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meatcleaver -> Economists and Psychopaths (3/18/2007 3:20:13 PM)

I have been watching an interesting documentary on BBC about how....well, let me quote.

Adam Curtis continues his series of films explaining the origins of our contemporary, narrow and limited idea of freedom.

This episode tells the story of how, in the 1990s, politicians from both right and left tried to apply an idea of freedom modelled on the freedom of the market to all other areas of society.

Behind it was a scientific model of ourselves as simplified robots, rational calculating beings whose behaviour and even feelings could be predicted by numbers. Out of this came today's systems of management - from performance targets to the new categories of mental disorder, and reading the genetic codes buried inside us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings/programme.shtml?day=today&service_id=4224&filename=20070318/20070318_2100_4224_8729_60

A couple of interesting points came up.

1. Under Clinton, the incomes of the poor in America dropped over his period in office, middle incomes had a slight increase and the income of the rich went up by by more than 300% by him abdicating political power to the free markets.

2. There are only two groups in society that consistly act rationally in psychological tests....economists and psychopaths.

The main gist of the programme was about people having their freedom limited in both view and scope by politicians abdicating political power to the free market as with Clinton. Most of the theory comes from John Forbes Nash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium and his game theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory . Nash questions his own work saying he was mentally ill at the time of formulating it with paranoid scitzophrenia and goes onto to say, humans are far more complex than pure rationality!

Once again we have been sold a pig in a poke by gullible politicians, no doubt capitalists think this abdication of political power to the markets is a good thing. no doubt capitalists think the human condition is robotic genetic behaviour.

Are you a robot controled by numbers and your genes and fully satisfied by the capitalist market place or do you think the human condition is more complex than the market place?



popeye1250 -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/18/2007 4:28:17 PM)

And a lot of big corporations think that a North American Union is a good idea too.
I don't think so.
Just because they think that they can bypass the congress doesn't make it law.



NorthernGent -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/18/2007 5:35:09 PM)

I've just watched the same programme.

I thought the recategorisation of mental disorder was really interesting i.e. their opinion that many of the emotions being described as disorder are simply normal human emotions such as loneliness and sadness. The implication being that the breadth of human emotion is being unnecessarily controlled through mind altering drugs in order to standardise human endeavour. What fascinates me is that these mental disorders are based on a checklist and, consequently, whomever designed the checklist, is basically controlling and standardising human emotion and behaviour through prozac and the likes. Then there are the other implications of creating robots for business interests and losing sight of who we are.

In terms of the market providing for society, there was an important distinction between today's free market advocates and the likes of Adam Smith. In the 18th century, it was generally believed that the market (on its own) could not generate social contentment and that there had to be social provision running alongside the market for the greater good of society. Today's free market advocates (covered in the programme) actually believe the free market can give people everything they need out of life based on the assumption that it is our buying habits which most accurately reflect who we are. I found this such a strange concept to grasp i.e. one where we're so predictable, our decision making is always rational and we're not influenced by environmental factors such as advertising.

A real eye-opener is the power these people hold i.e. the likes of John Nash and Alan Greenspan. According to the programme, their way of thinking, and direct coercion from the likes of Greenspan, swayed Clinton to reduce public spending programmes - a decision which drastically reduced the real terms income of the poor in the US. So, there is basically a select group of mathematicians and economists holding court with their statistics based approach rather than human emotion. It makes my piss boil that our government copied Clinton's model which is at least in part based on core right-wing principles of reduced government responsibility and placing the health of society in the hands of the market.








seeksfemslave -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/18/2007 5:41:52 PM)

Governments by and large never have and never will make people "happy".

What they do do is create a legion of self righteous interfering very very expensive employess who know whats right for everbody and cost the very people they believe they are helping considerable amounts in TAX.



Rule -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/18/2007 5:54:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
2. There are only two groups in society that consistly act rationally in psychological tests....economists and psychopaths.

The logical inferences from this fact are:
1. Psychopaths are potentially the best economists,
2. Economists are psychopaths.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/18/2007 6:07:02 PM)

Economics is a bastard pseudo discipline in that it is totally incapable of producing meaningful , accurate predictions about anything. Like weather forecasting ,Astrology and Cosmology , looking backwards.



meatcleaver -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 1:53:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I've just watched the same programme.

I thought the recategorisation of mental disorder was really interesting i.e. their opinion that many of the emotions being described as disorder are simply normal human emotions such as loneliness and sadness. The implication being that the breadth of human emotion is being unnecessarily controlled through mind altering drugs in order to standardise human endeavour. What fascinates me is that these mental disorders are based on a checklist and, consequently, whomever designed the checklist, is basically controlling and standardising human emotion and behaviour through prozac and the likes. Then there are the other implications of creating robots for business interests and losing sight of who we are.

In terms of the market providing for society, there was an important distinction between today's free market advocates and the likes of Adam Smith. In the 18th century, it was generally believed that the market (on its own) could not generate social contentment and that there had to be social provision running alongside the market for the greater good of society. Today's free market advocates (covered in the programme) actually believe the free market can give people everything they need out of life based on the assumption that it is our buying habits which most accurately reflect who we are. I found this such a strange concept to grasp i.e. one where we're so predictable, our decision making is always rational and we're not influenced by environmental factors such as advertising.

A real eye-opener is the power these people hold i.e. the likes of John Nash and Alan Greenspan. According to the programme, their way of thinking, and direct coercion from the likes of Greenspan, swayed Clinton to reduce public spending programmes - a decision which drastically reduced the real terms income of the poor in the US. So, there is basically a select group of mathematicians and economists holding court with their statistics based approach rather than human emotion. It makes my piss boil that our government copied Clinton's model which is at least in part based on core right-wing principles of reduced government responsibility and placing the health of society in the hands of the market.



Good post.

It is quite chilling how in the people in question have reduced the human condition to an autmaton in the market place, 1984 crossed with Brave New World and we are living it. The most frightening thing is that the bulk of the population is responding and seem to classify their discontent with stress or other mental disorder or at least this is being done for them and they are accepting it. In such a society drug addicts, criminals and any other deviancy is quite rational because they are refusing to be classified and categorised and retaining a certain amount of freedom. I've never felt comfortable with Blair's view of the world and could never bring myself to vote for him, I couldn't put my finger on what troubled me but this programme discribed what has been troubling me.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 5:29:09 AM)

I just say that Economics , Sociology , Psychology/Psychiatry are NOT the same things. All may be used as political tools.

Economics cannot possibly reach down to the micro aspects of peoples lives. What government economists purport to do, but fail miserably, is to rationally control finacial/business activity at the macro level.



pahunkboy -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 5:46:17 AM)

can u say irrational exhuberance?  even today when greenspan talks ppl listen.

hmmm- my parrot hasnt been masterbating lately....



mnottertail -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 5:48:36 AM)

is that a leading indicator of a longterm decline in the stockmarket?

a. greenspan



seeksfemslave -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 5:54:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
hmmm- my parrot hasnt been masturbating lately....


Well if thats true Pahunk I say be careful what you do if the Parrot gets out of its cage. Always look him in the eye !



pahunkboy -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 6:20:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
hmmm- my parrot hasnt been masturbating lately....


Well if thats true Pahunk I say be careful what you do if the Parrot gets out of its cage. Always look him in the eye !


lol- i have come to love and hate that bird at same time. anyhow he is part of my "family" and he will be moving WITH me. as per my dog.

really and truly we have a love-hate relationship.

but at least the parrot is available when humans dont take phone calls........

so it is cheap entertainment for me. :-)



LadyEllen -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 6:55:18 AM)

Mr Curtis I believe, must be in error, for such is not the world promoted to us by our leaders, under whom we prosper as good citizens. And as a good citizen, who believes all that is forthcoming from our leaders to be wisdom, and their every deed to derive from their sole motivation of improving my life, and their every law (even, and especially those I dont understand) to be an honour to obey, I find his views to be puzzling to say the least.

We work longer hours now than ever before - because of course, the wise guidance of our leaders means there is more work to do. And more work means greater wealth with which to acquire that which demonstrates our status as good citizens. And being such good citizens, we are also allowed credit cards, wherewith to acquire even greater status by way of purchases, which whilst their prices rise constantly due to the actions of enemies of our leaders, this rise requiring even greater effort on our part to overcome merely means that we have a worthy part in the struggle against the enemies.

We have the privilege also of financially supporting the righteous wars which our leaders in their wisdom begin, and joy beyond joy the privilege of offering up our sons and daughters for that conflict, to assure them of a legacy. Surely we have our leaders to thank for this enormous change in society, where we sacrifice our children to their glory rather than the glory of some unelected monarch?

And, oh lucky generation! We are listed, numbered, categorised and sorted, watched wherever we go and subject to the munificent protection afforded to us by our leaders too, who with the sole aim of benefitting us and increasing our happy subjection, gather every detail of our lives together to profile us by income, voting habits, associations, preferences and dislikes, health and sickness, that our role in the greater glory which is our leaders' wondrous progress may be maximised.

Mr Curtis is clearly therefore either a criminal, intent on telling lies about our society with the aim of causing unrest and insurrection, or mentally ill. Either way, dont worry; we have a categorised form wherewith to analyse him for further treatment with a view to returning him to the happiness that is the right opinion.

E



NorthernGent -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 7:17:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Good post.

It is quite chilling how in the people in question have reduced the human condition to an autmaton in the market place, 1984 crossed with Brave New World and we are living it. The most frightening thing is that the bulk of the population is responding and seem to classify their discontent with stress or other mental disorder or at least this is being done for them and they are accepting it. In such a society drug addicts, criminals and any other deviancy is quite rational because they are refusing to be classified and categorised and retaining a certain amount of freedom. I've never felt comfortable with Blair's view of the world and could never bring myself to vote for him, I couldn't put my finger on what troubled me but this programme discribed what has been troubling me.


There were parts of the programme which made perfect sense.....the effective disenfranchisement of the population through any vote being a vote for big business interests, the widening wealth gap, a return to 19th century ideals of a market-driven society masquerading as modernisation. What I didn't appreciate is the level to which spin doctors, statisticians and right-wing economists have a grip on politics. Throw in their media allies and its no wonder people in this country are so obsessed with their personal wealth and status.

On the mental disorder point, it is a fascinating concept that anti-depressants serve to standardise and generate more efficient human beings by countering certain human emotions, and that the whims of a think-tank have termed acceptable human emotions and what is mental disorder. The idea that human emotions are being altered in order to make us more predictable and predisposed to a market driven world is interesting.






KenDckey -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 7:32:07 AM)

I just went through the BBC America program guide and could't find it   I would have liked to have seen this program



ferryman777 -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 7:45:50 AM)

Just a point.....in another thread, I was reminded Reagan was subject to a Dem house, and had no power, therfore could not be called accountable for his actions.

By the same token......Clinton was subjecvt to a GOP house......could be argued he had no power. Therefore, could not be held accountable for his actions?



ferryman777 -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 7:52:30 AM)

Fantastic.......There is a book.... Happy Slaves, A critique of consent theory by Don herzog.

Worth the read.

Thread is most educational.



luckydog1 -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 1:18:13 PM)

Ferryman, except for the fact that Clinton had a Democratic Senate and house for 2 years.  And it is true most of the things that Clinton was so popular for, fiscal restraint and welfare reform, were forced on him by the republican held congress.   In the last 3/4 of his terms.  And why do you have to lie about what I said.  I said the Dem house had a role in what was done under Reagan, and they did.  You tried to pretend I said he had zero power in the other thread, but thats not what I said.   So bassically as long as you are allowed to change what others say, you are always right.  Kind of sad.  It is so easy to go back and check what was actually said in these forums.



luckydog1 -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 1:31:59 PM)

I am well fed and have the luxury of time to spend in Chat due to the Marketplace.  I have basically unlimited opprotunities for education due to the marketplace.  And I get a much wider variety of options in my life due to the marketplace.  I think the idea that anyone could be 100% satisfied is nonsense, under any circumstance or system.

But really what better alternative do you have than the capitalist market place?   Sharia Islam?  Communism or a variant on such?  

Does sound like an interesting progam though, I would like to see it some time.

I am curious though as to what new disorders in the 90s you refer to.  I know that some new ones were added in the 90s, but the work to include them started long before.  As did the doping of kids.  It seemed to be the result of Sociologists and Pshycologists, who are mostly left wing, especially sociologists.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Economists and Psychopaths (3/19/2007 2:45:10 PM)

The "marketplace" is a giant myth, although one much beloved of mainstream economists.  Think about this, if price was such a major factor, why do most ads not mention price and companies have large and VERY well paid staffs of salespeople?  In fact, until you get to senior management, salespeople are often the highest paid corporate employees!

All of the NIEs had heavy control of domestic markets and operated directly counter to the concept of free markets.  China is doing quite well and we all know that market is tightly controlled by the government and that foreign competition is tightly controlled.  "Lawlessness" that supports the economy like intellectual piracy and environmental pollution are "ignored" despite heavy pressure from the West.  It was only long after they had become highly competitive that they relaxed that control but without it, they would still be economic backwaters.

In fact, if one looks at the countries that have adopted real "free market" reforms as expoused by the IMF and the WorldBank they are all mired in debt, their domestic economy in shambles, and whatever domestic primary resources are owned by TNCs.



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