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Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 6:33:46 AM

SimplyMichael

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Since BDSM didn't invent relationships and Gor rejects (in general) BDSM, is the relational aspect of WIIWD vanilla? Not in a negative sense are our relationships truly different?

Eskimos have 20 words for snow but their snow isn't any different than anyone elses, they just have descriptors for it. We certainly have more words and discuss more openly our relationships but I don't think they are at their core any different. Power exchanges exist in all relationships, some more, some a lot more, and some very little.

Vanilla's have words for them too that would describe "our" sorts of relationships. Hen Pecked, Pussy Whipped, Wearing the Pants, Domineering, Controlling, and the list goes on.

Where we clearly differ is in negotiating (or at least exploring and understanding consciously) those roles up front rather than just falling into them and I think THAT is what has the potential to make us more healthy and perhaps even though we end up doing the same thing, that is what really sets us apart, not the actual resulting relationship.

What really got me thinking about this was a poor guy at work. His wife is dying of Parkinson's and he is really lost and confused. I was listening to him one day as he opened up about it, he is used to her making the decisions in the relationship, and now that she is helpless that role is thrust on him and he is lost. I ended up giving him the same advice I would to a long term slave who's master is dying.

So, considering that women used to be property in some cultures, we have vows of "love, honor, and, obey", do people agree and if not, how does WIIWD differ from the roles adopted unconsciously in a vanilla relationship? I am only talking about the roles, not the actions in a relationship.

Post #: 1

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:00:06 AM

onestandingstill

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I think in any relationship we have, we tend to either be Dominant or submissive vanilla or kink.
The book Surrendered Wife is a vanilla book, but it's a story of a hugely submissive woman and how she is devoted to her husband deeper than most slaves I've seen are to their Masters.
I agree a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
I also agree these dang words we trap people with are just descriptive ways to express our thought and are really irrelevant in the end.
Each and every person's concept of any word varies from each other, we just have to reach others with what we have available any way.
suzanne

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 2

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:06:22 AM

losttreasure

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

...how does WIIWD differ from the roles adopted unconsciously in a vanilla relationship? I am only talking about the roles, not the actions in a relationship.

I agree... they don't differ. That's why I said in my "Good Dom" thread that relationships of whatever kind you like (meaning vanilla, M/s, D/s, DD, etc.); it's still two people relating to one another. In WIIWD, a primary difference lies in the conscious acknowledgement of and agreement about those roles, expectations and subsequent actions.

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Just because it isn't "all about me", doesn't make it "all about you".

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

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RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:13:53 AM

dawntreader

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I am going to stick my neck out and ask:

what does WIIWD stand for?

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It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
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There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 4

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:21:59 AM

Lorelei115

Posts: 1933
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From: Sin City
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What it is that we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIITWD

< Message edited by Lorelei115 -- 2/14/2007 7:22:46 AM >

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But by the realization
Of who we are.

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RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:26:03 AM

NightWindWhisper

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Uh I am not a Gor person, though I've read many of Norman's books and there is plenty of bdsm in gor. There are the wicked "pleasure cages" where a hapless errant slave is locked into, usually in a public place where anyone can pretty much do anything with her.... Sort of a hybrid glory hole with whipping post and stocks.... If that's not bdsm what is?

(in reply to Lorelei115)

Post #: 6

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:36:37 AM

cloudboy

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BDSM, GOR, MARRIAGE, or any societal roles are overlays and facilitators of relationships -- things that enhance, guide, and deepen a relationship.

But, antecedent to all that, is the person-to-person thing. This is the ultimate differentiator and this where actual connections are made or lost.

Role-on-role, impersonal relationships: DOM-SUB, M-F, Husband-Wife, mirror an employer-employee relationship.

IMO, too many people overstimate the importance of role and devalue the importance of the person. Why? Because alot of folks, as you have pointed out, are lost outside of roles, rules, and tradition.

A more advanced person, however, thinks on his own --- and borrows what he needs from society and tradition to build his own satisfying life. He also does not let roles dictate his relations to others, for he chooses to relate to others on his own terms.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 7

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:37:42 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
So, considering that women used to be property in some cultures, we have vows of "love, honor, and, obey", do people agree and if not, how does WIIWD differ from the roles adopted unconsciously in a vanilla relationship? I am only talking about the roles, not the actions in a relationship.

We differ in our expectations of authority.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 8

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:40:14 AM

MaryT

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Joined: 12/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Where we clearly differ is in negotiating (or at least exploring and understanding consciously) those roles up front rather than just falling into them and I think THAT is what has the potential to make us more healthy and perhaps even though we end up doing the same thing, that is what really sets us apart, not the actual resulting relationship.

I agree. I think one of the benefits of exploring power exchange is realizing how much of it is choice, how much of it is ego driven, how much is libido driven, etc. From what I can tell, many people in BDSM have power issues. Of course, the same could be said of the vanilla world, but it's cool to see those issues explored in ways that do not wind up in abusive relationships or with 60,000 people dead (last count in Iraq).

quote:

What really got me thinking about this was a poor guy at work. His wife is dying of Parkinson's and he is really lost and confused. I was listening to him one day as he opened up about it, he is used to her making the decisions in the relationship, and now that she is helpless that role is thrust on him and he is lost. I ended up giving him the same advice I would to a long term slave who's master is dying.

The widowers I've known were left completely lost. I don't think it had to do with power dynamics within the relationships so much as those men were not friends with feelings and then were overwhelmed with broad-siding effects of grief.

I think that what makes a healthy relationship in the vanilla world is basically the same stuff that makes up any healthy adult relationship.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 9

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:46:39 AM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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Greetings..~smiles~

I think it's not viewed as bdsm due to the fact that the wench in the cage is not wanting that sort of attention ..whipping, prodding etc. etc. ..where as with bdsm..it is generally something that is done due to a mutual turn on..often sexual arousal/pleasure etc. etc.

Aside from that..I have read posts from quite a few Goreans on CM that do infact ingage in bdsm practices to some degree. More often it was disquised as discipline, just a Master whim, training, etc. etc.

On the Gor slave aspect it was guised as begging for a whipping or spanking or rough handling "to remind her/him of their place".

So in the end..am not sure if the "reasoning you give" to engage in the same activitys makes a difference or not. To me..it does not.

As far as M/s differing from vanilla..I think for the most part there is just a greater intensity between the M/s. The "what about me", "whats in it for me", "what will I get in return" mentalitys aren't present in a stingy one sided way. It is such a fine line that it is hard to express it with just wording but I do know that I never felt cared for, appreciated, desired, or even loved in a equal marriage. I felt like just another body under the same roof no matter how many good times or laughs were present. It is not that way with Master. I feel and know without even dwelling on any of it.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to NightWindWhisper)

Post #: 10

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:50:23 AM

SimplyMichael

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LA,

Come on, you got to add more than that, you were one who I was hoping to draw into this discussion!

An expectation of authority? That could be taken any number of ways. Do you mean that we "get" that one or the other will be in charge at the same time? A vanilla relationship where both partners are equal isn't much different than a pair of dominants.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 11

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:52:01 AM

VeryMercurial

Posts: 620
Joined: 6/5/2006
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Great question. I think many often forget that relationships are just that relationships.
I don't care what titles you use, if you are intimately involved with someone you are involved in a real
life relationship, and all it entails.
There is a lot more to real life than kinky parlor games, and cute names.
That is why IMHO many BDSM relationships do not last or turn into long term relationships.
It takes a lot more than common kinks to go the long haul in life.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 12

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:54:00 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
LA,

Come on, you got to add more than that, you were one who I was hoping to draw into this discussion!

An expectation of authority? That could be taken any number of ways. Do you mean that we "get" that one or the other will be in charge at the same time? A vanilla relationship where both partners are equal isn't much different than a pair of dominants.

LOL what more do you want?

IMO the difference between Ds/Ms relationships and other types of relationships is that we are BASED ON a transfer of a authority, an expectation that one will hold authority over the other, and that this expectation/foundation is what will fulfill us.

This is why I consider my relationship to my partner to be essentially vanilla. We both switch, we both will wear a collar, I will call him master and I will call him slave...but there's never any EXPECTATION of authority transfer, and our relationship is based on mutual affection and fulfillment, NOT authority transfer.

And IMO that's really the ONLY difference. Nothing to do with the action, how it looks, who calls who want or when or who makes dinner or how deep it feels- solely the expectation of authority.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 13

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 7:54:33 AM

SimplyMichael

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Stars,

You speak of the intensity of your M/s relationship compared to your "equal marriage". Not all marriages have equal partners, many have a rather clear power dynamic.

We certainly have ways of adding to that dynamic, sitting at your master's feet enhances that power dynamic but is the dynamic itself truly unique to WIIWD? I just don't see that it is.

(in reply to starshineowned)

Post #: 14

RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 8:19:23 AM

toservez

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From: All over now in Minnesota
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Core values/habits and what makes up a good and healthy relationship are prevalent and the same in all types of relationships. Compatibility, agreement on expectations and roles, decent level of communication and the intangible chemistry off the top of my head are some of these that make up a healthy relationship.

Out of these types of things the only thing I see that separates us in anyway is the acknowledgement of the framework on how certain, most or all decisions are made and therefore maybe less of a chance for stress, miscommunication and bickering that gets things clouded and confused within the relationship.

Personally I also believe that there is a greater percentage of acceptance and understanding of the roles that one have within the relationship in our life compared to vanilla but I do not think that it is a great difference. I do think we do a better job of spelling out roles and expectations at the start but it is not unique. I am woefully ignorant on this but do not most couples getting married in churches usually have to have marriage classes that go over many of these things. The difference might be the seriousness of the understanding and commitment at the time of these discussions. But who knows.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

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RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 8:21:26 AM

SirDominic

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Indeed, most marriages have a power dynamic; few are truly between equal partners. The difference in vanilla is that there is no expectation that one will be the dominant personality, one the submissive; it just happens depending on the partners involved. The stronger of the two will naturally take the leading role. I believe this lack of understanding in a vanilla relationship is one of primary reasons so many of them fail.

Fetish partnerships, no matter the flavor, tend to have a more likely chance that there will be negotiation of roles, and expectations of roles, which is why they can often work better. Vanilla couples could learn a lot about strengthening their relationship by using some of the basic tools we use in this lifestyle. It would be interesting trying to sell that to the so called moral majority!

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

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RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 8:26:20 AM

MaryT

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Joined: 12/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

The "what about me", "whats in it for me", "what will I get in return" mentalitys aren't present in a stingy one sided way. It is such a fine line that it is hard to express it with just wording but I do know that I never felt cared for, appreciated, desired, or even loved in a equal marriage.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a truly (squick!) equal marriage. Unless both people want exactly the same thing all the time, a power struggle of some sort ensues and, hopefully, negotiations. How the work of the household is split, how the money is spent, etc., seem to me to be sources of constant conflict in what people would call "equal marriages."

(in reply to starshineowned)

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RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 8:29:11 AM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

Indeed, most marriages have a power dynamic; few are truly between equal partners. The difference in vanilla is that there is no expectation that one will be the dominant personality, one the submissive; it just happens depending on the partners involved. The stronger of the two will naturally take the leading role. I believe this lack of understanding in a vanilla relationship is one of primary reasons so many of them fail.

Fetish partnerships, no matter the flavor, tend to have a more likely chance that there will be negotiation of roles, and expectations of roles, which is why they can often work better. Vanilla couples could learn a lot about strengthening their relationship by using some of the basic tools we use in this lifestyle. It would be interesting trying to sell that to the so called moral majority!

Namaste, Sir Dominic

The only problem with that, is that agreeing on roles and expectations doesn't mean that they are realistic or any more workable. Are there really a greater percentage of successful relationships within WIIWD?

And interesting thought that toservez brings up... I wonder how well BDSM couples would do if there were a requirement that they attend some kind of counseling prior to committing to "collaring"?

< Message edited by losttreasure -- 2/14/2007 8:31:08 AM >

_____________________________

Just because it isn't "all about me", doesn't make it "all about you".

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RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 8:33:19 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Our relationships differ from historic vanilla ones in that women can have male subs, gay subs can have doms, any combination thereof. It is not to much the relational aspects that differ, it is who engages in what roles. I could very easily see little difference when it comes to male/female relationships, but I do see it when it comes to other sexual orientation.

Since we have a more egaltarian relationship structure in our society today, the personal difference to me is power structure. And there are not the power struggles inherent in other relationships I have had

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/14/2007 8:34:09 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

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RE: Is BDSM, D/s, and Gor Vanilla? - 2/14/2007 9:56:01 AM

Mercnbeth

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Michael,
I'm surprised that you are opening a thread which ultimately focuses on labels and comparative definitions. It is not only a thankless task but a fruitless one. I compare it to any of the endless diatribes concerning the distinction or definition of slave v. sub. Although guilty myself at contributing to that rhetoric, I do so only to express my definitions and distinctions and how they apply to my relationship. I'll point out how someone else's situation is outside my definition but never represent that it is outside, or represents any "THE" definition. The reason is it can't ever be the case.

Have you ever been on a 'Bullet Train'? The thing goes over 200 MPH. Yet when you are in it, you feel you are standing still. Using 'lifestyle' terms. Looking at the train while driving a "limited" speed, it's going "no-limits" fast; while on the train you may think you are "vanilla" standing still. Fly over it in a F-14 going "Gor" fast, it's barely moving.

The battles come when the Gor fast people insult the bullet train people who can't believe the car people can waste so much time. It is a big "so what" situation. In fact all are going along their journey at their own pace. Defensiveness to "one true way", speaks of insecurity. Debating the relative merits is useful to confirm or question, and it generates confidence in the face of challenges. People in a secure and confident in their relationship make it look easy. Perhaps this creates a problem. A car person, or someone just slowing walking in their journey, jumping into the cockpit of an F-14 usually ends up crashing and burning.

From our perspective, our relationship is 'vanilla'. We are standing still. We sleep, wake, eat, live, and interact with each other and those around us in a manner that is comfortable and natural. I call beth slave not because she has obtained anyone else's definition but because she is a slave under my definition. Trying to fit into a "role" defined by others would be frustrating and doom you never knowing or being confident with yourself.

It comes down to this. If words define you as long as their is more than one dictionary definition you will always be subject to failure because you can not meet them all. The relationship sets the only important definition. I'm happy and content, and feel 'vanilla' within ours. It matters not how someone outside it perceives it. If the labeling terms BDSM, D/s, Gor, slave, Master, sub and all the rest didn't exist nothing in our lives would change.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 20

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