RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda!

RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 5:09:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy And therin could well be the point, kicking Israel in the teeth is a way of sticking a couple of fingers up at the US & the rest of the west. After all is any western country really going to make war with any real gusto over Israel, especially if it does go nuclear? The US is incapable of warfare that does not revolve around air strikes and tank brigades, The UK is overstretched already, and the rest of europe are too damn busy selling to everyone with cash to hand. As for democratic values being self serving, show me a government anywhere in the world that is not so? Democracy, Totalitariansim, Feudalism, or even outright anarchy, all merely serve the whims of those with power. As churchill once said, "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others" The sticking point in the Arab-Israeli conflict is not whether Israel exists or not but the right of return for the Palestinians and the reimbursement of lands and monies stolen by the Israelis.

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 6:07:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I still don't know how that translates into desiring the extermination of the Jews in the Middle East, as it's been charged. The idea is ludicrous. Well, sleazy explained it in the very post before you posted this, and I explained the idea in the last thread where we discussed this issue. IF it was explained, then a shitty job was done, as the entire idea doesn't follow and still doesn't make any sense. That is of course, why I asked for more information. As a Jew, I'm insulted that anyone would imply that, I would in any way call for the extermination of the Jews in the Mid-east. If you can explain to me how my belief in the bad-faith of the extant government, and my belief in the impossibility of progress as long as that government is in control follows into that extermination, I'd appreciate it. It's your claim. The problem is your claim is nonsense. So, take us slowly thorough this: Need to change government -> Extermination of Jews in Mideast.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 6:32:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I still don't know how that translates into desiring the extermination of the Jews in the Middle East, as it's been charged. The idea is ludicrous. Well, sleazy explained it in the very post before you posted this, and I explained the idea in the last thread where we discussed this issue. IF it was explained, then a shitty job was done, as the entire idea doesn't follow and still doesn't make any sense. That is of course, why I asked for more information. As a Jew, I'm insulted that anyone would imply that, I would in any way call for the extermination of the Jews in the Mid-east. If you can explain to me how my belief in the bad-faith of the extant government, and my belief in the impossibility of progress as long as that government is in control follows into that extermination, I'd appreciate it. It's your claim. The problem is your claim is nonsense. So, take us slowly thorough this: Need to change government -> Extermination of Jews in Mideast. We have discussed this issue twice. Go to the last thread if you want to read my point of view. Ask sleazy to expound on his post if you wish. You bring up the "I'm Jewish" card. Lots of interesting possibilities for discussion with that issue, but I do not intend to go down that path. All I will say is that I never said you "called" for their extermination. You just espouse policies that will ensure it happens. Why you have a hatred for Israel, and why you have such unreasoning hatred of the US isn't something that I can divine from a forum. FirmKY

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 6:44:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY You just espouse policies that will ensure it happens. Why you have a hatred for Israel, and why you have such unreasoning hatred of the US isn't something that I can divine from a forum. FirmKY I get it. You have a crystal ball and can divine the future, that explains why you're so sure of the results. That's how you're certain B flows from A. When you're passing on the revealed word of G-d, you don't have to explain the little details which resolve the non-sequirtor. And unless you qualify your statements about Israel and the US with the word "GOVERNMENT" it's wholly incorrect. Usage of the imprecise term "Israel" without the qualifiers may underlie your entire difficulty with my position. Here's another bit of data. The "NATION of Israel" is totally different from the "State of Israel", and is disjoint from "The People of The State of Israel". So we have 3 actors, and you'll make the blanket statement that I have "unreasoning hatred", without qualification of which actor you're discussing. That's so naive. And again, explains your statements. That lack of sophistication is what doomed the Bush Administration. The world can be a subtle place, and those who cannot deal with those subtleties should likely not participate in it's affairs.

luckydog1 -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 6:47:54 PM)
But the right of Isreal to exist includes the right to have borders and decide who is a citizen. Is there really any difference between destroying Isreal and eliminating its government and taking away all its territory? Why do the rights of the people who had thier lands and wealth stolen by the other arab states not matter at all? Palestine should have become a state in 1948, but the Arabs refused to allow it to happen. Arafat stole billions of dollars from the Palestinians while ruling by force and fear. Palestine being a shit hole has nothing to do with Isreal. If it disapeaered tomorow the other arabs would continue to exploit the Palestinian people.

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 6:54:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 But the right of Isreal to exist includes the right to have borders and decide who is a citizen. Is there really any difference between destroying Isreal and eliminating its government and taking away all its territory? Yes, because there will be a successor government, better able to ensure the Security and Happiness of all it's citizens. quote: Why do the rights of the people who had thier lands and wealth stolen by the other arab states not matter at all? Palestine should have become a state in 1948, but the Arabs refused to allow it to happen. Arafat stole billions of dollars from the Palestinians while ruling by force and fear. Palestine being a shit hole has nothing to do with Isreal. If it disapeaered tomorow the other arabs would continue to exploit the Palestinian people. Likely. Everyone dicks over Everyone Else. There are no hard and fast alliances. To think otherwise is naive, and results in the kind of failure we've seen in Iraq. "The White Mans Burden" has been proven false. The real trick is to get all the people living there to realize they're being used by everyone else NOT living there, and say, "Fuck Off", and unite to ensure domestic tranquility and all that.

luckydog1 -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 7:03:19 PM)
"I get it. You have a crystal ball and can divine the future, that explains why you're so sure of the results. That's how you're certain B flows from A. When you're passing on the revealed word of G-d, you don't have to explain the little details which resolve the non-sequirtor. " "Yes, because there will be a successor government, better able to ensure the Security and Happiness of all it's citizens. " So you farg can say with certainty that the replacement government( the one that wins the Hamas(with Iran /Shiite backing)/Fatah( Sunni /Saudi backing)/Radical Jew civil war), will be better for all the citizens of Isreal? Where did you get your crystal Ball by the way? I want one.

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 7:10:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 "I get it. You have a crystal ball and can divine the future, that explains why you're so sure of the results. That's how you're certain B flows from A. When you're passing on the revealed word of G-d, you don't have to explain the little details which resolve the non-sequirtor. " "Yes, because there will be a successor government, better able to ensure the Security and Happiness of all it's citizens. " So you farg can say with certainty that the replacement government( the one that wins the Hamas(with Iran /Shiite backing)/Fatah( Sunni /Saudi backing)/Radical Jew civil war), will be better for all the citizens of Isreal? I never said that. I never said "With Certainty", and doing so would be absurd. Isn't replacing dysfunctional government what the Declaration of Independence is all about? The hope that you can make better tomorrow something that isn't doing the job today? If "Suck It Up And Deal" was the basis of our civilization, then why do we even HAVE a Declaration of Independence. Are the ideals embodied in the Declaration so alien? I, myself, care mostly for the Nation of Israel. The People living under Diaspora, spread out among the world. The people who will take the heat for the misdeeds of The Government of Israel, as much or moreso than those living there. Some say that UNTIL The Temple is rebuilt, the Government isn't valid in the first place, anyway. Among themselves, Jews can be argumentative, however, some will strongly disagree.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 7:12:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Where did you get your crystal Ball by the way? I want one. It's in his self-righteousness. Such absolute certainity of purpose always gives the "owner" a crystal ball. In times past, it was a religious affliction. In today's world, it's often a political one. FirmKY

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 7:14:58 PM)
You're the one who made unsubstantiated and absurd claims that changing the Government of Israel would without doubt result in the extermination of Jews in the Mideast. Again, if you're not sophisticated enough to keep The People, The Nation, and The State separate, you might not be sophisticated enough to participate in these affairs. That's the evidence we've seen from Bush's meddling so far. UNSOPHISTICATED, SIMPLIFIED WORLDVIEW == FAILURE.

Sinergy -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 7:42:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle The real trick is to get all the people living there to realize they're being used by everyone else NOT living there, and say, "Fuck Off", and unite to ensure domestic tranquility and all that. I love almost everything I read that you write, farglebargle. I do have a rather dismal view of the likelihood that this will happen. I suspect a lot of it is cultural. During the Age of Reason in the West, and around (if memory serves) the 11th century in Japan, as well as most of China's history up to the last century, these countries developed the concept that there might be something more to life than simply screwing over anybody else one could screw over. Education was promoted. Language was promoted. People thought about ethics, philosphy, asked "why" instead of "how much can I make." In the west, we have the development of education, the rise of intellectual thought, etc. Learning and reason and philosophy and ethics has not really been present in the Middle East for most of the last millenia. I mentioned on another thread that I would ask a presidential candidate what he will do to give my great grandchildren a good life. Unfortunately, there is a nihilistic attitude (according to what I have read about the PRACTICE (as opposed to the theology and ideology) of Islam in the middle east. People who cannot conceive of a future, feel incapable of making a positive motion towards building something better, and are unable to think in terms of what will happen when they are gone, tend to be rather quick to "sell themselves on a sea of dead souls," to use a line from one of the Conan books. I would love it if the people in the Middle East told the rest of the world to go suck eggs, but I just dont see it happening until the Decadent Western Satan Culture (and our ideals of altruism and education and building a future) is accepted by those in that part of the world. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 7:56:07 PM)
You're right, Sin. We need to airdrop pre-loaded iPods. Spread that Western Evil.

sleazy -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 8:12:03 PM)
OK Fargle, lets try put this simply 1) Take a nominally democratic state. 2) Remove those in power - ie the regime 3) well what now???? Let the people whose regime you have just removed vote the same or worse back in? I guess a good proportion of the natives would be a little pissed and demand their newly elected regime go kick the ass of those that deposed the original regime. Install a puppet regime of your own? (bearing in mind that the natives will not be overly keen on this idea and could well ignore the new government and run amok, or even a coup of hardliners) Or do you really think the natives will suddenly wake up and say "hey we been a little nasty in the past, lets all try teach the world to sing in pefect harmony"? Bearing in mind that the last is pretty unlikely, you kick someone and they tend to kick back. That is after all the basic problem there, one side kicks, the other returns and as infinitum. The only way to ensure installing a favourable regime is to remove the people who might not like your idea of a freindly regime

Sinergy -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 8:49:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy OK Fargle, lets try put this simply 1) Take a nominally democratic state. 2) Remove those in power - ie the regime 3) well what now???? Let the people whose regime you have just removed vote the same or worse back in? I guess a good proportion of the natives would be a little pissed and demand their newly elected regime go kick the ass of those that deposed the original regime. Install a puppet regime of your own? (bearing in mind that the natives will not be overly keen on this idea and could well ignore the new government and run amok, or even a coup of hardliners) Or do you really think the natives will suddenly wake up and say "hey we been a little nasty in the past, lets all try teach the world to sing in pefect harmony"? Bearing in mind that the last is pretty unlikely, you kick someone and they tend to kick back. That is after all the basic problem there, one side kicks, the other returns and as infinitum. The only way to ensure installing a favourable regime is to remove the people who might not like your idea of a freindly regime I agree completely, sleazy. What needs to change is a fundamental shift in their consciousness. Of course, when Giuliani (60% of Republican's will vote for him in the last poll) gets nominated as the Presidential candidate for the Republicans and 40% of their voting members (the Religious right) leave the party, I imagine I will say the same thing to them. The only thing a person can really change is their mind. Sinergy

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/4/2007 9:16:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy OK Fargle, lets try put this simply 1) Take a nominally democratic state. Since The current Government of Israel doesn't represent the views of Arab-Israeli's your claim of it being "Nominally Democratic" is both incorrect and naive, the product of an overly simplified, unsophisticated view of a complex, sophisticated situation. Given your initial premise is incorrect, no reasonable conclusions can be inferred, however, I will follow through and finish my reply to this. quote: 2) Remove those in power - ie the regime quote: 3) well what now???? Didn't you take Civics Class? Does this sound familiar? "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." quote: Let the people whose regime you have just removed vote the same or worse back in? I guess a good proportion of the natives would be a little pissed and demand their newly elected regime go kick the ass of those that deposed the original regime. Install a puppet regime of your own? (bearing in mind that the natives will not be overly keen on this idea and could well ignore the new government and run amok, or even a coup of hardliners) Or do you really think the natives will suddenly wake up and say "hey we been a little nasty in the past, lets all try teach the world to sing in pefect harmony"? Since we are not there, and they are not our slaves, it is their challenge to overcome. However, since you call them and think of them as "The Natives", it's clear that is something, bigotry, racism or whatever, which makes it impossible for you to credit them with the same supposedly self-evident truths so clearly enumerated in the Declaration of Independence. That ALL men are created equal. Let me restate the central point. They ain't your fucking slaves, what you want is irrelevant. The "White Mans Burden" was proven false long ago. Maybe it's time to grow up and get out of the 19th Century. Stop fucking around with the Internal Affairs of Sovereign Nations, and The People will work it out for themselves. And if they don't, it's STILL not your fucking problem. That's why Iraq failed. Freedom and Liberty were never ours to give.

sleazy -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/5/2007 5:12:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Since The current Government of Israel doesn't represent the views of Arab-Israeli's your claim of it being "Nominally Democratic" is both incorrect and naive, the product of an overly simplified, unsophisticated view of a complex, sophisticated situation. Given your initial premise is incorrect, no reasonable conclusions can be inferred, however, I will follow through and finish my reply to this. Fer Petes sake!!!!!!!! Did the government just happen, or did somebody vote for it? If the latter then it is nominally democratic! If you refuse to accept even that simple point then I see no point trying to further this discussion. As an aside, knowing where Sinergy and I stand far far apart on many issues I am glad to have his support on my reading of the situation[:)] EDITED TO ADD I resent your implication of racism because I choose to use the word native to describe somebody who lives in and is a citizen of a state, and quite possibly born there too. That makes me a native brit and proud of it, it makes my last partner a native american (not american indian) and proud of it. I hate to say it but when two nations have weapons measured in kilotons and there is a chance they may start throwing them around I think it is something I should pay attention to and not ignore. Just remember in this day and age Orlando, Boston, Seattle are as easy targets as Jeruslam, Tehran and Beruit.

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/5/2007 5:47:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Since The current Government of Israel doesn't represent the views of Arab-Israeli's your claim of it being "Nominally Democratic" is both incorrect and naive, the product of an overly simplified, unsophisticated view of a complex, sophisticated situation. Given your initial premise is incorrect, no reasonable conclusions can be inferred, however, I will follow through and finish my reply to this. Fer Petes sake!!!!!!!! Did the government just happen, or did somebody vote for it? If the latter then it is nominally democratic! quote: So Venezuela and Cuba are also "Nominally Democratic". SADDAM HUSSEIN was elected by a "Nominally Democratic" election. If the elections which put Chavez, Castro, and Hussein into power weren't "Democratic Enough", then neither is Israels. The British have a long and storied tradition of racism and bigotry. I'll chalk up your casual use of "Native" to the remaining influence of those centuries of racism, rather than an unintentional insult. However consider carefully what that tradition still influences. I remind you, "The White Mans Burden" has been long disproved, and is dehumanizing. quote: I hate to say it but when two nations have weapons measured in kilotons and there is a chance they may start throwing them around I think it is something I should pay attention to and not ignore. Just remember in this day and age Orlando, Boston, Seattle are as easy targets as Jeruslam, Tehran and Beruit. Afraid? Freedom and Liberty have a price. The price is being BRAVE ENOUGH to accept the Freedom and Liberty of other people, AND the downsides of the same. Those who are not brave enough to accept that do not DESERVE Freedom and Liberty. They get exactly the "Nanny Government" they deserve. When you're afraid, you make bad decisions. Look at the way Blair followed Bush. How about that guy your cops assassinated in the subway because he was wearing a thick coat? NO decision predicated by fear is trustworthy. But the people you killed in Iraq know that, don't they?

sleazy -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/5/2007 9:51:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Since The current Government of Israel doesn't represent the views of Arab-Israeli's your claim of it being "Nominally Democratic" is both incorrect and naive, the product of an overly simplified, unsophisticated view of a complex, sophisticated situation. Given your initial premise is incorrect, no reasonable conclusions can be inferred, however, I will follow through and finish my reply to this. Fer Petes sake!!!!!!!! Did the government just happen, or did somebody vote for it? If the latter then it is nominally democratic! quote: So Venezuela and Cuba are also "Nominally Democratic". SADDAM HUSSEIN was elected by a "Nominally Democratic" election. If the elections which put Chavez, Castro, and Hussein into power weren't "Democratic Enough", then neither is Israels. Well aint that a crying shame, I have it in mind that the Ba'th party came to power in a coup, not an election, so that rules out hussein from you little list Castro was a terrorist that went on to found a one party state, as a result of invasion and has never held an election and upon ilness delegated his executive powers to his self-appointed sucessor Thats 2 out of 3 debunked, I cant be bothered to research the third. quote: quote: The British have a long and storied tradition of racism and bigotry. I'll chalk up your casual use of "Native" to the remaining influence of those centuries of racism, rather than an unintentional insult. Why not chalk up my use of the word native to my own damn explanation, or is just easier for you to attack me personally than discuss the issues at hand with a little logic and research quote: quote: However consider carefully what that tradition still influences. I remind you, "The White Mans Burden" has been long disproved, and is dehumanizing. You do not know me at, you have no idea what traditions influence me, or which traditions I find morally repungant and do my best to break down. Again forget me, deal with the issue. How about Sinergy, he agreed with what I wrote does this all apply to him too, and I think it is clear from other debates he and I are from opposite sides of the coin normally. I seem to recall that Sinergy actually has qualifications in the masses of humanity, so perhaps it could be he is more at liberty to agree with me than I am to make my statements. quote: quote: quote: I hate to say it but when two nations have weapons measured in kilotons and there is a chance they may start throwing them around I think it is something I should pay attention to and not ignore. Just remember in this day and age Orlando, Boston, Seattle are as easy targets as Jeruslam, Tehran and Beruit. Afraid? Freedom and Liberty have a price. The price is being BRAVE ENOUGH to accept the Freedom and Liberty of other people, AND the downsides of the same. Those who are not brave enough to accept that do not DESERVE Freedom and Liberty. They get exactly the "Nanny Government" they deserve. When you're afraid, you make bad decisions. Look at the way Blair followed Bush. How about that guy your cops assassinated in the subway because he was wearing a thick coat? NO decision predicated by fear is trustworthy. Ah the demnzies case, now you are talking about my trade, that was not about fear, that was about operational and tactical failures, no fear, just a simple good old fashioned fuck up. quote: quote: But the people you killed in Iraq know that, don't they? The people I killed in Iraq were a direct threat to either my colleagues or my charges (again you know nothing of my involvement there so I suggest you either find out what I do there or keep quiet about things you know nothing about). It is a cost of my trade, but hell you run towards a well armed well trained soldier whilst pointing an AK47 at them and then refuse to stop and put the gun down, well you either mean great harm or are just plain stupid, and evolution itslef knows that stupidty is generally a capital crime enforced by nature.

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/5/2007 10:08:00 AM)
quote: Well aint that a crying shame, I have it in mind that the Ba'th party came to power in a coup, not an election, so that rules out hussein from you little list Yeah, AND? The People of Iraq permitted the Coup to happen. It's the internal affairs of a Sovereign Nation, so unless and until the Iraqi People overthrew the Baath Party, it's legit. NO GOVERNMENT has a divine right to rule, and they ALL rule only with the tacit or overt permission of The People. THAT is why we sent you guys a copy of the Declaration of Independence. Do you need another copy? It's their nation, they aren't your slaves, and although you don't like the idea, there WAS an election, which Hussein won and it's validity is EXACTLY as auditable as Bush's election in the US, or the election of the puppet government currently permitting the Civil War to continue unabated. Once you start poking holes in the VALIDITY of the elections, all sorts of consequences emerge. I'm sure you really don't want to go there.

farglebargle -> RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! (3/5/2007 10:12:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Since The current Government of Israel doesn't represent the views of Arab-Israeli's your claim of it being "Nominally Democratic" is both incorrect and naive, the product of an overly simplified, unsophisticated view of a complex, sophisticated situation. Given your initial premise is incorrect, no reasonable conclusions can be inferred, however, I will follow through and finish my reply to this. Fer Petes sake!!!!!!!! Did the government just happen, or did somebody vote for it? If the latter then it is nominally democratic! quote: So Venezuela and Cuba are also "Nominally Democratic". SADDAM HUSSEIN was elected by a "Nominally Democratic" election. If the elections which put Chavez, Castro, and Hussein into power weren't "Democratic Enough", then neither is Israels. Well aint that a crying shame, I have it in mind that the Ba'th party came to power in a coup, not an election, so that rules out hussein from you little list Castro was a terrorist that went on to found a one party state, as a result of invasion and has never held an election and upon ilness delegated his executive powers to his self-appointed sucessor Thats 2 out of 3 debunked, I cant be bothered to research the third. quote: quote: The British have a long and storied tradition of racism and bigotry. I'll chalk up your casual use of "Native" to the remaining influence of those centuries of racism, rather than an unintentional insult. Why not chalk up my use of the word native to my own damn explanation, or is just easier for you to attack me personally than discuss the issues at hand with a little logic and research quote: quote: However consider carefully what that tradition still influences. I remind you, "The White Mans Burden" has been long disproved, and is dehumanizing. You do not know me at, you have no idea what traditions influence me, or which traditions I find morally repungant and do my best to break down. Again forget me, deal with the issue. How about Sinergy, he agreed with what I wrote does this all apply to him too, and I think it is clear from other debates he and I are from opposite sides of the coin normally. I seem to recall that Sinergy actually has qualifications in the masses of humanity, so perhaps it could be he is more at liberty to agree with me than I am to make my statements. quote: quote: quote: I hate to say it but when two nations have weapons measured in kilotons and there is a chance they may start throwing them around I think it is something I should pay attention to and not ignore. Just remember in this day and age Orlando, Boston, Seattle are as easy targets as Jeruslam, Tehran and Beruit. Afraid? Freedom and Liberty have a price. The price is being BRAVE ENOUGH to accept the Freedom and Liberty of other people, AND the downsides of the same. Those who are not brave enough to accept that do not DESERVE Freedom and Liberty. They get exactly the "Nanny Government" they deserve. When you're afraid, you make bad decisions. Look at the way Blair followed Bush. How about that guy your cops assassinated in the subway because he was wearing a thick coat? NO decision predicated by fear is trustworthy. Ah the demnzies case, now you are talking about my trade, that was not about fear, that was about operational and tactical failures, no fear, just a simple good old fashioned fuck up. Is that your excuse for murdering someone? It was a fuckup? The shooters DID NOT PANIC? Is that your claim? Hi-Larious. quote: quote: But the people you killed in Iraq know that, don't they? The people I killed in Iraq Plural "YOU". Any killing you (Singular ) did is between YOU and St. Peter ( Or Satan, for those like the US troops who murdered a family to rape their daughter. ) There are a lot of dead Iraqis who didn't have guns when they were shot down.

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