Marriage, life and change

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obis -> Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 2:13:50 AM)
Due to a spate of recent divorces in my and my friends' families, I've been giving a lot of thought to what is realistic to expect of a 30+ year relationship, particularly with the added complexity of BDSM. Obviously everyone changes over time, hopefully growing for the better and becoming more of who they want to be. And if you're growing while living every day with another person, ideally both of you would grow in ways that were compatible and complimentary. But anecdotal evidence, and divorce statistics, seem not to bear this out. There are some complaints from my married friends of all ages and inclinations that are so common they really frighten me. After marriage, the "comfort" sets in and the stereotypical once-a-month sex becomes more than just a joke on sitcoms. And when unmentionable offspring come, the woman turns much of the love and affection she had for her husband on the offspring, basically leaving the man on his own emotionally. The male cliche would be that he has an affair or leaves his wife for a younger woman. Of course these are HUGE generalizations, but I look at relationships around me and see them happening way too often for my comfort. My question to the board is whether in your experience of BDSM relationships these issues are better, worse, the same? I think that people into BDSM have a higher than average sex drive, which I could see counteracting some of these tendencies towards marriages becoming live-in friendships. But offspring in particular change so much of life that it's difficult to know how the romantic relationship will look afterwards. I remember hearing horror stories about a couple flying away on the honeymoon and the woman turning to her husband and saying "Now that we're married we can quit doing this BDSM play and be responsible adults". I could easily imagine the same being said after reproducing. I couldn't even say I'd blame a woman or man for feeling that way -- caring for your little ones is your foremost responsibility in the world. I'm selfish. I want sex and love and passion and ropes and spanking for 30+ years. I don't plan on neglecting my responsibilities, or expect my wife to do all the heavy lifting around the house and then be ready for hours of bondage every night. I know there will be rough spots and months where sex is just not a priority because other things are going on. But I'm frightened by my complete lack of good role model relationships that have lasted for 30+ years and still have passion on both sides. I hate the idea of not being able to live with and love someone for a lifetime, but I don't want to break her heart and leave her single at 60 when she decides D/s and sex is no longer interesting, and it's still important to me. Anyone else worry about this? Or have inspiring stories to share so us youngins can stop being so damn cynical? :)

SusanofO -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 2:41:23 AM)
I am not the person to ask about whether such difficulties can be overcome. For one thing, I was married for years to someone I eventually concluded was probably completely asexual, not simply not just interested in bdsm as a component of their sexuality. It was a situation where the term "irreconcilable differences" was definitely applicable. It takes two people to want to cooperate along this line, and I have seen plenty of divorces myself, and plenty of marriages where the partners seem '"comfortable" yet not all that excited by, one another. However, I have seen (personally) happy, long-term marriages where both partners seem fulfilled in eacother's presence after, say, 20 plus years. I know a few people who personally attest that they are just as "hot" for eachother as they were when they first fell in love. I also have to say that I've known people who married with a non-committal attitude, thinking "Well, if it doesn't work, I'll just get a divorce." I guess my feeling about that kind of attitude is: That isn't the kind of person who I'd want to bother marrying. If they don't want to be in it for the long haul, why bother getting married? I mean, marriage isn't the be-all, end-all relationship - there are other fullfilling kinds out there. So - if someone really isn't that into the idea, I can't imagine why they'd do it - except maybe social pressure, possibly. But, I say that in retrospect. I am not sure I'd have said that at 25, or even 35. I also realize that's not the issue (or your situaion) here. I guess that was a slight mini-rant on the idea of why some people (whom I know) get married. I still believe love is possible, long term. I still believe that there is maybe someone out there that will be much more compatibe with me than anything I experienced in my marriage, or with my ex-Dominant. I am not risk-averse, either, because of having had that experience. I believe it's possible to have a great fulfilling, romantic, searingly hot sexual and emotionally fulfilling relationship. IF you find the right person to begin with to attempt it with you. But, the caveat seems to be, with the happier married couples I've known about, that both of them still feel a real love and definite physical attraction to eachother (not just one or the other), and they really work at keeping that alive with things like frequent week-ends away from it all (to stay physically, sexually "connected"), and they probably really take time to communicate their needs to eachother. They seem to feel a committment and a loyalty to the other, it seems, that just isn't "destroyable", really, by other folks, or outside challenging forces. Although I imagine it's not always been easy for them. All I can do is admire these people (I am not saying it couldn't happen for me, but I tend to think some of that stuff really is "fated" - but that is a whole other discussion - and a really long one, too). These aren't marriages where bdsm is involved - but I can't imagine that when it is, the "game plan" is that much different - because it's just another aspect of sexuality one would need to work at keeping alive in the relationship. It might require more attention to do that - but, presumably folks who are into it and also married, are committed and want to do that anyway. If they're both not (or one isn't) then I think a relationship does (or can) rapidly (or slowly) dissolve other good things (even those not related to sex) about the relationship, sometimes. So - it's probably essential that both partners are "on board" from the outset re: What they want in the long-term. I'd tell someone (if I knew) just what that was, and if they weren't into it, then I'd seriously consider whether they could change (or if they even really want to change, or have to. And if they don't, or won't, whether I want to stay). Sometimes, thigs can be worked on, regardless, and some sort of compromise can be reached. Sometimes not. I'd talk about it with them now (as far as finding out if you're "on the same page" re: What kind of bdsm things you might want to be doing at , say, age 60). But -I'd also keep in mind that life (IMO) can throw all sorts of curve-balls that could re-arrange your entire "game plan" with you having no say in it whatsoever. Things like: Long-term illness, or accidents, or financial reverses, or having a disabled child, etc. If you are dealing with someone who would run from these things, they most likely are not "marriage material" to begin with - because compared to these things, bdsm and sexual fulfillment might be considered (by some) as "small potatoes". I could be completely off-base here, but - I am thinking if a prospective partner could deal with these kinds of life challenges, they could handle the bdsm stuff (it can pale in comparision. At least from my perspective. Although I will say a lack of sexual fulfillment can be darn hard to deal with, too). Anyway - I think it's a great topic, and one to take seriously, and am glad you brought it up. I mean - if you're going to marry someone, think about what you'll do if issues that can really divide two people crop up - sometimes there is no totally satisfying solution, but there is a compromise that can be reached that will not altogether destroy things. But - that's not what you're aiming for, I know. I think communication and love are key ingredients (besides being on the "same page", probably). I guess it might just require ongoing attention - and noticing if things graudally start to become "mundane" or "less exciting" - but not panicking if they temporarily do that. - just maybe decide (together) what to do about it. As for a woman deciding after she has kids to no longer do bdsm activity, well - I am sure there are things folks don't do around unmentionables they may have done before they have any. But that can be worked around (babysitters, go to a hotel for a week-end, etc.). I don't really see why it would be way different from dealing with challenges in a "vanilla" marriage - at least from a general standpoint. Good luck. I think it's great you're thinking about it at all. And I am no expert on this stuff - not by a long shot. But, so many people, I imagine, probably don't even contemplate the long-term. It's just refeshng to see someone write about it. I appreciated the thread topic. - Susan

Fort -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 2:53:03 AM)
One of the reasons you don't see a lot of good role models for long-term BDSM marriages is that the language describing such relationships hasn't been mainstream for very long. I can attest to knowing of many such marriages, but since these couples never participate in public BDSM forums you would simply never know what they are. It really does take immense commitment, love and life-long attraction to make it work through children, health crises, job crises, money crises, and all the hoopla that a long life will throw in your path. They're out there, those older d/s couples, they're just quite private in their expression of it. I personally know one 80 year old woman who had been sub to her master for all their married life of 50+ years, so I hope you'll take heart and decide to be that good role model yourself someday.

SusanofO -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 4:16:35 AM)
It also just struck me that the one thing some may not consider when discussing these things with a prospective partner is just how they feel about things like Polyamory vs. Monogamy. There seems (to me, generally) to be a huge divide between people who would consider Poly (finding a secondary partner) an okay solution to a marital relationship that was becoming almost deathly unexciting (if working on it wasn't getting the desired results, that is) and those who'd consider that tsolution to be some irreconcilable violation of the whole idea behind marriage. This possibility (and Poly solution) might even be something you'd want to discuss with a potential serious partner (that is a real judgment call, and maybe you already know the answer, for both of you). Just a thought that cam to me as I was reading another thread. - Susan

sub4hire -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 7:04:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fort They're out there, those older d/s couples, they're just quite private in their expression of it. I personally know one 80 year old woman who had been sub to her master for all their married life of 50+ years, so I hope you'll take heart and decide to be that good role model yourself someday. This is true. I've lived in the midwest for 3 month's now and met more people who practice the lifestyle on a day to day basis with their partners than I had in a lifetime in California in the mainstream groups. People don't call it D/s here at least not yet. Education is on their way. They can it a traditional marriage where the woman obeys the man in most aspects. Most of them have been togehter 20+ years. They are out there, you just have to look in the right places.

thetammyjo -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 7:05:48 AM)
I think whenever someone because so comfortable in a relationship that they forget relationships are also work, then trouble or unhappiness is on the way. People need to schedule time in their lives for each especially in societies where success is often measured not by the quality of relationships but the possession of items or the number of awards on the walls. I don't think it matter where the relationship is vanilla or kinky or somewhere in between. I think this comfort is born partly from the fiction that getting married or in a committed relationship is the end of the work, you have the idea that now you "have" someone. I imagine that can happen in Ds as well. It takes mutual committment to continue the work of communication and connection. I think the other fiction that works in these relationships is that people grow together and should only turn to each other. I think you can grow together but at the same time you grow as individuals. I believe that it relationships are most happy when each person encourages the other's growth but works also on the communication and connection so they also can grow together.

asassylilslave -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 8:26:49 AM)
at 18 I met and married a man who introduced me to the lifestyle; it was 7 years before I had a lil'one. In the years that followed, our dynamic in no way lessened or changed, it was the same as from the first day we were together. I think that people who complain about things going 'stale' are the ones that LET it go stale. They forget that a relationship of any kind takes alot of work, alot of time, alot of patience, alot of compromise, and alot of self-discipline on all sides. ( of course, this only my own opinion )

MaryT -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 8:56:49 AM)
I cannot think in terms of "'till death do us part" anymore. Things change, people change, circumstances change, and permanence is the illusion. It's hard enough for me to simply grasp and fully appreciate "now." [:)]

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 9:14:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obis My question to the board is whether in your experience of BDSM relationships these issues are better, worse, the same? I think that people into BDSM have a higher than average sex drive, which I could see counteracting some of these tendencies towards marriages becoming live-in friendships. But offspring in particular change so much of life that it's difficult to know how the romantic relationship will look afterwards. I have seen absolutely no evidence that suggests that bdsmers treat sex and sexuality or have a different perspective on it any differently than non-bdsmers. quote: I remember hearing horror stories about a couple flying away on the honeymoon and the woman turning to her husband and saying "Now that we're married we can quit doing this BDSM play and be responsible adults". LOL yes, I have heard this story from many a bdsmer who wandered back into the public scene after years of repression. quote: Anyone else worry about this? Or have inspiring stories to share so us youngins can stop being so damn cynical? :) It is rather depressing, but it's not at all surprising. What generation HAS had good role models for solid mature relationships? This IMO is only the first or second generation in America where it hasn't been considered what half the people (women) simply SHOULD do as their life goal, and hasn't been considered what everyone SHOULD do before they even figure out who they really are for themselves yet. People get into lifelong commitments and start having new people to raise before they even know who they are really about and gained confidence in that- a sure recipe for disaster. Not that the "old ways" were always disastrous or that it can't happen for young people- but the way it's been working obviously doesn't really "work" for most people. So we have to make OURSELVES the best example we can. I also don't consider it a tragedy if a relationship ends. Ending does not mean death or even wrongness. Sometimes people DO change and they DO need to end the relationship and it's nothing more than allowing everyone to be true to themselves- the "true" definition of love for me.

julietsierra -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 9:23:04 AM)
When I first read this thread, I had this long and drawn out post all written and ready to send...and then thought better of it. In the end, the core message of that long-winded post ended up being that a marriage - whether it has a bdsm or vanilla component in it or not - is a loving, working, business arrangement and if all three of those components are not attended to, then regardless of the good intentions of either one of the parties, it's probably going to fail. I do know couples who have a M/s dynamic and who've been married 30+ years. If there's one thing I have noticed about their marriages is that they really DO keep all three of those components in proper perspective. They love together, they work together on their marriage and for the good of their marriage and they never forget that their relationship is more important than either of them individually, and so keep the business of their marriage on an even keel. They've raised their children. They have grandchildren and a wide circle of friends and acquaintances, but at the center of this wide-ranging group, consisiting both of family and friends, THEY are a unit. Even though they love their children and grandchildren and friends, they love each other more and make darn sure nothing and no one comes between each other and the life they've built together. There ARE role models out there. juliet

Lashra -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 9:45:56 AM)
I have found that if the man helps in the caring of the children that usually inspires the wife not only to love him even more, but to devote more time to him. Men who think child rearing is all woman's work usually are the one's who find themselves cold and horny. Taking care of children is HARD work and it is very tiring as well. There are ways to keep the spark alive its just a matter of two people who really want to work together to keep that going. It requires open communication and honesty. Also I think a man who would just up and leave his wife for a younger woman, just wasn't that devoted to her to begin with. If you love someone TALK to them and try to work things out before you just up and leave. I no respect for people who just up and leave without trying. ~Lashra

julietsierra -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 11:07:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I have found that if the man helps in the caring of the children that usually inspires the wife not only to love him even more, but to devote more time to him. Men who think child rearing is all woman's work usually are the one's who find themselves cold and horny. Taking care of children is HARD work and it is very tiring as well. I was reading a sociology textbook the other day (it was a current edition), and in the chapter on family, there was a comment that was pretty stark. It said that in whatever studies they were quoting (and I don't have the book with me, so I can't give the data), women in families with children where both adults in the home were working outside the home were up to EIGHT times more dissatisfied with married life than the men in those same homes. The book went on to say that this was in large part due to the fact that (in general), men tend to contribute to household chores minimally, leaving the lion's share of the workload to the women who must do this on top of their outside work ventures. The book also said that men typically leave the child-rearing responsibilities to the women (diaper changing, feeding, etc), believing (sometimes in large part to us helping them believe) that they don't really know what to do or how to do it. The bottom line is that when women are putting in the same number of hours a week in at work that their husbands are, and then coming home to another 5-6 hours of work, plus the responsibilities of being the person to wake up in the middle of the night for crying children, having sex - even with their husbands that they love - is really not at the top of their fantasy lists - SLEEP is. And Master or not, if you don't want your submissive/slave/WIFE falling asleep in the middle of your magnificent masterpiece of sexual prowess, or not being very enthusiastic when you let her know what her evening is going to be like, then without being asked or directed (who's the dominant here anyway?), pick up a broom or a dustcloth, fold some clothes, change a diaper, be the person to get up in the middle of the night, etc. By cutting down on the sheer amount your submissive/slave/wife has to do that are the basics of every day life and the reality of a house with children in it, I can pretty much bet that you're going to get a more responsive and enthusiastic submissive/slave/wife/LOVER - and one who will think that she's the absolute luckiest person in the entire world for having you in her life. And here's a clue: If you know more about what happened in every show on the line up of any given night than your wife does...then there's a pretty good chance she could use some help. juliet

SlaveAkasha -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 11:13:40 AM)
I think the key to making things last and work is that ours isn't just a D/s relationship.. we are loving outside of that, and consider ourselves more than Master and slave. I don't know if that makes it any easier for us that others, but I know it can't hurt things. We are still new in our relationship, but I hope us communicating and being open will make it last for many, many years. Every day life will get in the way of any relationship, it's the commitment to making this work and not letting each other be taken for granted I think that's the key to keeping it more like new. Kasha

sublizzie -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 1:12:19 PM)
In a couple of months my parents will have been married for 55 years. They are D/s, though they wouldn't ever call it that. They are still very sexually active, which was WAY more than I wanted to know as their daughter! (Dad told me that my mother is glad now that they're in their 70's they're only having sex once a night. Mom chimed in with "it used to be 7-8 times" and laughing. Geesh! Did I need to know that????) They never took weekends away from us until I was ready to be married myself. Dad is so hard of hearing that, even with his hearing aides, he only hears 10% of any given conversation. He's always been very hard of hearing so communication is something both of them have to work hard at, VERY hard. Mom started working outside the home when I was 10 and continued working in one capacity or another until about 5 years ago. But the big thing with them was that they both respect each other and they are both committed to the relationship. Love is nice, but respect and committment will keep things going when you feel nothing but hatred for your partner. (No one loves all of the time!)

KnightofMists -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 2:15:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obis I'm selfish. I want sex and love and passion and ropes and spanking for 30+ years. I don't plan on neglecting my responsibilities, or expect my wife to do all the heavy lifting around the house and then be ready for hours of bondage every night. I know there will be rough spots and months where sex is just not a priority because other things are going on. But I'm frightened by my complete lack of good role model relationships that have lasted for 30+ years and still have passion on both sides. I hate the idea of not being able to live with and love someone for a lifetime, but I don't want to break her heart and leave her single at 60 when she decides D/s and sex is no longer interesting, and it's still important to me. I am selfish too.... and frankly... the pleasure of life is a priority Regardless of the challenges or issues that I face along the way. alandra and I started our relationship back in the summer of 87. Has it always been an easy road? NO... but it has always been an easy decision to want to be in her life and her in mine. I just can't imagine my future without seeing alandra in it... to consider otherwise just seems so wrong and even painful to consider. I thought I was in love with her years ago... but I kept finding that day by day our depth of love just kept growing and never stopping. It's to the point that I look to tomorrow with excited becuase my experience has showed me that I will be loved and love her even more than I do today. My experience with alandra has also had a extremely positive effect on my relationship with kyra. When I first touched her gently on the cheek that first time we saw each other... I felt a deep sense of love... but today that love seems pale in comparions to the way I feel now... god I can hardly wait for tomorrow.

Lashra -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 5:49:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I have found that if the man helps in the caring of the children that usually inspires the wife not only to love him even more, but to devote more time to him. Men who think child rearing is all woman's work usually are the one's who find themselves cold and horny. Taking care of children is HARD work and it is very tiring as well. It said that in whatever studies they were quoting (and I don't have the book with me, so I can't give the data), women in families with children where both adults in the home were working outside the home were up to EIGHT times more dissatisfied with married life than the men in those same homes. The book went on to say that this was in large part due to the fact that (in general), men tend to contribute to household chores minimally, leaving the lion's share of the workload to the women who must do this on top of their outside work ventures. The book also said that men typically leave the child-rearing responsibilities to the women (diaper changing, feeding, etc), believing (sometimes in large part to us helping them believe) that they don't really know what to do or how to do it. The bottom line is that when women are putting in the same number of hours a week in at work that their husbands are, and then coming home to another 5-6 hours of work, plus the responsibilities of being the person to wake up in the middle of the night for crying children, having sex - even with their husbands that they love - is really not at the top of their fantasy lists - SLEEP is. And Master or not, if you don't want your submissive/slave/WIFE falling asleep in the middle of your magnificent masterpiece of sexual prowess, or not being very enthusiastic when you let her know what her evening is going to be like, then without being asked or directed (who's the dominant here anyway?), pick up a broom or a dustcloth, fold some clothes, change a diaper, be the person to get up in the middle of the night, etc. By cutting down on the sheer amount your submissive/slave/wife has to do that are the basics of every day life and the reality of a house with children in it, I can pretty much bet that you're going to get a more responsive and enthusiastic submissive/slave/wife/LOVER - and one who will think that she's the absolute luckiest person in the entire world for having you in her life. And here's a clue: If you know more about what happened in every show on the line up of any given night than your wife does...then there's a pretty good chance she could use some help. juliet This is the exact reason that I am divorced. My ex husband felt that all child rearing, housework, yardwork, house maintenance, car maintenance and everything else including a full time job, was the wife's duty. A man should have to do nothing but go to work and come home with everything taken care of for him. Well he was dead wrong and I divorced him for that and his daughter can't stand him. She doesn't even really know him as he spent his free time on the computer playing online games. He never spent any quality time with her nor me, so now he is alone with his cat. ~Lashra

cloudboy -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 9:55:46 PM)
Marriage can become a trap --- and many forces are in play to make it so: societal expectations of lifelong monogamy, moralism, religious codes of behavior, and family expectations. What I find funny is how the gallery think Marrieds should be honest with one another, when if in fact such honesty might disrupt all the strictures listed above, when honesty would explode as a threatening, sinful, non conformity. IMO, the best marriages are forgiving ones wherein the partners allow each other latitude and understanding. This fosters a climate of honesty, team work, and problem solving. Unfortunately, many marrieds just aren't wired to think out of the box and can be rather closed minded about the institution itself. The result can be repression, bitterness, and nasty breakups. Also, from what I see, many couples simply file their own individual longing away for the betterment of the family and children, and to sublimate that loss take up bridge, golf, or whatever. As usual, the most opinionated people about marriage, in my experience here, are the unmarried, never been married, and divorced. These folks think they have it all figured out. They're a funny bunch indeed.

szobras -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/20/2007 10:22:46 PM)
My wife and I will celebrate our 12th Annaversary this coming May. One important aspect of our original mutual attraction was that we were both already in the lifestyle. Coming up on twelve years, we are still in the lifestyle though many all aspects have changed much over the years. Make no mistake, it has not always been easy, we have grown together, and in some ways grown apart. Be it in the lifestyle or "Vanilla" as some would call it, we have done it together. The same principles applied. Honesty, Loyalty, integrity, dedication, commitment and respect. I have heard it said that marriage is "Sacred." To Sacrifice means "to make something sacred." The life that we both have created together is no longer one of 24/7 D/s dymanic. It is one that has grown through the forementioned principles, the selflessness, support , and compassion for each other into a way of life that we both benifit together. I am a Dominant man, one whom in my marriage, Works, cooks, cleans, is an active father to my children, and whatever else it takes to maintain our best interests.We share these as equally as each days balance will allow. That does not in my eyes, nor hers make me any less of a dominant male., and it is what is in our eyes that matter. It is OUR D/s. We do both have D/s relationships with others on different levels, and support each other in those endevours, and relationships. Strange as it may appear to some. The dynamic is there for us but not always together. Not the same as used to be. major parts of our future that we both wanted in life required that sacrifice.The life that we created together and continue to recreate as time goes on requires much more than either one could possibly handle alone. Would it serve our relationship, me as a dominant male, or the well being of my wife and slave to deteriorate all that we have come to love in each other for D/s "status"? Not in our BDSM. What we have discovered, and please do not think that I would claim the process easy,is a way of life that compliments who we are. Not attempting to become someone or something else to fit into the paramiters of a set lifestyle based on what others think. It is ours, and that is who it matters to.

proudsub -> RE: Marriage, life and change (1/21/2007 1:28:13 PM)
quote: My question to the board is whether in your experience of BDSM relationships these issues are better, worse, the same? We've been maried 38 yrs but knew nothing of bdsm until about 5 years ago. It certainly has spiced up our sex life, which had become pretty routine and boring. It has also given a new and exciting meaning to the rest of our relationship. Even though i had always treated Him like a king, i never understood why this worked for us until i learned about this lifestyle.[:)]

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