simply is how many people relate. Perhaps it is even the norm. Giving it a name and defining it it and labeling it does not make it any more real. It is what it is.
Perhaps I am dense but I read that statement as saying that calling the way a D/s couple relate to each other...outside the BDSM...dominance and submission (D/s) does not make it any more real. Any more real what than what? More real in terms of power exchange versus a vanilla couple? More real in terms of power exchange than a top and a bottom? I'm sorry...but in my opinion, the power exchange I have enjoyed in my relationships with submissive women since the end of my marriage has definitely been more real and more defined than whatever exchange it was that I had with my wife...and in the majority of my close, vanilla friends' relationships.
Moving on to your next point about "tops and bottoms who only engage in BDSM being as real as those who proclaim a D/s relationship".
In what way? Shouldn't that be defined in order to be more correct? Is the power exchange that occurs between a top and a bottom who are also dominating and submitting during their BDSM play only every bit as real as the power exchange that goes on between a D/s couple outside of BDSM play? One could argue that it may be as real...because it has been agreed to and is occurring...but one could not argue that the level is the same, simply because it is limited to the play only and concerns only play. If one wanted to be picky, one could argue that it is not as real because it is occurring for only that specific period and is done only to enhance the play, not to build anything within themselves or the other.
That doesn't make them any less real in terms of being a couple...as a matter of fact, perhaps in terms of being a loving couple, they may be more real because it is possible that the couple that is engaged in D/s is in a power exchange relationship only with affection and sex but not necessarily love involved...but we are not just talking about a couple, are we? Or even a loving couple. We are talking power exchange, D/s, and BDSM and the vagaries of "real" and the technical iffiness that abounds in application of the term without explanation as to what parameters you are placing the term in.
quote:
There are plenty of vanillas who love the fun of BDSM and yet display very little D/s outside the BDSM and for some, very little within the BDSM play. It is BDSM play and the only part of their relationship it enhances is the sexual part. There are tops and bottoms on here who will play BDSM with another and allow that to be the only time they dominate or submit.
Talk about puzzlement!
Either I did not make my self clear or you are really misreading what I said. In fact, strangely enough you are agreeing with me and helping to make my point while apparently thinking we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, let the mood music begin and out from the rafters step rod sterling because we have entered some kind of alternate universe where we have lost the ability to communicate. Again if it is my fault for not being clearer, I apologize.
Actually...I am not. Your point was that this holds true for the majority of people. I take that from this part of your original post:
"Sometimes I wonder if people are using the so called d/s relationship as a justification for engaging in bdsm, as if they are ashamed of their need for kinky sex and fetishism and the acting out of violent fantasy, so they wrap it in the pretty package of master slave or dom sub, and they cloak it with the magic of consenuality and labels, and they privately wear their titles like a twisted shield of legitimacy and a badge of honor.
The giving of authority or power takes place in any bdsm dynamic, and there is always a blending of the mental and the physical in any bdsm interaction. In my opinion it is therefore the bdsm that is the core difference between how "we" live and how others live. Not the d/s, but the bdsm, the kink, the physical act, whatever you want to call it.
One could argue that If you take away the bdsm , the physical aspect of wiitwd,, than you are basically left with a vanilla relationship. The exchange of authority and control exists in relationships all throughout society with no special labels given or needed, it simply is how many people relate. Perhaps it is even the norm. Giving it a name and defining it it and labeling it does not make it any more real. It is what it is.
Take out the kink and every church going God fearing spandex and white belt wearing republican support the troops loving American will say it is the American way for the man to be in charge and God bless America and pass the apple pie. Just hide the whips and cuffs and pins, cause that is what makes you different. And if the women is in charge that aint exactly unusual, how many households are run and controlled by the wife, and the husband takes on the submissive role? Happens all the time.
But why is that an insult to some people? Why can't people admit that they are in it for the kink and the fetish and the so called perversions and the alternative sexual behavior that defines bdsm? Yes they have a need to submit or to dominate, just not all the time.
That does not mean that they are not really submissive or dominant or switches by nature, it means they don't have to be engaging in a conditional manner all the time or pretending to engage in a conditional manner all the time. Why is that some sort of dirty secret to admit, whereas saying one is in a d/s relationship is somehow more meaningful and more real?
(My words again) So, according to you, what is true that people mainly want to top or bottom and not engage in conditional, structured, D/s behavior all the time. My point was that there are those like that on here, but I don't believe them to be the majority of people on here. I don't honestly know what the percentage is but judging from the posts you've received so far, I'd say that there are not a great many tops and bottoms coming to your defense.
quote:
BDSM is not unique to a D/s relationship. There are plenty of D/s couples who have zero interest in bondage, sadism, masochism though there may be plenty of interest in discipline, though not necessarily of a physical variety.
Not sure where you got that I was saying that bdsm is unique to a d/s relationship. My point was that bdsm is a unique dynamic, not that it is unique to a d/s relationship. And my point was that bdsm IS a unique dynamic in contrast to d/s which is not a unique dynamic, in my opinion of course.
Actually, I wasn't stating that you had. My point was arguing against your stating that if you strip away the BDSM, then most couples that proclaim themselves D/s are in fact vanilla. Yet, as I stated and as several couples and singles on here have expressed in this and other threads, there are people that engage in D/s whose dynamic of power exchange certainly does not reflect the typical vanilla marriage dynamic as often as the BDSM dynamic, considered in and of itself just as the power exchange dynamic was, of a dominant/submissive couple closely mirrors the BDSM dynamic of a vanilla couple.
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