RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati

RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (Full Version)

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puella -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 8:11:29 AM)
Actually, yes I can. I have worked for large companies who subcontract out. It is their legal obligation to make sure that those whom they employ as a subcontractor are legal, reptuable businesses, and if something goes wrong due to the lack of oversite on the contracting company's part... they are legally liable, just as the contracted company is. I absolutely think that they have to be responsible for who they decide to hire, just like everyone else.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 8:45:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: puella You say partisanship as if I were were a Democrat, which I am not. No, not partisanship as if you were a Democrat. partiality: an inclination to favor one group or view or opinion over alternatives The view that you are "partial to" is that Bush is an evil man, and there is absolutely nothing good that can come from him, his actions, his beliefs or his Administration. They are quite a few people like you, nothing unusually about it. It has even been given a name: Bush Derangement Syndrome or BDS. It's a pyschological displacement of fear and uncertainity for things that you can't control unto a person or figure that you can place blame instead, regardless of the reality. Personally, I don't particularly like Bush either. I rate his general performance at about a C. I don't like his policies on immigration, I think his signing the last bankruptcy bill was unconscionable, I don't think he is a conservative, I don't like the fact that he has never meet a spending bill he won't sign, or that he apparently thinks that bigger government is better government. But I also do not think everything he does is evil, purely for personal gain, or at the behest of "big oil". I do think he has it mostly right in the US's reaction to terrorists. I consider my stance and beliefs to be based on facts and reality, and I will congratulate as well as decry his actions, depending on the real world effect, my principal beliefs, and my perceived view of his intent. People with BDS (and there was a Clinton Derangement Syndrome or CDS before there was a BDS, btw) always see the half empty glass. I think you are an intelligent woman. Just attempt to step back and look at your political posts , and do a little self looking. Maybe I'm wrong, and misreading you. I'd like to think I am, but so far your words don't lead me to anything but a BDS conclusion. quote: ORIGINAL: puella I think that Bush touring South America is both too late in the game to make any difference and also wholly inappropriate given all that is transpiring within our own nation right now. It is just another photo op tour with a cause he has not been viewed as completely tainted and incompetent in dealing with, yet.... And if he didn't make a tour I can hear the complaints now: Bush doesn't care about immigration, or the people of South or Central America. He refuses to even visit them! How can he come to appreciate or understand what the peoples of the region are going through, and why they fight to come to American, or what the dastardly effects Big Business has on them, if he refuses to meet them on their home turf? He's just an uncaring and cold man. quote: ORIGINAL: puella The fact of the matter is that during his administration, and many before his, there has been no real enforcement of immigration laws upon big business... maybe the occasional bust here and there, but that is about it. For the most part, we spend our time chasing around trying to round up (or wall off) the immigrants themselves which is like putting a bandaid on a weeping tumor. No big argument here, but I do want to highlight your own words: "and many before his". Seems like a systemic problem, and not specifically and only Bush's. quote: ORIGINAL: puella This article is ironic not only in that the commander in chief of the military is down south talking out of both sides of his mouth about fixing immigration problems and smiling for pictures, but that our military is contracting sweatshops who employ said immigrants... The irony is both perfect and perfectly sad. What this article illustrates is not my partisanship, but my despair at what is happening in my country. And what is causing your "despair at what is happening in my country"? FirmKY

farglebargle -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 8:47:49 AM)
What if Bush is Evil? Seen by his works, he's not doing Jesus'.

puella -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 9:26:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Your partisanship is showing. You said partisanship, not I, hence my distinction that I am not a Democrat. I do not believe any man is inherently good or evil. That is a very easy method for us to absolve and damn individuals in a very primitive way. I think that every person is the measure of the decisions they choose to make. I think that George Bush has made monumental poor decision after monumental poor decision, in regards to the good of the country. He has however, made brilliant decisions for other interests, most of which I fundamentally disagree with for a person who is committed to serving his nation as a public servant and as one who had taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. I take particular umbrage at being called deranged, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am not afraid of George Bush. I do not think that he is incapable of doing good things. He has done some good things, and there is always the possibility that he will make the decision to do so again. I am submissive, trust me when I tell you that I have no issues with things I can not control. [;)] I am also well aware of my political posts. Just because you do not hold the same views that I do, does not make them any less valid or acceptable. I have never posted information that I could not back up with fact, and more often than not can send (and do send) linkage to that proof. When I have been shown to have faulty information, I willingly apologize. I think that this is not the time for the President of the United States to be traipsing about South America. We have the largest military hospital in complete scandal, we have a crisis in the middle east which claims the lives of Americans every day, we have just had a jury convict one of the highest level aids in his administration for perjury and obstruction of justice, we have the Attorney General he appointed now embroiled in an alarming unraveling of what looks like will result in another indictment, if he does not first resign, the stock market is fluctuating wildly due to the great dependency we have established on China and their control over the notes of our national debt... the list is endless. The issue of immigration is a problem and needs to be dealt with... it is not the greatest peril in terms of human life in our country right now. His trip to South America should have happened long ago, or should take place when our country doesn't need the head of it's Executive branch here at home. Now.. why I titled this article ironic is because... when the Commander in Chief of the Military of the United States is visiting the countries we are currently having the most trouble with illegal immigration in some sort of effort to deal with the problem, the Military of the United States is found to be contributing to the problem itself... well that is irony! Irony noun 1. witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"; "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Jonathan Swift [syn: sarcasm] 2. incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs; "the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" 3. a trope that involves incongruity between what is expected and what occurs Welcome back and congratulations, btw.

popeye1250 -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 10:56:26 AM)
Firmhand, correct, some on the left do say that about Bush "not caring" about Cent. and S. American countries. Here's a NEWSFLASH for them, Bush is not supposed to be caring about them! We're Paying him to care about our country. "That's not part of the Job Description, Big Guy!" I wonder if we need to start having "Job Descriptions" for senators and congressmen? After all they get confused it seems. They are elected to do what we tell them to do, not what they "think" should be done. I'm really not interested in what my congressman and senators "think", I want them interested in what *I* think! They work for me, I don't work for them! And the left is up to their usual tricks again, calling these people who were busted in Massachusetts "poor immigrants" when in fact they are not "immigrants" at all but Illegal Aliens! I don't know why they still try to pull that trick on people. Do they still think anyone will believe them? And as for govt. contracts EVERYONE these days knows that it is a Federal Felony to hire, shelter or harbor illegal aliens. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to expect govt. contractors to NOT COMMIT FEDERAL FELONYS while operating under U.S. government contracts!

Vendaval -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 1:30:34 PM)
FHKY, Nowhere in her posts do I find puella to be deranged. Her posts indicate a rational mind and the ability to talk graciously about very inflammatory subjects. She is also very humane in her responses. I also feel strongly about the policies of the current administration. The Patriot Act, the War in Iraq, the lies and corruption all make me very outraged and angry. And congratulations on the new move for losttreasure and being able to spend more time together. Regards, Vendaval

FirmhandKY -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 2:13:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval FHKY, Nowhere in her posts do I find puella to be deranged. Her posts indicate a rational mind and the ability to talk graciously about very inflammatory subjects. She is also very humane in her responses. I also feel strongly about the policies of the current administration. The Patriot Act, the War in Iraq, the lies and corruption all make me very outraged and angry. And congratulations on the new move for losttreasure and being able to spend more time together. Regards, Vendaval Vendaval (and puella), I had a long post in response to her last, but got the dreaded "Timeout". Damn CM for making me sit in the corner. [:)] I don't think I called her "deranged", that is just part of a name of an attitude and way of acting and reacting to the world, fears and anxieties by transferring them onto a specific person. In this case, Bush. I think I also mentioned Clinton Derangement Syndrome as well, for the other side of the political spectrum. The sense of "derangement" is in the sense of this definition: upset: the act of disturbing the mind or body There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with Bush and his policies, even vehemently. It's the appearance of not being able to see any redeeming qualities or actions in the man at all that is disturbing to me. He becomes a caricature. It is dehumanizing and interfers with rational thought and the ability to make good decisions. I do respect her, as well, for her humanity and her intelligence. I don't think I was mean or belittling to her. Actually, although she might not, she could consider it a compliment that I think enough of her to address the issue with her. And thank you (and puella) for the congratulations. FirmKY

ferryman777 -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 2:31:19 PM)
Please, for my own, and others I suppose, edification; can you outline the redeeming qualities of the Bush.

Seatonstomb -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 2:49:31 PM)
The best way to stop the minimal wages of illegals is to scrap the need for work permits and border controls and enforce minimum wage legisation. Creation of the status of being an Illegal worker just encourages corrupt business.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 2:50:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ferryman777 Please, for my own, and others I suppose, edification; can you outline the redeeming qualities of the Bush. Go back and actually read some of what I wrote in my first post in this page of the thread. I take it that you are an acknowledged sufferer of BDS? FirmKY

domiguy -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 2:56:33 PM)
I do think for the most part "illegals" should be removed. But of couse there is a larger underlying problem to the argument...Ok, so I kick out the illegals, and now these jobs that I was paying $7.50/hr now go to some union stooge (who obviously doesn't require much training since the job was being done successfully by "illegals") who is going to demand $20.00 plus benefits....Then doesn't it make economic sense and possibly corporate responsibility to move my factory to the "illegals?" We live in a changing world, which is confirmed daily as I watch/listen as sub susie conducts her business) She works in the tech field and her conversations span the globe with her "fellow employees" all around this internet connected world....The rationale is why pay an engineer in the states $70,000 on up when we can hire Shadeesh in India for 15k or so? Yes the illegals are a problem, but again politicians have a way of distracting us from the real problem at hand...To quote from the movie "An American President." "President Andrew Shepherd: , We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle-aged, middle-class, middle-income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values......" So you kick all of the illegals out...Sure our health care system won't be as taxed....But is that really the problem that Americans are facing? We have lived as isolationists and are now starting to pay the price...It is a global economy and like it or not "Mom and Dad Main Street" are going to be dragged into it whether willing or not. If you are willing to pay $400 for a microwave oven then fine lets build it here with American workers...But we all know the reality of that. So our economy is bound to slide while much of the world's rises...It's a fact. And yep we can point and blame the illegals for our problems, but quite frankly I have personally never noticed this, other than the fact that I am probably paying less for some goods that are created by corporations hiring workers for less or is created by unskilled for labor.

farglebargle -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 3:26:13 PM)
It's not BDS if Bush is Evil. Since Jesus wouldn't approve of Bush's works, would that count as evidence of his Evil?

popeye1250 -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 4:22:24 PM)
Domiguy, look at "NAFTA", it was a COLOSAL MISTAKE. It hasn't "helped" anyone except for Big Corporations! If it's helped Mexico why do we have millions of illegals from that country sneaking into the U.S. now? And where are all the "High-Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" was passed? We've LOST 1 million "high-paying manufacturing jobs" since "NAFTA" was passed. Do you mean to tell me that Clinton was LYING to us? What good is a microwave oven even at $200 if you can't afford it? It kind of bothers me to see people take unbrage at a working person making $40 or $60 per hour but they don't bat an eyelash if a lawyer charges $300. I mean what's the problem there? And as for "free trade" I'm up to my freekin EYEBALLS in cheap imported goods and I really don't need or want anymore of them! I'm going on a "No More Buying" mode for the next few years. I think the American People collectively need to come to the realisation that all this "free-trade" stuff just can't work for us anymore. It wasn't even designed to work for the American People it was designed to maximise "profits." I just can't see how it is somehow "good" for American workers to be making much less money than they used to, perhaps you could explain that to us. Is it because they can buy more cheap plastic goods from overseas that are marked up 1,000%? Oh, of course big corporations LOVE IT, pay someone $5 a day and no benefits in some third world hell hole and sell their products here in the U.S. for a 1,000% mark-up! Oh, and let's dodge some taxes too! I think that if they want to make stuff overseas then they can sell it overseas. Why in the world, should we allow them access to our market? The American People never voted for all this "free-trade" stuff! This needs to end.

domiguy -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 8:08:57 PM)
Popeye, It is a difficult scenario, free trade does not by any means benefit the majority (of Americans)...and we have allowed corporations to view the 'bottom line" as their only moral obligation. So once again by ridding the country of illegals can by no means hurt, but I wonder have we not allowed ourselves to be diverted form the actual problems this country is facing by pointing to "illegals" and saying this is where are problems lie. I live in Chicago, I don't think my life is going to be impacted one iota whether illegals stay or not....I say lets get rid of the people who are here illegaly...But I do believe that this is just the latest "problem run up the flag pole" for people to have something or someone to blame for the perceived decline of America and our eroding middle class.

popeye1250 -> RE: Ironic! Illegals Work in Sweatshop for Our Military & Bush Tours SA to Combat Illegal Immigrati (3/15/2007 11:55:06 PM)
Domiguy, you would think that after 13 years of this DISASTER called Nafta our elected officials would have gotten us out of it by now! What the hell are they waiting for?

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