Old Vid. Americans kill Brit

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meatcleaver -> Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 2:59:59 AM)
Old vid from 2003 of American pilot firing on Brits. Follow the link in the article to get the video. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1337982.ece Notice, the pilots are clueless as to what British armour looks like.

sleazy -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 6:18:34 AM)
And of course only Americans ever make mistakes in the heat of battle. I suspect not. Travel at high speed across the desert, you spot something, you have 2 maybe 3 seconds to identify it and decide if it is a threat or not all whilst trying not to kill yourself whilst flying into the ground. Do that daily for a few years without once ever making a mistake and I might regard your "pilots are clueless" with a little validity.

OffTheBeatenTrak -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 7:03:22 AM)
I'm not going to throw judgement by finger pointing because that would be unfair, Based only on the video clip, target recognition and communication seem to be the faults here. The pilots asked several times if there was any friendlies in the area when they failed to recognise the targets. I can't help thinking if there's any dubt as to who your firing on then surely the target should be given the benifit of that dubt given the concequences. I suppose in war the question is can you afford to give that benifit of dubt. While i do sypithise with the family, and agree it shouldn't happen. I do apprieceate that due to the complexity of the communication network such errors with dire effects will occur. The question in this case would be, how avoidable was it.. When i think about it i find it's not as easy to answer as i thought it might be.. Unfortunaly i'm probably never going have the answer for sure as the video clip only show one part of a much bigger picture. Any thourghts

meatcleaver -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 7:05:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy And of course only Americans ever make mistakes in the heat of battle. I suspect not. Travel at high speed across the desert, you spot something, you have 2 maybe 3 seconds to identify it and decide if it is a threat or not all whilst trying not to kill yourself whilst flying into the ground. Do that daily for a few years without once ever making a mistake and I might regard your "pilots are clueless" with a little validity. Wasn't really the heat of battle was it and there was six mistakes leading up to the assault. The pilots were told by their command that no allies were in the area. However, their command knew British troops were in the area and the planes shouldn't have been operating. The pilots were unable to identify an allie's armour which is pretty basic stuff and they mistook light scorpion tanks for Russian Zil flatbacks (about twice as long as light scorpion tanks). The scorpion tanks had orange panels on which indicated friendly troops. The pilots mention orange panels in their exchange (it still didn't register though or weren't they told?). The vehicles also sported large British flags. Again, it wasn't the heat of battle, the planes were scouting for enemy in an area they shouldn't have been operating in.

ToGiveDivine -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 7:12:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy And of course only Americans ever make mistakes in the heat of battle. I suspect not. Travel at high speed across the desert, you spot something, you have 2 maybe 3 seconds to identify it and decide if it is a threat or not all whilst trying not to kill yourself whilst flying into the ground. Do that daily for a few years without once ever making a mistake and I might regard your "pilots are clueless" with a little validity. Wasn't really the heat of battle was it and there was six mistakes leading up to the assault. The pilots were told by their command that no allies were in the area. However, their command knew British troops were in the area and the planes shouldn't have been operating. The pilots were unable to identify an allie's armour which is pretty basic stuff and they mistook light scorpion tanks for Russian Zil flatbacks (about twice as long as light scorpion tanks). The scorpion tanks had orange panels on which indicated friendly troops. The pilots mention orange panels in their exchange (it still didn't register though or weren't they told?). The vehicles also sported large British flags. Again, it wasn't the heat of battle, the planes were scouting for enemy in an area they shouldn't have been operating in. I've never met anyone that HATES everything and everyone. I'm glad you are so damn perfect - hell, you must be Jesus Christ himself you are so perfect. Actually, you are an ass and every post you make proves that point.

meatcleaver -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 7:14:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine I've never met anyone that HATES everything and everyone. I'm glad you are so damn perfect - hell, you must be Jesus Christ himself you are so perfect. Actually, you are an ass and every post you make proves that point. LOL Just cause the pilots weren't trained or briefed properly and the US government did its best to bury the tape, I'm an ass. It appears one of your fellow countrymen must have thought people had the right to know about a fuck up.

ToGiveDivine -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 7:53:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine I've never met anyone that HATES everything and everyone. I'm glad you are so damn perfect - hell, you must be Jesus Christ himself you are so perfect. Actually, you are an ass and every post you make proves that point. LOL Just cause the pilots weren't trained or briefed properly and the US government did its best to bury the tape, I'm an ass. It appears one of your fellow countrymen must have thought people had the right to know about a fuck up. This incident was all over the news here in the States and the pilots were brought up on charges as well. If I remember correctly, part of this video was shown on our news over 3 years ago. Yes, our people screwed up - you just seem to take glee in other people's misery.

sleazy -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 8:19:34 AM)
Of course the world should be perfect, accidents should never happen, events should never chain together with results that we dont like. But hey, 5h1t happens, get over it. Confused how burying the tape and handing it over to a foriegn government as part of an investigation actually reconcile each other. March 24 '03: Two British soldiers are killed when their tank is mistakenly targeted by another British tank in southern Iraq. And if anyone should know what a brit tank looks like, I would guess its the brits.

mnottertail -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 8:24:00 AM)
More people are killed by friendly fire and ancillary operations, then actually die in situ. Clauswitz

meatcleaver -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 8:32:29 AM)
Actually one can argue about whether the incident should have happened or not but one thing that has come out over this incident is the US government's total refusal to cooperate with British courts. Yep, it claims the video is classified but it refused to cooperate even with a court in camera which just shows what cxontempt the US government has for its allies.

sleazy -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 9:19:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Actually one can argue about whether the incident should have happened or not but one thing that has come out over this incident is the US government's total refusal to cooperate with British courts. Minor technical point, the US stopped being subject to UK law an awful long time ago. quote: Yep, it claims the video is classified but it refused to cooperate even with a court in camera which just shows what cxontempt the US government has for its allies. “A copy of the video was used as evidence by the Board of Inquiry’s investigation into the incident" from your source, and of course as the dead were under the employ of HM Queen & Sons armed forces at the time the findings of an MOD board of inquiry are admissible in coroners court, just as the results of a police murder investigation are admissible. Therefore the US did cooperate, but without allowing military doctrine to be brought up in open court. Coroners courts very rarely allow any testimony in camera, and then only from individual people, not larger entities. Let us not also forget that the US servicemen were involved in their own legal proceedings and to have evidence disected in public goes against the grain of both US and UK law. How many times have you heard a police officer etc say those immortal words "I cannot discuss an ongoing enquiry as it may prejudice future legal proceedings"

meatcleaver -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 10:19:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Minor technical point, the US stopped being subject to UK law an awful long time ago. Cooperation isn't about force its about respect for one's so called allies. That fact that the US government shows contempt for its allies makes you wonder why we are allies in the first place. Have you got your US passport yet? quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy “A copy of the video was used as evidence by the Board of Inquiry’s investigation into the incident" from your source, and of course as the dead were under the employ of HM Queen & Sons armed forces at the time the findings of an MOD board of inquiry are admissible in coroners court, just as the results of a police murder investigation are admissible. Therefore the US did cooperate, but without allowing military doctrine to be brought up in open court. Coroners courts very rarely allow any testimony in camera, and then only from individual people, not larger entities. Let us not also forget that the US servicemen were involved in their own legal proceedings and to have evidence disected in public goes against the grain of both US and UK law. How many times have you heard a police officer etc say those immortal words "I cannot discuss an ongoing enquiry as it may prejudice future legal proceedings" The video was classified and could not be obtained by the coroner, it was only with someone leaking it into the public domain was the coroner able to reach a verdict.

LadyEllen -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 11:04:07 AM)
Its just been on the news here. Apparently, the US pilots were air national guardsmen for whom this was their first combat mission. I find it a bit strange to let two such inexperienced guys out with such aircraft, without adequate supervision from a more experienced pilot with them, and I cant help but think someone higher up in the command structure should be asked questions about that. That said, and without detracting from the unnecessary grief of LC Hull and his family, its a war and war is shit from start to finish; of course it shouldnt have happened, but you cant have a war and expect shit like this not to happen. E

sleazy -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 11:06:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Minor technical point, the US stopped being subject to UK law an awful long time ago. Cooperation isn't about force its about respect for one's so called allies. That fact that the US government shows contempt for its allies makes you wonder why we are allies in the first place. So the US should respect our laws and ignore due process for their own laws? Not a way to earn any respect from anyone. EDIT, How is is respectful for us to ignore an allies request not to release classified data or prejudice a potential criminal investigation, you cant have respect without giving some quote: Have you got your US passport yet? Irrelevant, as it is I have several passports from several nations, which nations are not relevant to this or any other discussion in a public forum. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy “A copy of the video was used as evidence by the Board of Inquiry’s investigation into the incident" from your source, and of course as the dead were under the employ of HM Queen & Sons armed forces at the time the findings of an MOD board of inquiry are admissible in coroners court, just as the results of a police murder investigation are admissible. Therefore the US did cooperate, but without allowing military doctrine to be brought up in open court. Coroners courts very rarely allow any testimony in camera, and then only from individual people, not larger entities. Let us not also forget that the US servicemen were involved in their own legal proceedings and to have evidence disected in public goes against the grain of both US and UK law. How many times have you heard a police officer etc say those immortal words "I cannot discuss an ongoing enquiry as it may prejudice future legal proceedings" The video was classified and could not be obtained by the coroner, it was only with someone leaking it into the public domain was the coroner able to reach a verdict. In which case the evidence was unlawfully obtained (Official Secrets Act) and thus inadmissible in a court. Please note the coroner has not reached a verdict according the source you cite, he has adjourned "until the government release". Apart from the issue of illegally obtained evidence, there is no valid chain of custody for leaked information which of course renders its value as evidence practically zero, unless of course the leaker is prepared to testify to the coroner to substantiate the authenticity. A little unlikely I suspect

meatcleaver -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 11:25:35 AM)
A coroner's court is not a criminal court and is not subject to the same protacols. Its job is to reach a verdict on someone's death and not whether someone is guilty of of a crime, that is for a criminal court. Yep. Now the video is in the public domain it is being considered for release. The thing that really irritates me is that the US would not allow such a cavalier approach to the sensitivities of its citizens and neither would European countries allow its citizens to be treated so badly without some cooling of relations with the US. However lapdog Britain shows complete disregard for its citizens sensitivities, even ones in uniform and won't let anything come between the British government licking American arse.

sleazy -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/6/2007 11:42:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver A coroner's court is not a criminal court and is not subject to the same protacols. Its job is to reach a verdict on someone's death and not whether someone is guilty of of a crime, that is for a criminal court. Subject to the same legal limitiations on evidence as the coroners court can lead to criminal charges. Otherwise how could verdicts such as unlawful killing be reached and be reasonable? And a coroner can actually have a bearing on further legal processes, after all unlawful killing and unlawful killing by person or persons unkown are two different verdicts. Evidence from coroners court is also admissible in further process therfore must reach the same standards of validity.

meatcleaver -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/7/2007 2:33:30 AM)
I think you will find that the coroner threatened to use the leaked film and it was his robust assertion to do such a thing as to why the American government relented and allowed release of the film. Simply because officially releasing it they could put conditions on its use in court rather than the court deciding its own conditions. Incidently, the pilots hadn't been trained in British vehicle recognition which must surely go down as inadequate training. While friendly fire is always a problem in the fog of war, most friendly fire incidents by Americans on allied troops have not been in the fog of war, despite senior American officiers making that claim. They are by American pilots safely snug in their cockpits without an enemy that can touch them. Inadequate training seems to be the common factor in most incidents.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/7/2007 8:41:27 AM)
GOD DAMN BRITS LETS KILL THE LOT OF EM oh wait.. its the american's we're bashing here... (please change BRIT to YANKS)

meatcleaver -> RE: Old Vid. Americans kill Brit (2/7/2007 8:53:27 AM)
Actually I'm more pissed off with the British government in this incident than with Americans. It was the British government that told the family of the soldier that no video existed when they knew it did. The British had liason officers at the inquiry and never relayed what had happened to the family. I'm utterly pissed off with the British government for the contempt they have for British forces, especially when they are really only in Iraq for diplomatic cover for the US.

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