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SimplyMichael -> Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 1:40:27 PM)

Powerline, April 25, 2003


Victor Davis Hanson for National Review Online suggests that the war against Saddam Hussein may actually have been the "hard part" and that there are many good reasons for optimism about what lies ahead in Iraq and elsewhere in the region.

Powerline, April 22, 2003


The end of the Iraq war
has slowed, but by no means stopped, "antiwar" activity.

Brendan Miniter, Assistant Editor, Wall St. Journal's Opinion Journal.com


It's amazing that more than two weeks into the liberation of Iraq--as residents in Basra are cheering British forces and Americans occupy Baghdad's airport and Saddam Hussein's main presidential palace--the antiwar crowd is still spinning a doomsday scenario. But it's getting harder and harder to take seriously the claim that freeing Iraq will make it harder to win the war on terrorism.

Indeed, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. U.S. forces apparently found chemical weapons yesterday.

Victor Davis Hanson, National Review Online, April 25, 2003


Iran may think it smart to use its fundamentalist agents to undermine the American achievement in Iraq. But look at the newly constituted map, where it suddenly finds itself surrounded by reformist movements. The omnipresence of the United States, twenty years of failure inside Iran, and the attractions of American popular culture will insidiously undermine the medieval reign of the mullahs faster than it can do harm to the foundations of democracy in Baghdad. . . .

We also must keep the projected costs in perspective. Despite the frenzied charges, we probably so far have spent no more $30 billion on the military operations of Operation Iraqi Freedom — not the "hundreds of billions" forecast by alarmists who sometimes slipped into "trillions."

Victor Davis Hanson, National Review Online, April 17, 2003


A fair historical assessment will soon emerge that attributes our victory not to Iraqi weaknesses per se. Rather it was the American ability on the ground and air in a matter of hours to decapitate the command-and-control apparatus of the Baathist regime that alone allowed bridges, oil wells, power plants, and harbors to be saved, and chemical weapons not to be used.

Powerline, April 26, 2003


It is easy enough in nearly all cases to determine who has won a war. However, I do not know of any criteria for determining who has won a peace. No doubt, this is why liberals have recently embraced the phrase. They can't deny that President Bush has won his two wars, and won them resoundingly. But liberals still can make the nebulous, unverifiable claim that he has lost, or will soon lose, the peace.

Powerline, April 21, 2003


Judith Miller, writing in Monday's New York Times, records what could be a breakthrough in the search for illicit weapons of mass destruction.

Some time ago, an Iraqi passed a note to American soldiers saying that he was a scientist who had worked in Iraq's chemical weapons program. The note languished for a while because the troops were fighting and because similar tips had proved to be blind alleys. But a few days ago, a MET Alpha chemical weapons detection team from the 101st Airborne tracked the man down, and he led them to buried chemical weapons components. So far, his story seems to check out--and if what is now being reported is true, it's dynamite.

The scientist stole documents, samples, and other evidence of the program that he worked on, and buried them in his back yard. He says that in the days before the war started, major efforts were undertaken to either destroy, bury or otherwise hide Iraq's illicit weapons. He reportedly has led American soldiers to at least one site where such weapons (or weapons components) are buried.

Powerline, on Dick Morris, April 15, 2003


"Never before have Americans had the chance to watch the establishment media while also seeing events unfold for themselves, live, on television. Our collective understanding of the dissonance between the two is breeding a distrust of the major news organs that will likely long outlast this war."

Morris' view is that establishment media like the New York Times, CBS, NBC and ABC have been shown to be absurdly pessimistic and wildly inaccurate:

"Each morning, we sat reading our copy of The New York Times, The Washington Post or the Los Angeles Times and ruminated on their prophecies of doom and quagmire. Then we looked up to see, on television, correspondents actually embedded with our troops reporting quick advances, one-sided firefights, melting opposition and, finally, welcoming crowds."

Hinderaker in particular posted joyous and glorious photograps almost on a daily basis showing how our trimphant troops were welcomed as liberators by Iraqis, and they usually included captions from Hinderaker like this, from April 30, 2003:


With the war in Iraq winding down, the daily photos in Army Times include scenes of joyful homecomings.

Charles Krauthammer, April 19, 2003


"The only people who think this wasn't a victory are Upper Westside liberals, and a few people here in Washington."

Given all of this profoundly false misinformation they were being fed, it is no wonder that the vast majority of Americans -- both Democrats and Republicans -- strongly supported the war. As Powerline celebrated back then:


The latest Fox News poll data are out, based on interviews conducted April 8-9. No surprises; 81% support the military action in Iraq, and 68% strongly support it. The President's approval rating is positive by a 71% to 20% margin. General satisfaction with the progress of the war and with our military is no surprise.

And Hinkeraker's comment from April 15, 2003 reminds us of the disgusting climate which these deceivers created -- where those who (accurately and wisely) questioned the war or disputed the war proponents' false propaganda were stigmatized with the worst labels possible:


I don't think we're at the point yet where Bill Clinton can officially be called a traitor, but he certainly is making a career out of giving aid and comfort to our enemies.

It is truly difficult to understand how these same people can continue to pompously opine on these matters, and still claim an entitlement to be listened to, without at least confessing their errors. The magnitude of misinformation and deceit in which our country was drowning during that time is difficult to convey. And from the fact that 70% of the country had been falsely persuaded that Saddam personally participated in the planning of the 9/11 attacks to the way in which our media mindlessly swallowed and regurgitated outright military fiction such as the Jessica Lynch fantasies, this carousel of shame and deceit is virtually endless.

There are not many episodes in our national history which can compete with the invasion of Iraq in terms of the profound failures of every one of our institutions -- failures which allowed this sort of deceit and detachment from reality to persist. But until we identify those responsible and end the influence which they continue to exert over our political dialogue, we will continue to be at risk of following them down these same deceitful, destructive paths.

UPDATE: One of the points to emphasize here, which may not have been sufficiently clear, is that these war advocates were not content to simply run around clucking about how right they were, but were insistent that those who oppose the war admit their error and be ashamed. Here is a particularly illustrative example from Glenn "Instapundit" Reynolds, on April 11, 2003 (h/t Zack and Tom Tomorrow):


"FOR SUCH AN ADVANCED SPECIES, THEY SURE KNOW HOW TO RUB IT IN."-- Marge Simpson

Yeah, there has been a lot of pro-war gloating. And I guess that Dawn Olsen's cautionary advice about gloating is appropriate. So maybe we shouldn't rub in just how wrong, and morally corrupt the antiwar case was. Maybe we should rise above the temptation to point out that claims of a "quagmire" were wrong -- again! -- how efforts at moral equivalence were obscenely wrong -- again! -- how the antiwar folks are still, far too often, trying to move the goalposts rather than admit their error -- again -- and how an awful lot of the very same people who spoke lugubriously about "civilian casualties" now seem almost disappointed that there weren't more -- again -- and how many people who spoke darkly about the Arab Street and citizens rising up against American "liberators" were proven wrong -- again -- as the liberators were seen as just that by the people they were liberating. And I suppose we shouldn't stress so much that the antiwar folks were really just defending the interests of French oil companies and Russian arms-deal creditors. It's probably a bad idea to keep rubbing that point in over and over again.




WyrdRich -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 3:31:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael




"FOR SUCH AN ADVANCED SPECIES, THEY SURE KNOW HOW TO RUB IT IN."-- Marge Simpson




    What she said.....


  Interesting piece.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 4:28:09 PM)

He's not rubbing anything in, Rich.

He's trying to make a vague point that he opposes the war, and then assumes that anyone who ever supported it was wrong - without having much of a historical understanding of politics, history, or warfare.

He is trying to make the claim that "the war is lost" without any appreciation of the historical context - because he doesn't understand history.

Like so many, to him, if it's not "over" in 30 minutes to an hours, with everyone hugging and kissing - it must mean it's a failure.

He longs and dreams of a world where bullies and tyrants come to see the "moral superiority" and "inherent correctness" of his position, and where wolves will lie down with lambs, and when the new sun rises in the morning peace, botherhood and understanding will just be breaking out all over.

But his anger and rage at anyone who disagrees with him - his sarcastic lashing out and insults to anyone who dares disagree with him - indicate that his "reality" meter is in conflict with his "dream" meter, and his frustration is then displayed for all to see when he posts.

Not, he's not rubbing in anything Rich.  He is just rubbing and rooting around in his own psyche, and exposing it to the world at large.

FirmKY




farglebargle -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 4:51:40 PM)

Well, considering that both the Shi'a and Sunni consider US Troops nothing but Target Practice to break up their civil war, how do YOU think the Occupation of Iraq could possibly be turned around?

All the TRADITIONAL Conservatives *I* know *KNEW* that the unsophisticated, oversimplified approach was doomed to failure. Then the Neocon Party Whores read us out of the party for our unconscionable act of calling out the fools.

When Rummy said, with a straight face, 6 months, we pretty much busted a gut laughing.

Whose laughing now? NO-ONE. That's who. 500,000 dead and one of the most secular governments lost to a Shi'a/Sunni civil war.





domiguy -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 5:18:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

He's not rubbing anything in, Rich.

He's trying to make a vague point that he opposes the war, and then assumes that anyone who ever supported it was wrong - without having much of a historical understanding of politics, history, or warfare.

He is trying to make the claim that "the war is lost" without any appreciation of the historical context - because he doesn't understand history.

Like so many, to him, if it's not "over" in 30 minutes to an hours, with everyone hugging and kissing - it must mean it's a failure.

He longs and dreams of a world where bullies and tyrants come to see the "moral superiority" and "inherent correctness" of his position, and where wolves will lie down with lambs, and when the new sun rises in the morning peace, botherhood and understanding will just be breaking out all over.

But his anger and rage at anyone who disagrees with him - his sarcastic lashing out and insults to anyone who dares disagree with him - indicate that his "reality" meter is in conflict with his "dream" meter, and his frustration is then displayed for all to see when he posts.

Not, he's not rubbing in anything Rich.  He is just rubbing and rooting around in his own psyche, and exposing it to the world at large.

FirmKY


I think you ahve finally lost your marbles...It's not an uncommon thing for a war to last for years...However, (I am too tired to Google the vast array of quotes available) this Country was "assured" by nearly every Republican leader that this war was going to be a walk in the park....This war had "FAILURE" written all over it from the start!  He's just pointing out the sources of Republicans so quick to stick a fork in the war as well as the Dems the first chance they got....

Instead of  "erring on the side of caution" they opened their mouths and inserted foot and once again here you are defending them instead of being critical...What gives with you? 

What happened to you guys? Weren't you ever young and had the balls to question your Government?  The true heroes were those who spoke their minds in the contrast of public opinion  as well as a Government that has gone clearly out of control....

Support them with your last breath, Firmhand...You do remind me so of all of those folks who defended Clinton for lying...Once again I must say, you have become everything you onced loathed.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 5:53:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I think you ahve finally lost your marbles...It's not an uncommon thing for a war to last for years...However, (I am too tired to Google the vast array of quotes available) this Country was "assured" by nearly every Republican leader that this war was going to be a walk in the park....


He quoted not a single "Republican leader" in the OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

This war had "FAILURE" written all over it from the start!  He's just pointing out the sources of Republicans so quick to stick a fork in the war as well as the Dems the first chance they got....


I've not said that many Republicans have a good sense of history either.  It's an American failing, not a "left vs right" one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Instead of  "erring on the side of caution" they opened their mouths and inserted foot and once again here you are defending them instead of being critical...What gives with you? 


Inserting foot in mouth is still going on - on both sides.

I'm not necessarily defending anyone.  I'm quite plainly saying that most people, especially on the "anti" side, do not have a very good appreciation of historical timescales, nor of history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

What happened to you guys? Weren't you ever young and had the balls to question your Government?  The true heroes were those who spoke their minds in the contrast of public opinion  as well as a Government that has gone clearly out of control....


domi, in case you don't know, I'm very much of an anti-government type of person.  The reason that you "see" me otherwise is based on the fact that many of the posts and threads here are in the "kooky-left" side of the equation, and so you've not seen me post on the "anti-government" side.

I tend to call myself a "rational anarchist" a la "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", and would likely be a leader of a revolutionary cell if the US government ever breached the walls of my confidence.  It has come close a few times.

I'm all for emotions and rants - but only if they have a logical sense to them, and a reasoned view of both sides of the equation.

One of the most important things is remember is that no side ever sees themselves as "the bad guys".  But some (such as the OP) see some absolutes in "the other side".  I find this one of the cardinal sins of humanity.  It is the beginning of dehumanization, and leads to nothing but genocide, murder, "religious wars" and the worst of humanity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Support them with your last breath, Firmhand...You do remind me so of all of those folks who defended Clinton for lying...Once again I must say, you have become everything you onced loathed.


I think one of the worst things in American politics today is the criminalization of political dissent.  And, while both sides of the ideological divide are guilty, it seems like the "dem" side is more cupable.

As for "defending to my last breath" ... I'll reserve my last breath to take down the people who come to kill the people I hold dear.  Little else warrants that level of commitment.

FirmKY




Sinergy -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 7:08:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

He's trying to make a vague point that he opposes the war, and then assumes that anyone who ever supported it was wrong - without having much of a historical understanding of politics, history, or warfare.



On the other hand, perhaps he is making a lucid point that the war supporters have used the tactic of attacking people who oppose the war by questioning their patriotism, support of the administration, failing to support our troops, and all sorts of emotional jingoistic nonsense, as opposed to having a rational discussion about the pros and cons of a largely unsupported decision to invading a sovereign nation.

It is not just about the nation we are invading.  It is about US prestige on the planet.  It is about coalition building to make the world a better place for everybody.  It is about not destroying the city of Pyhrra in order to save it.  It is all these things.

But when people bring these facets of the situation up, we get "you are not supporting our troops," or "you are unpatriotic," or "you dont support our Commander In Chief," or any of the other nonsensical comments made similarly during the last US fiasco in Indochina.

Sinergy




domiguy -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 8:58:43 PM)

More quotes:  Michael your right....This is fun!

Rumsfeld

"It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." -in Feb. 2003

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." –Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, when asked about weapons of mass destruction in an ABC News interview, March 30, 2003 (Source)

"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." –Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, June 24, 2003 (Source)   See Cheney quote March 16, 2003...(If it weren't so fucking sad it would be laughable.)

Cheney

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." --Vice President Dick Cheney, on the Iraq insurgency, June 20, 2005 (Source)

My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators." –Vice President Dick Cheney, "Meet the Press," March 16, 2003 (Source)

"We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." –Vice President Dick Cheney, "Meet The Press" March 16, 2003 (Source)

"In Iraq, a ruthless dictator cultivated weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. He gave support to terrorists, had an established relationship with al Qaeda, and his regime is no more." –Vice President Dick Cheney, Nov.7, 2003 (Source)

Wolfowitz

"It's hard to conceive that it would take more forces to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq than it would take to conduct the war itself and to secure the surrender of Saddam’s security forces and his army. Hard to imagine." –Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, testifying before the House Budget Committee prior to the Iraq war, Feb. 27, 2003 (Source)

"The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on, which was weapons of mass destruction, as the core reason." --Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, "Vanity Fair" interview, May 28, 2003 (Source)


Pres. Bush

"We found the weapons of mass destruction." –President Bush, in an interview with Polish television, May 29, 2003 (Source)

Edit...More pres Bush quotes...
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
 
I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
 
"You forgot Poland." —to Sen. John Kerry during the first presidential debate, after Kerry failed to mention Poland's contributions to the Iraq war coalition, Miami, Fla., Sept. 30, 2004
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I'm sure everything is going to work out swimmingly....Sleep tight, we are in good hands!!




dcnovice -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 9:13:29 PM)

quote:

My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators." –Vice President Dick Cheney, "Meet the Press," March 16, 2003 (Source)


Vanity Fair had a great illustration of this embroidered on a pillow.




dcnovice -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 9:15:23 PM)

quote:

Charles Krauthammer, April 19, 2003

"The only people who think this wasn't a victory are Upper Westside liberals, and a few people here in Washington."


And maybe one or two of the million refugees who've fled Iraq.




domiguy -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 9:15:44 PM)


More quotes:  Michael your right....This is fun!

Rumsfeld

"It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." -in Feb. 2003

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." –Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, when asked about weapons of mass destruction in an ABC News interview, March 30, 2003 (Source)

"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." –Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, June 24, 2003 (Source)   *****See Cheney quote March 16, 2003...(If it weren't so fucking sad it would be laughable.)

Cheney

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." --Vice President Dick Cheney, on the Iraq insurgency, June 20, 2005 (Source)

My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators." –Vice President Dick Cheney, "Meet the Press," March 16, 2003 (Source)

***"We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." –Vice President Dick Cheney, "Meet The Press" March 16, 2003 (Source)

"In Iraq, a ruthless dictator cultivated weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. He gave support to terrorists, had an established relationship with al Qaeda, and his regime is no more." –Vice President Dick Cheney, Nov.7, 2003 (Source)

Wolfowitz

"It's hard to conceive that it would take more forces to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq than it would take to conduct the war itself and to secure the surrender of Saddam’s security forces and his army. Hard to imagine." –Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, testifying before the House Budget Committee prior to the Iraq war, Feb. 27, 2003 (Source)

"The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on, which was weapons of mass destruction, as the core reason." --Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, "Vanity Fair" interview, May 28, 2003 (Source)


Pres. Bush

"We found the weapons of mass destruction." –President Bush, in an interview with Polish television, May 29, 2003 (Source)

Edit...More pres Bush quotes...
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
 
I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
 
"You forgot Poland." —to Sen. John Kerry during the first presidential debate, after Kerry failed to mention Poland's contributions to the Iraq war coalition, Miami, Fla., Sept. 30, 2004
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I'm sure everything is going to work out swimmingly....Sleep tight, we are in good hands!!




SusanofO -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 9:20:36 PM)

Gosh when I read most Rumsfeld quotes, I almost don't know whether to laugh or cry, they are such nonsense. For heaven's sake - the man has a Ph.D. I know that must mean there is a brain in there somewhere. But where?

- Susan




Sinergy -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/20/2007 9:23:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Gosh when I read most Rumsfeld quotes, I almost don't know whether to laugh or cry, they are such nonsense. For heaven's sake - the man has a Ph.D. I know that must mean there is a brain in there somewhere. But where?

- Susan


A great book, although not specifically on the Iraq Fiasco, is the Bush Dyslexicon.

Sinergy




SusanofO -> RE: Republicans Firm Grasp of History (3/21/2007 12:19:59 AM)

Good to know. Thanks (it sounds unintentionally funny - that's one of my favorite kinds of books). [:D]

- Susan




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