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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/19/2007 2:48:55 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

most of the things that Clinton was so popular for, fiscal restraint and welfare reform, were forced on him by the republican held congress


If the republicans "forced" fiscal restraint on Clinton, what the fuck happened under Bush?  Clinton could have simply not done anything and vetoed everything.  Instead, he created elegant and effective comprimises that worked.

Under Clinton and Carter the economic growth (GDP) was created by the private sector.  Under Raygun and Bush, it was funded by government borrowing.  Which is more "real" to you? 

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/19/2007 2:52:03 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Governments by and large never have and never will make people "happy".

What they do do is create a legion of self righteous interfering very very expensive employess who know whats right for everbody and cost the very people they believe they are helping considerable amounts in TAX.


Seeks, I couldn't have said it any better!

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/19/2007 3:17:37 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Governments by and large never have and never will make people "happy".


My sales rise faster under Democrats and my profits rise faster under Republicans.

(Both of those things make me happy). 

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/19/2007 3:30:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I am well fed and have the luxury of time to spend in Chat due to the Marketplace.  I have basically unlimited opprotunities for education due to the marketplace.  And I get a much wider variety of options in my life due to the marketplace.  I think the idea that anyone could be 100% satisfied is nonsense, under any circumstance or system.

But really what better alternative do you have than the capitalist market place?   Sharia Islam?  Communism or a variant on such?  

Does sound like an interesting progam though, I would like to see it some time.

I am curious though as to what new disorders in the 90s you refer to.  I know that some new ones were added in the 90s, but the work to include them started long before.  As did the doping of kids.  It seemed to be the result of Sociologists and Pshycologists, who are mostly left wing, especially sociologists.


Depression, stress (which incidently is not due to heavy workload or mentally taxing work but functioning like a machine.), mental breakdown, various psychosis. Hell, look at what the health services of prescribing to supress human emotions. The point is that application of market practices to the general function of society warps the human condition and hence people need drugs to function in a way markets demand, where the whole point of the market philosophy according to its proponents is that the market functions to human demands and not vice versa. Politicians and people (like yourself by the sounds of it) who gain from the markets see it working, for the vast majority and for the good functioning of society it doesn't, their freedom is curtailed. The market mechanism is the dominant force in society and people are subservient to it. It might be easier to think of a hybrid of Brave New World and 1984.

Actually that pretty much sums it all up. You have the Strausian philosophy at work in the USA at the moment, where there is always a threat from an ideological enemy ready to destroy you(1984) and then the general population is ruled by the markets and fed constant propaganda telling you that the market is good for you. Meanwhile people who breakdown because of the unnatural state of being forced on them by the markets are fed prozac (or some sonambulant medium as in Brave New World if I remember right). However, whichever way you look at it you aren't free, you just think you are, the markets have ring fenced your freedom and you are an automaton that consumes, not for the benefit of yourself but for the benefit of the market.



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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/19/2007 4:12:35 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Governments by and large never have and never will make people "happy".

My sales rise faster under Democrats and my profits rise faster under Republicans.
(Both of those things make me happy). 


Griswold : what you are saying is that you are selling something that people want , and in your economy can afford, to buy. Which government "jobsworth" sorted that out for you ?

MC while free markets may not be perfect, and indeed when they  really begin to work many soon start squealing, eg US applying tariffs on European steel imports, or are circumvented see subsidies paid to European and US farmers, can you possibly deny the satisfactions that have come the way of consumers over the last 50 years. Think for example of the real price of a television set  1955 to 2005.

The only exception I can see is the price of Beer in UK pubs. lol
That was meant as one of my little jokes , but what is the root cause of the high price?   TAXES applied by governments thats what !!!

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 12:23:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

MC while free markets may not be perfect, and indeed when they  really begin to work many soon start squealing, eg US applying tariffs on European steel imports, or are circumvented see subsidies paid to European and US farmers, can you possibly deny the satisfactions that have come the way of consumers over the last 50 years. Think for example of the real price of a television set  1955 to 2005.



The idiot eye in the corner of the room over which most people consume their propaganda is hardly a substitute for life and is irrelevent if it is cheap or not. One is probaly better without one on reflection. Not wanting to go back to the good old days of the 50s where people were deferent to their superiors and women knew their place (which they didn't lol), life was slower and communities were able to cope with deviancy and aged people in their midst. Life was more naturally paced. The market has stopped making life better and is causing all sorts of psychological problems and dependencies and people are living for the market and not for themselves as people. We are slaves to the market, where is the life in that? As I pointed out, it is a Brave New World.

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 2:11:16 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

Meatcleaver (talking about TV)
The idiot eye in the corner of the room over which most people consume their propaganda is hardly a substitute for life and is irrelevent if it is cheap or not


Well stop watching the BBC then, with its anti Blair and one sided anti Iraq invasion broadcasts.
Pro that govnt scientist who commited suicide, Kelly was it? Proven liar and fantasist he was.
Not forgetting "we must not alienate Muslims in our War on Terror" concerns.

Ooh yes and the BBC wants more of your money to carry on doing a job that we all agree is wonderful. Dont we ?
I'm speaking of the BBC's coverage of controversial political events.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/20/2007 2:34:38 AM >

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 2:57:30 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Well stop watching the BBC then, with its anti Blair and one sided anti Iraq invasion broadcasts.
Pro that govnt scientist who commited suicide, Kelly was it? Proven liar and fantasist he was.
Not forgetting "we must not alienate Muslims in our War on Terror" concerns.

Ooh yes and the BBC wants more of your money to carry on doing a job that we all agree is wonderful. Dont we ?
I'm speaking of the BBC's coverage of controversial political events.


Actually Kelly wasn't a proven liar and a fantasist, if he was a proven liar and a fantasist no doubt WMDs would have been found in Iraq. The BBC were basically caught on a legal technicality not the substance of what they claimed because the Hutton inquiry was so narrowly defined. Even then, in any objective terms the Hutton inquiry was a whitewash.

I don't pay for the BBC, I get it in a cable package. I guess I pay for it in the bundle but I don't pay as myuch as you.

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 5:03:54 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Kelly consistantly, to the point of reprimand went outside his job remit and contacted the media. Dont forget Civil Servants sign the official secrets act.  Yes I know some leaks produce good outcomes but his as I recall were selling.....Kelly. He gave out policy info. to which he was not privy.
He specifically denied speaking to a BBC reporter, damned if I can think of his name. 
A tape recording of the 'phone convo has been played.

By the way I dont mean Gilligan, whose broadcast started all the problems. Another point is that Gilligan said his source, Kelly, was closely involved in compiling the "sexed up" report. Most likely  Kelly told him this. It wasn't true

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/20/2007 5:16:44 AM >

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 5:16:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Kelly consistantly, to the point of reprimand went outside his job remit and contacted the media. Dont forget Civil Servants sign the official secrets act.  Yes I know some leaks produce good outcomes but his as I recall were selling.....Kelly. He gave out policy info. to which he was not privy.
He specifically denied speaking to a BBC reporter, damned if I can think of his name. 
A tape recording of the 'phone convo has been played.


I remember Clive Ponting signing the official secrets act and was taken to court and the jury found him innocent despite the judge directing a guilty verdict. My guess is that the same would have happened to Kelly because most people know the official secrets act is a ruse to prevent the public getting politically embarrassing information.

He didn't specifically deny talking to a BBC reporter.

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 7:37:06 AM   
cloudboy


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This kind of makes me want to read Dream of a Ridiculous Man again, by Dostoevsky.

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 9:01:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


This kind of makes me want to read Dream of a Ridiculous Man again, by Dostoevsky.


Now that is a return to school days but it is an apt story for the thread.

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 1:34:40 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		I found the programme quite a sad reflection of British and US society, and also very fuckin' disturbing. We have these ultra right-wingers, with their consumerism approach to life, heavily influencing human behaviour. I mean, what sort of person thinks that humans are no more complex than just wanting to buy and sell items? These people are the walking dead, but they're managing to sell their ideas with the result being the rich get richer and the poor get poorer - and most of those in the middle don't seem to care.

Most of us don't have the first clue who is really running our countries, their motivations and their ability to lead us down their chosen path.

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 2:55:48 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Lets ask the masses then ....what do they want .....
Culture and education ?
or
a better car, nice television, plenty of sex, free beer and their local Football team to win on Saturday ?

Ooh and send the local crims. to prison....for a long long time.


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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 4:47:21 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Lets ask the masses then ....what do they want .....
Culture and education ?
or
a better car, nice television, plenty of sex, free beer and their local Football team to win on Saturday ?



Sadly the majority of people want trinkets that distract them from life rather than living life. I know everyone says money isn't everything but it obviously is to the majority of people but it seems to me they don't understand or maybe don't want to believe they've been sold a pig in a poke. I wonder how many people get to retirement age, have all the material goods and suddenly realise they have never lived?

I've had my share of new cars, the novelty of one lasts about a month. The novelty of buying a new TV about a weekend. The novelty of buying a new shirt lasts until you get out of the shop. A great book lasts a lifetime, as does a great concert, a great journey and most importantly, great friendships. Great experiences you carry with you throughout your life. Going to work to buy material comforts is not a great experience, at least to me it never has been. Very few of us have ever had jobs that are truely interesting and intellectually consuming.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 7:28:18 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

is that a leading indicator of a longterm decline in the stockmarket?

a. greenspan


I did a double take when I read this and thought you were wondering if a masturbating parrot is a sign of a longterm decline in the stock market.

I have heard weirder things.

Sinergy

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 8:52:50 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Depression, stress (which incidently is not due to heavy workload or mentally taxing work but functioning like a machine.), mental breakdown, various psychosis.

All of these have deeper roots than the 90s, and in America are generally pushed by leftists.

Both 1984 and Brave New World were about socialism, not the market.  In both of those societies the Market was eliminated and replaced with a "fair" Socialist system.  And it was a form of hell.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 3/20/2007 8:55:19 PM >

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RE: Economists and Psychopaths - 3/20/2007 9:08:18 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		"However, whichever way you look at it you aren't free, you just think you are, the markets have ring fenced your freedom and you are an automaton that consumes, not for the benefit of yourself but for the benefit of the market. "

I guess it depends on how you define freedom.  Perhaps you are an automaton, I do not feel that way.  I started my own bussiness from scratch, built it to the point where I bought a home, and am now deciding what adventure I want to pursue next, and then will sell my Bussiness at a handsome profit.  I exploit no one and am a net positive when it comes to Greenhouse gas emmissions.  I am part of the solution and make $ at the same time.  Creating a service and finding customers was a  very interesting and intellectually consuming form of employment.  It gives me the time, $ and physicall space to have a music studio in my home and I am involved in 2 music projects.  Sure at times the actually labor is kind of dull, but it beats being a farmer, nomadic hunter or piling rocks all my life for the tomb of our God King. 

I would be interested in hearing YOUR definiton of "Freedom" Meat.  Is anyone ever actually "free"?

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