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Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 12:11:24 AM   
OedipusRexIt


Posts: 634
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline 		I see the Lady/Tramp paradox rampant in the profiles of many female submissives.  You know, a Lady in public, Tramp in private...

So, I wondered:  What is the male equivalent?  Is there one, or some corollary.  Or is it perhaps merely a reflection of male preferences, as seen through female eyes, without a male equivalent?

The most interesting responses, to me, will be from female posters.

... and for the record, the Lady/Tramp thing has always scored with me.  No secret there.

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 12:40:31 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I don't see that sort of duality in a lot of men.. some, perhaps, but not a lot. Those who would painted with the brushstroke of 'cheap' or 'easy' or 'tramp' if they were women, instead will be high 5'd by their buddies for their scoring ability. In part, I think that's because guys just don't let words have that much power over them because such words have never been used to try to hurt them. Use a word that denigrates a males 'manhood' or sexual prowess though.. that's another story. I would be insulted if some stranger came up to me and called me a slut or a whore. If someone came up to Michael and called him that, he'd probably just wink and laugh and maybe invite the guy over to dinner.

Celeste



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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 3:12:58 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		1. Well, this isn't an equivalent in the strict sense, but there is always the "beef-cake" guy who's maybe not so bright, but looks great - your classic Cosmo magazine male "pin-up" - he's being objectfied as much as any steroetypical Lady or Tramp, I think.

But no, there isn't an enduring duality, (to use Bita's term) for the 'in the bedroom vs. outside the bedroom" (or inside or outside of sexual or bdsm activity) - he just is always a hunky buch of beef-cake, no matter where he is -  he looks as good in a tux as on the beach or the bath-tub. And it doesn't matter if he makes sense when he talks - because nobody's valuing him for his brain to begin with.

*But - maybe the "beef-cake" stereotype hasn't been enduring in an "in your face" way because it hasn't been contemplated a lot by some as such - but it's existed as a stereo-type for decades (maybe a lot longer), it seems to me, in many ways (maybe just not gotten as much publicity as the Lady-Tramp stereotype). 

2. I think sometimes the sterotyped "Playboy/Player" (as shallow and possibly conniving, but great-looking and smooth-talking) is a form of objectification of men. Some women seem to respond to that persona in a certain, predictable way (which is the goal - those being "played" are not always "innocent victims" and know perfectly well they're being played, and may not, or plain don't care -  because they enjoy it all - the whole charade - as much as the man (just as you mentioned the Lady/Tramp duality scores with you). That stereo-type is a form of objectification of men (to me).

If it hasn't been publicized as much as Lady/Tramp I think it might be because some women value other things in men over looks or extreme sociability with women, whereas it's pretty well-known most men value attractiveness in a woman.  

*My criteria here (#2, above) don't include whether the stereotype or objectification benefits the man, or the woman (but to "keep it simple", I am presuming a hertero encounter, although it could certainly apply to homosexual ones as well). 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/31/2007 3:44:13 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 3:18:28 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		uh-huh...The consumate gentleman in public and whatEVER his mistress wanted in private.

And I'm thinking of just the man - and he's a pro basketball player...but damn it all if I can't remember his name. I'll have to find it later. He and his wife are in an article in Essence Magazine right now and taking a LOT of heat for the way he and she live their lives. They're unabashedly open about it too.

Crap.. At least I THINK it's Essence. I was just reading it last night.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 1/31/2007 3:19:09 AM >

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 5:16:50 AM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

I see the Lady/Tramp paradox rampant in the profiles of many female submissives.  You know, a Lady in public, Tramp in private...

So, I wondered:  What is the male equivalent?


Our language and ingrained cultural beliefs do not allow one.  As Bita said, if a man is sexually active, that is seen as a positive thing.  There is no male equivalent of "slut" in the English language, nothing that carries that sort of negative connotation.  The terms that come closest, stud, beef-cake, etc., are inherently positive.  Years ago, my dad told me that the racial slur for "Irish" was mic, but it failed to take hold because you cannot insult an Irishman by calling him Irish since it is a source of pride, no matter what word you use.  I think in the same way, you can't insult a man by saying he's overly virile.

The unfairness of it ticks me off, and I am on mission to reclaim the word "slut" in the same way that homosexuals reclaimed the word "gay." 

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 6:28:40 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		What about Geek/Animal, Respectful/forcefull, loving/Sadist?

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 7:03:38 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		The dominant agressive business man who goes home to grovel on his knees to his wife/Mistress is one I can think of off the top of my head.

Master Fire


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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 8:54:05 AM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		When I first met my Dominant, it was a public setting--a very normal environment.  He opened doors for me.  He complimented my eyes.  He held my hand and made me laugh.   When we finally spent time behind closed doors, I was completely knocked off my feet by how sadistic and 'mean' (as I've come to fondly call it) he became. The sweet guy/sadistic bastard paradox seems close to the lady/tramp paradox to me anyway.

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"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 1:23:03 PM   
reamer


Posts: 57
Joined: 1/16/2007
Status: offline 		Being a social duality with a woman is like giving her 2 gifts rather than one, so yes, males do this.

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 4:09:50 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

What about Geek/Animal, Respectful/forcefull, loving/Sadist?


Great point, I think.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to onestandingstill)
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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 4:26:44 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I don't think the lady/tramp paradox for the most part exists, if the being a tramp means being a tramp to one partner in private, which is what most of the profiles say they want. All they are saying is that they want to have an unihibited physical relationship with the bloke they choose. That to me is not being a tramp, it is playing at it.

Now a tramp to me(though I wouldn't normally use a perjorative word), is a woman who has sex in a similar way to many men would have sex if they could find enough women, free from the entanglement of an involved relationship, a one night stand. I'll see you next week if we are both horny enough and at a loose end with not one else to fuck. A night's fuck for entertainment and to subdue the horn.

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 5:04:36 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe worth mentioning, maybe not -But - until the birth control pill came out in the 1960's, I think (one of) the biggest reasons most women were afraid of rampant, uninhibited sex w/several (or even one) man, was fear of getting pregnant.

It's no societal secret that when this happens, the woman is the one who actually raises the child most of the time, if no shot-gun marriage takes place (not that a shot-gun marriage is a wonderful idea, either). So, if a Lady/Tramp paradox exists, I do understand why, to a degree - and also why there may not be a comparable comparison for men. Or maybe that doesn't really explain why there may not be a comparable comparison for men, It was a thought, anyway.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/31/2007 5:06:11 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)
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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 1/31/2007 5:17:36 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

When I first met my Dominant, it was a public setting--a very normal environment.  He opened doors for me.  He complimented my eyes.  He held my hand and made me laugh.   When we finally spent time behind closed doors, I was completely knocked off my feet by how sadistic and 'mean' (as I've come to fondly call it) he became. The sweet guy/sadistic bastard paradox seems close to the lady/tramp paradox to me anyway.


My favorite moments are those when someone comments "...But you're too nice to be a dominant!", especially when she is screaming OMIGAWD you BASTARD! a few hours later. It's happened more than once.
 
heh.

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 2/2/2007 7:14:01 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

..But you're too nice to be a dominant!"



HA!  Those of us that know you know better.  ;)

I hear that a lot, too, and as everyone here knows - there is nothing nice about me at all. 


_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 2/2/2007 7:29:46 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

..But you're too nice to be a dominant!"



HA!  Those of us that know you know better.  ;)

I hear that a lot, too, and as everyone here knows - there is nothing nice about me at all. 


MizSuz:
Nothing at all?  I would disagree but then I am a slut.
thompson

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RE: Lady/Tramp Paradox - 2/2/2007 2:40:20 PM   
LTRsubNW


Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

..But you're too nice to be a dominant!"



HA!  Those of us that know you know better.  ;)

I hear that a lot, too, and as everyone here knows - there is nothing nice about me at all. 



I was informed (through sources as yet unnamed) that you were up for the Nobel Niceness Prize.

I've also been informed more often than I care to count..."are you sure you're a sub?"
 
("Yes....for the right woman...absolutely")

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 2/2/2007 2:43:20 PM >

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Small deeds will always mean more than large intentions.

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