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NorthernGent -> John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 1:55:04 AM)

The links below are from a programme produced by the BBC. It is the first in a three part series (of which Meatcleaver's thread is number 2).

The opinion of the producers is that today's rush towards the free market is borne out of the suspicion of the Cold War years. Basically, John Nash's gaming theory suggesting humans are suspicious, selfish creatures all trying to get one over on each other is at the heart of this programme. He admits on camera he was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia when he devised his theory. His views however were taken on board by right-wing economists and politicians in an attempt to lend weight to their wish to reduce government involvement in politics and pour scorn on the hitherto sense of public duty. The result is that large parts of British and US society believe that only the market can provide real freedom because, at our core, we only care about ourselves and have no wish to work for the greater good. The problem is, this is all based on gaming theory produced by a man suffering from paranoia and acting in an age of the Cold War and hyper-suspicion - it is little wonder he came up with a theory that we're all suspicious, paranoid, self-centred creatures who should seek individualism to understand who we really are and, consequently, gain real freedom. What's more, the tests he devised to prove his point didn't produce the results he anticipated.

Sadly, our politics and economic structure reflect the views of this man and the politicians who took his theory on board in order to promote their own agenda. The result being that we're slaves of the market and our politics is full of corruption and inequality.

The above is what I took from the programme. It is only an hour long in total and well worth anyone's time.

Strangely, parts 5 and 6 have been deleted by YouTube and are missing here. So, the last two links won't follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOEB05_3-p0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVZBkelUft8&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgwX0339DH4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDTALoEHxjQ&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMXNDToPUaM&mode=related&search=





meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 5:19:41 AM)

It's a pity YouTube deleted parts 5 and 6 because they are important in the whole argument.

One thing I noticed is how the so called experts ignore everything that is inconvenient. For example in part 4, Madsen Pirie, a government adviser and management planning expert lol. said that cooperation had caused the chaos of the 1970s. Everyone knows why the chaos of the 1970s came about, the introduction of decimal currency and the joining of the EU caused double digit inflation while the government tried to impose a wage freeze. This was after decades of underinvestment by industrialists and government (hardly cooperation). What brought about the 1970s was short sighted self interest, the type proposed by game theorists, except that people were not acting as paranoid individuals but as groups with mutual interests.




FirmhandKY -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 7:26:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The links below are from a programme produced by the BBC. It is the first in a three part series (of which Meatcleaver's thread is number 2).

The opinion of the producers is that today's rush towards the free market is borne out of the suspicion of the Cold War years. Basically, John Nash's gaming theory suggesting humans are suspicious, selfish creatures all trying to get one over on each other is at the heart of this programme. He admits on camera he was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia when he devised his theory. His views however were taken on board by right-wing economists and politicians in an attempt to lend weight to their wish to reduce government involvement in politics and pour scorn on the hitherto sense of public duty. The result is that large parts of British and US society believe that only the market can provide real freedom because, at our core, we only care about ourselves and have no wish to work for the greater good. The problem is, this is all based on gaming theory produced by a man suffering from paranoia and acting in an age of the Cold War and hyper-suspicion - it is little wonder he came up with a theory that we're all suspicious, paranoid, self-centred creatures who should seek individualism to understand who we really are and, consequently, gain real freedom. What's more, the tests he devised to prove his point didn't produce the results he anticipated.

Sadly, our politics and economic structure reflect the views of this man and the politicians who took his theory on board in order to promote their own agenda. The result being that we're slaves of the market and our politics is full of corruption and inequality.

The above is what I took from the programme. It is only an hour long in total and well worth anyone's time.


John Nash did not invent or discover game theory.  Generally John von Neumann is credited with that:

While physics had found its language in the infinitesimal calculus, von Neumann proposed the language of game theory and a general equilibrium theory for economics.

...

Von Neumann eventually improved and extended the minimax theorem to include games involving imperfect information and games with more than two players. This work culminated in the 1944 classic Theory of Games and Economic Behavior (written with Oskar Morgenstern). This resulted in such public attention that The New York Times did a front page story, the likes of which only Einstein had previously earned.

While I've not seen the BBC show, I notice you mention it is "the producers' belief".  I disagree with their interpretation.  How you say that they are viewing game theory isn't how I view it at all.  In truth, game theory says that cooperation is the best way for people and society to act.

The iterated Prisoner's Dilemma is an example of how Nash equilibrium (his contribution to game theory) doesn't pan out for game theory as applied to what's "best for society".

It turns out that a "tit for tat with forgiveness" is a better way to proceed in a game in which there isn't an end or it is a very long game (iterative game).  Basically, this game is most successful for "players" when they both cooperate, and only defect when the other side does as a lesson and punishment.

Always defecting - as Nash's equilibrum suggests is the optimum strategy - is not the best strategy for success.  Mathematical mysteries: Survival of the nicest?:

... discovered that selfish strategies tended to do very badly, as did foolishly generous strategies. Defecting encouraged others to defect; not punishing others for defecting only encouraged them to do so again. One of the most successful and stable (in other words, successful against many different strategies and in many different environments) was "Tit for Tat". This strategy involves cooperating the first time you meet another agent, and after that always repeating your opponent's last move. So if your opponent defaults on one turn, you punish them by defaulting on the next; if they cooperate on one turn, you reward them by cooperating on the next.

A slightly better strategy - because it avoids the possibility of getting trapped into long cycles of retaliation - is "Tit for Tat with forgiveness". This is Tit for Tat with a small randomised possibility of forgiving a defaulter by cooperating anyway. Forgiveness is particularly helpful if you introduce the possibility of misinformation into the game - that is, if moves are sometimes randomly misreported.



What I find intriguing about this program, and your perceptions of it is that it appears simply to be an attempt to undermine the both the capitalistic system, and the concept of freedom at the same time.

Considering the source (BBC), and the conclusions you have reached (as they apparently have as well) it appears to be an attack on something that they consider as the basis for free-markets.

Anti-capitalism, anyone?

FirmKY





FirmhandKY -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 7:48:41 AM)

Let's talk about two real world examples of game theory, and how it supports free markets.

The first example is a drug buy.

Let's say that a drug dealer has a million dollars worth of cocaine they are attempting to sell to a group of individuals which they have never done business with before, and likely won't do business with again.

They set up a meeting for the exchange.

The buyers bring $1 million in cash.  The sellers bring the cocaine.

Why is there a high level of uncertainity and lots of guns and muscle around during the transaction?  Because the best strategy for each side is to kill the others, and take both the money and the drugs.  In othe words, the "best" strategy is to defect, and go for taking everything.

This is the model that the BBC is trying to say is the basis of free markets.  Its not.

Another example.

A restaurant owner goes into a farmer's market each day to buy fresh foods for his kitchen.

The farmers are generally the same each day.  The buyer is the same each day.  The buyer is looking for a long term supply of fresh food at prices that he can use in his kitchen, to keep his restaurant open, and solvent.

The farmers are looking for a buyer who will buy their products on a regular basis.

If a farmer promises fresh food, and defects by selling rotten or substandard food (defects), then when the buyer returns the next day, he will choose a different farmer (defects).

If a farmer provides good quality food, then the buyer will return to him, because his experience with that farmer gives him an idea that he will receive what he wants (in other words, both the farmer and the buyer will cooperate).

From the other side, if a farmer provides good quality food, and the buyer uses a rubber check, then the farmer has cooperated, and the buyer has defected.

The result is that the best "game" is for both players to cooperate.  If one doesn't and defects, then they will be punished.  This is called "tit for tat".

If, occasionally, the food isn't of the necessary quality, or occasionally the buyer's check bounces, but the other side forgives them and continues to use them, this is called "tit for tat with forgiveness".

This is the basis for free-markets.

This is the way that common sense will tell you how society generally operates successfully. 

This is game theory.

FirmKY




happypervert -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 8:02:31 AM)

quote:

The problem is, this is all based on gaming theory produced by a man suffering from paranoia and acting in an age of the Cold War and hyper-suspicion

This is stated as if the scientific community consists of sheep who eagerly jump on the bandwagon of any new fangled theory that comes along even if it comes from someone in a straight jacket.

That is hardly the case; usually new theories are met with skepticism and entrenched power brokers who have established their reputations by propogating the status quo. There is fierce resistance to change or adopting new ideas, and some will hold out until they die even if the new theory explains every inconsistency and gap in the old theory. So there has to be a lot of merit for new ideas to gain converts and eventually become widely accepted.

It sounds to me like the producers had an agenda and they were grasping at straws to make their case; sometimes the case can be nothing more than saying "We think this is bad" without offering any ideas that are better. However, if better ideas are out there, they will be old news by the time they are discovered by tv producers, and if those ideas aren't being adopted then there are probably good reasons for it which the producers conveniently ignore.




meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 8:34:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

John Nash did not invent or discover game theory.  Generally John von Neumann is credited with that:



Actually this is stated in the film but you can't put everything into the OP. However, John Nash did much of the mathmatics and formulated much of it and he himself points out that he was 'mad' (paranoid) when he did and that people are much more complex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Anti-capitalism, anyone?



Actually subversive and too complex to be an automaton in capitalist game theory.




seeksfemslave -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 8:37:12 AM)

Wots the date of John Nash ? von Neumann I know was at his peak in the 30s/40s.
Surely Adam Smiths book about the invisible  guiding hand of the market is all about this anyway
Wealth of Nations.  18th century ?

Now then. lets rumble......
Real free markets.....
Dont exist because they need ease of entry to and exit from the said market.
ie a carmaker can easily go bust but its a major endeavor for a replacement to appear.
Close approximations  allowing major corporations to develop dont work ; the natural tendency is for more wealth to accumulate in fewer hands. ie monopolies.

State controlled markets dont work because centralised bureaucrats cant respond quickly and dont have the technical expertise to offer anyway. State commissars are quite good at doing a lot of harm with say their pet educational theories ending up with reduced standards (UK) or land reform where what was highly productive land now is rotting away.( Zimbabwe) or 5 year Tractor plans ending with no Farmers, all  executed and no diesel to run the Tractors, all sold on the black market by enterprising functionaries. (USSR)

Whats required is a system that maximises freedom at the lowest level, allows for failure which will not be rewarded or success which will not be penalised,.all underpinned by rigorously applied contract Laws with special emphasis on monopolies or cartels, created in as democratic a manner as is possible and subject to quick change in the light of experience.

Why is all the above true....because I say so.




meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 8:39:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

This is stated as if the scientific community consists of sheep who eagerly jump on the bandwagon of any new fangled theory that comes along even if it comes from someone in a straight jacket.

That is hardly the case; usually new theories are met with skepticism and entrenched power brokers who have established their reputations by propogating the status quo. There is fierce resistance to change or adopting new ideas, and some will hold out until they die even if the new theory explains every inconsistency and gap in the old theory. So there has to be a lot of merit for new ideas to gain converts and eventually become widely accepted.

It sounds to me like the producers had an agenda and they were grasping at straws to make their case; sometimes the case can be nothing more than saying "We think this is bad" without offering any ideas that are better. However, if better ideas are out there, they will be old news by the time they are discovered by tv producers, and if those ideas aren't being adopted then there are probably good reasons for it which the producers conveniently ignore.



While it is hardly the case, it is the case in this instance. Actually Britain has done a great deal of experimenting with privatisation and internal markets and all have been a disaster, leading to less social provision, inadequate infrastructure, an increased wealth gap, more mental illness, increased drug use and a much increased prison population. I could go on.

Meanwhile, across the channel, the French and the Germans have refused to take this route and have better social provision, more efficiency, a smaller disparity in wealth, more social movement, less drug abuse, smaller prison populations and a generally happier, more stable and more satisfied societies than both the Britain and the USA.




mnottertail -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 8:48:21 AM)

A Beautiful Mind--- Russell Crowe

John is still kicking, last I heard.

Ron




seeksfemslave -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 8:55:42 AM)

Meatcleaver constantly refers to lack of social provision in the UK.
In fact there is far too much

We have young girls, feckless but fashionable, living off the state along with their sprogs.

Millions are spent on those who suddenly became ill when the unemployment benefits were restricted. I can understnad the shock tho, might have to get a job !

Advisors, experts and quangocrats on every subject under the Sun

the BBC

Educational institutions producing totally unemployable graduates
Parliament and Civil Service pensions.

The House of Lords: what is it now 250 pounds a day to have a nice snooze on a red leather sofa.

All the Army of local government social workers. Another scandal in the UK where a foster mother has been torturing her kids for 26 years. I bet "lessons will be learned" again.

Oh dear I feel unwell myself.




FirmhandKY -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 8:56:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

John Nash did not invent or discover game theory.  Generally John von Neumann is credited with that:


Actually this is stated in the film but you can't put everything into the OP. However, John Nash did much of the mathmatics and formulated much of it and he himself points out that he was 'mad' (paranoid) when he did and that people are much more complex.


1.  There is a major difference between "originating" game theory, and in doing work on a single aspect of it (Nash's equilibrum theorem).

2. My main point was that the film is apparently an attempt to discredit free markets, by discrediting game theory, by saying it is from a diseased and warped brain.  That is the message that was received by the viewers, was it not?

That makes it propaganda in my book.

3.  Whether or not Nash's was "the father of game theory" (which he was not), the real question is whether or not the math of game theory is accurate.  That's what good science (and reporting and thinking and logic and debate) should be about - the facts, and not the individual who "discovers" them.

If you don't like Columbus, and think he was mad and insane to push himself and 100s of sailors off into the unknown of a great sea ... doesn't change the fact that he "discovered" the New World for Europeans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Anti-capitalism, anyone?


Actually subversive and too complex to be an automaton in capitalist game theory.


Are you saying that you are subversive and too complex to believe in capitalism?

FirmKY




meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 9:13:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

3.  Whether or not Nash's was "the father of game theory" (which he was not), the real question is whether or not the math of game theory is accurate.  That's what good science (and reporting and thinking and logic and debate) should be about - the facts, and not the individual who "discovers" them.



Actually, it is not good science, it is voodoo. To say it is science is to mislead, giving people the impression that this is as sound as physics where theories are tested and then policed by peer groups. Game theory has been applied to practice in Britain and to say it has been found wanting to be charitable, it has proved a disaster. Just because is a speculative theory has had mathmatical formulae formulated to fit in with the theory doesn't make it science. Just because the world did not end in a nuclear holocaust in the cold war doesn't mean game theory worked. It could simply mean people were constrained by the moral dilemma of destroying the planet. If game theory really worked, why are Americans so concerned about muslims? Because they are human and subversive and refuse to be capitalist automatons I assume?




meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 9:19:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Meatcleaver constantly refers to lack of social provision in the UK.
In fact there is far too much

We have young girls, feckless but fashionable, living off the state along with their sprogs.

Millions are spent on those who suddenly became ill when the unemployment benefits were restricted. I can understnad the shock tho, might have to get a job !

Advisors, experts and quangocrats on every subject under the Sun

the BBC

Educational institutions producing totally unemployable graduates
Parliament and Civil Service pensions.

The House of Lords: what is it now 250 pounds a day to have a nice snooze on a red leather sofa.

All the Army of local government social workers. Another scandal in the UK where a foster mother has been torturing her kids for 26 years. I bet "lessons will be learned" again.

Oh dear I feel unwell myself.


Where did it all go wrong Seeks? Most intractable problems in British society today such as increased illiteracy, crime, single mothers, the growth of quangos, generations that have grown up in families where no one has worked, increased inefficiency in state provision, the privatisation nightmares, all stemmed from Margerat Thatcher.

Now tell me who was a disciple to game theory and applied it to her policies?.

You've guessed. Margerat Thatcher.




meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 9:23:52 AM)

FirmhandKY. - I'm no fan of Michael Moore but he did point out one thing in Bowling For Columbine that is so obvious to Europeans that visit North America. The USA as a society is paranoid and if you think it isn't, visit and compare the US to Canada. I'm sure you've been there. My guess is because game theory is natural to US society which is why you don't find a problem with it but I prefer to live in a society that isn't based on paranoia.




meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 9:38:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

This is stated as if the scientific community consists of sheep who eagerly jump on the bandwagon of any new fangled theory that comes along even if it comes from someone in a straight jacket.

That is hardly the case; usually new theories are met with skepticism and entrenched power brokers who have established their reputations by propogating the status quo. There is fierce resistance to change or adopting new ideas, and some will hold out until they die even if the new theory explains every inconsistency and gap in the old theory. So there has to be a lot of merit for new ideas to gain converts and eventually become widely accepted.



Game theory is hardly science, there are no experiments to test the theory and it is not tested but applied and where it has been applied (in Britain) it has proved hopeless at best and a disaster at worst. To call it science is to defame science. This is bad sociology given gravitas with mathmatical formulae. Marxism didn't work for all the same reasons this won't work, people are too complex and subversive, they are not simple market orientated automatons that behave predictably.




FirmhandKY -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 9:50:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

This is stated as if the scientific community consists of sheep who eagerly jump on the bandwagon of any new fangled theory that comes along even if it comes from someone in a straight jacket.

That is hardly the case; usually new theories are met with skepticism and entrenched power brokers who have established their reputations by propogating the status quo. There is fierce resistance to change or adopting new ideas, and some will hold out until they die even if the new theory explains every inconsistency and gap in the old theory. So there has to be a lot of merit for new ideas to gain converts and eventually become widely accepted.



Game theory is hardly science, there are no experiments to test the theory and it is not tested but applied and where it has been applied (in Britain) it has proved hopeless at best and a disaster at worst. To call it science is to defame science. This is bad sociology given gravitas with mathmatical formulae. Marxism didn't work for all the same reasons this won't work, people are too complex and subversive, they are not simple market orientated automatons that behave predictably.


meat, I really gotta call you on this one.

Game theory not math?  Not science?

You are smoking something, my friend.

FirmKY




meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 9:55:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

meat, I really gotta call you on this one.

Game theory not math?  Not science?

You are smoking something, my friend.

FirmKY



Game theory is about as scientific as scientific Marxism. At least Marx said he wasn't a Marxist. I didn't say game theory wasn't math, I implied using math doesn't make something science and game theory isn't science, it is speculation. In science when a theory doesn't work, scientists go back to the drawing board. Adherents of game theory are like ideological Marxists, if it doesn't work one way, they'll make it work another.




FirmhandKY -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 10:55:42 AM)

Find me a single mathematician or scientist that says "game theory" isn't science.

FirmKY




meatcleaver -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 11:13:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Find me a single mathematician or scientist that says "game theory" isn't science.

FirmKY



OK It's science that doesn't work. It was applied in Britain under Thatcher, it has created a huge disparity in wealth, reduced education performance, reduced the efficiency of medical provision, increased the prison population, increased mental health problems, the infrastructure has decayed and is in chaos, the break up of families has increased, the number of teenage mothers have increased exponentially compared to Britain's neighbours, drug use has increased exponentially compared to Britain's neighbours.

Hell. It has made Britain more like the USA with all its social problems and social depravation and injustices. If that is the desired results of game theory, I guess it is good science and is working fine. If it isn't, then it is bad science and voodoo. If I was you, I would compare Britain, France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries and see which functions best as a society. Britain has done well financially but as a society it has faired far worse than its neighbours which shunned game theory, where people are happier and live in more harmonious societies.

EDIT - The idea is that applying game theory to society would result in a functioning society where everyone gains because the market place responds to the selfishness of the individual. What has happened in Britain is private wealth for some and poverty for others and public poverty for all. A country where it is impossible to get around because the transport system repsponds to commercial pressures and not to the needs of the country. Go across the channel where they think game theory is thought of as a load of Anglo-Saxon shit. You find a road system second to none, a train system only rivaled by the Japanese, where traveling is a pleasure and not a chore, where there is public duty is still seen as a virtue and as such there is still civic pride which has long since gone in Britain.

Game theory? If game theory is a science, why couldn't it predict the results? If game theory is a science, why don't its adherents recognize its failures and go back to the drawing board and rethinK? I'll tell you why not, like always, follow the money!!!!!!




FirmhandKY -> RE: John Nash/Gaming Theory/Politics (3/21/2007 11:27:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Find me a single mathematician or scientist that says "game theory" isn't science.

FirmKY



OK It's science that doesn't work.


You are quibbling.

If it doesn't work, it's not science.  Science is defined as things that "work".

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It was applied in Britain under Thatcher, it has created a huge disparity in wealth, reduced education performance, reduced the efficiency of medical provision, increased the prison population, increased mental health problems, the infrastructure has decayed and is in chaos, the break up of families has increased, the number of teenage mothers have increased exponentially compared to Britain's neighbours, drug use has increased exponentially compared to Britain's neighbours.

Hell. It has made Britain more like the USA with all its social problems and social depravation and injustices. If that is the desired results of game theory, I guess it is good science and is working fine. If it isn't, then it is bad science and voodoo. If I was you, I would compare Britain, France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries and see which functions best as a society. Britain has done well financially but as a society it has faired far worse than its neighbours which shunned game theory, where people are happier and live in more harmonious societies.


I don't pretend to be an expert on recent British political and economic history.

However, as science will tell you, if the results of the experiment don't work out, the reasons are generally because: 1.  The theory was incorrect (the claim you are making), or 2.  The experiment was faulty.

I'd make the claim that the experiment was faulty.

Something else that you may not understand, is that game theory implies "rational actors", who always make judgements based simply on the "best economic payoff".

Two points:

1.  People are not rational actors.

2.  The "payoff" under negotiation in a "game" may not always be an "economic payoff".  In other words, the payoff may be in other values that humans hold dear.

FirmKY




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