RE: Do agree or Disagree?

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asassylilslave -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 7:39:16 PM)
Yes, I agree with it. If I reach a goal at being 'great' at something, the only one who benefits from me doing so is me. though I also have to agree that no matter how great one thinks they are; there is always room for improvement.

akisha -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 7:47:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists A quote that I just heard..... "Anyone that is Great at what they do.. does it for their own approval and not someone elses" Do you agree? Or Do you disagree? Why or Why Not? I would agree in the sense that the one person I strive to be better then is myself. I am my biggest competitor in all things. I judge myself the harshest, and demand the most from myself, so yes in a sense I strive to attain th goals I have set for myself. I do not need the approval of others to feel successful. But... I do desire the approval of the people I respect, and there for strive to please them whilest doing my best for myself. If you only ever try to be good or great at something for someone elses gratification you will never really achieve your goal. Just like no one will respect you if you do not respect your self, I believe that unless you care how good you are at a a task, no one else is going to. Just look at the people to bend over backwards trying to please and suck up to the boss but constantly get over looked.

adaddysgirl -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 8:21:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MaryT The people who I think were great did not have great egos. Thinking along the lines of Nelson Mandella, Ghandi, Mother Theresa, etc. They really were not hung up on their own approval ... or anyone else's. I think it was Scott Peck who pointed out that an extreme need for self approval characterizes men on death row. Very successful men and men on death row were asked the same question: What is the most important thing in your life? The convicts answered, "My self esteem." The successful men answered, "Myself." Any of the three people mentioned above would like answer, "The well-being of others." So, I disagree. The great ones do not cater to anyone's approval, including their own. [:)] MaryT i don't really see a 'great ego' as the same thing as 'self approval'. i think you can approve of what you do, feel happy about it, content about it....or fulfilled (as i used before) without having a big ego about it. Don't you think that these people felt some satisfaction in what they did....which led to self approval? And obviously most of those they affected appreciated them too. It's a wonderful circle when you are good at something, you enjoy doing because it feels good to you, and others benefit from it in some way....if you approve of yourself and they approve of you also. That's how i think it was for those you mentioned above. Obviously, if someone is great at something but doesn't feel good about it and only does it for others, then that's another story. Or conversely, if someone is great at something and does feel good about it but gets no approval from others, then i guess that's a different story too. Again shrugs, only because i don't usually continue doing something i don't find fulfilling regardless of how well i do it or how much other's 'approve' of it. i guess i would even be more apt to do it for myself even if others didn't approve....but i did. But that's just me, of course. DG

domiguy -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 9:02:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists A quote that I just heard..... "Anyone that is Great at what they do.. does it for their own approval and not someone elses" Do you agree? Or Do you disagree? Why or Why Not? I think too many folks have deviated off the meaning of the op (can only guess since the op might be crazy...lol) The term is "GREAT" at what they do! Now many folks will attain some form of success or competence at a chosen field or profession...But how many reach "Greatness?" Seems that lofty term should be set aside for someone who not only learned from peers or forerunners but then took their teachings and expanded upon that material with their own personal characteristics and flavor! Thereby to achieve "GREATNESS" one has to tread where others have not dared...so their approval is rather meaningless for they didn't posess the resolve,vision nor ability to push the envelope like someone who is truly "GREAT." I don't believe the truly GREAT ever stopped once to see if there was acknowledgement or approval from anyone....They do their thing and if the accolades come so be it. out. D.G. p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

juliaoceania -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 9:14:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists A quote that I just heard..... "Anyone that is Great at what they do.. does it for their own approval and not someone elses" Do you agree? Or Do you disagree? Why or Why Not? I agree that this is true some of the time. I was truly great at playing basketball when I was young. I could make a shot anywhere along the key. I could make 3 point shots like crazy. I made the high school team without trying out. I played for myself I thought... but after my father passed away, I lost interest in playing entirely because part of my motivation was my father's pride... he went to all my games. I do not think motivations are so easily defined to be honest with you. A person can have multiple motivations. These include intrinsic motivation, achievement motivation, economic motivations, motivated by fear is another... all these can overlap.... so it is not that clearcut from what I know about what motivates people

SimplyMichael -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 9:41:15 PM)
One only has to look at those who are driven hardest to succeed and the emotional issues they all to often deal with to know the answer to that one.

szobras -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 9:48:13 PM)
I read this quote, and what first comes to my mind is,"What makes something, or someone,..Great"? I cannot place myself as one that is able to know the deepest perceptions of so many that form a collective opinion to grant such a label. I myself do strive to achieve in my craft , results that need gain the approval of the public, and my peers. It is my job. I continue to strive for higher personal accomplishments for many reasons. I have come to believe for me, that what I do is not a job. It is a much deeper part of who I am. It has become my resposablity to continue and share it. Does any of this make me or my work great? I think not. I have heard some of my work called that by much respected peers in my field. Still, I see it as an opinion. At times , I have found the personal "fulfillment", that some have spoken here. I believe that fulfillment is more pride in accomplishment, though very rare.I believe true greatness, is something that is on a much higher level than that of self or collective opinions, though clearly that is what defines most things. Either way, It comes down to individual perception I feel. Just" My opinion."

adaddysgirl -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 10:44:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I think too many folks have deviated off the meaning of the op (can only guess since the op might be crazy...lol) The term is "GREAT" at what they do! Now many folks will attain some form of success or competence at a chosen field or profession...But how many reach "Greatness?" Seems that lofty term should be set aside for someone who not only learned from peers or forerunners but then took their teachings and expanded upon that material with their own personal characteristics and flavor! Thereby to achieve "GREATNESS" one has to tread where others have not dared...so their approval is rather meaningless for they didn't posess the resolve,vision nor ability to push the envelope like someone who is truly "GREAT." I don't believe the truly GREAT ever stopped once to see if there was acknowledgement or approval from anyone....They do their thing and if the accolades come so be it. out. D.G. p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers. Oh good grief! He said great at what you do....not if you are a renowned expert or something. For all we know, he could be questioning himself. Maybe he's a great flogger.....does he do it for his approval or someone else's? He certainly isn't indicating he's talking about Einstein or winning Pulitzers here. Great at what you do....and many people here are great at something or another, no? DG

studrottweiler -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 11:01:54 PM)
The relationship between greatness and approval is coincidential. I am great at system administration, troubleshooting, etc... but it has nothing to do with approval. It is from years of study and countless hours of reading, tweaking and learning. I do these things not because I approve of them, but because I am compensated well and it is better than welding upside down hanging from a pipe 20' in the air. I am a great father, not because anyone approves of my parenting philosophies, but because I belive my children are well adjusted and they live the life I wish I would have lived when I was a kid. I don't like (approve of) everything I do as a parent, but I am mindful of my mistakes and learn from them. Greatness is the result of natural ability, synchronous opportunity and hard work. It is possible only through the combination of the three. Assumptions: Greatness = excellence, high performance, the best at something, excels beyond others....

dvart -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/17/2007 11:10:21 PM)
This was something that kept coming up at art school. Conventional wisdom is that a visual artist does work entirely for themselves. In one sense this always has to be true because otherwise one would be following someone else's vision. For work to be any good, you have to follow your vision, your dreams. However visions and dreams aren't constructed in isolation. I work with models and they actually make the work with me, without them much of my work wouldn't be possible. Then there is the influence of fellow artists, audience, galleries, critics, friends, culture and politics. An artist who doesn't relate to these things is simply being self indulgent. But in the end the responsibility about how to relate to this input lies with the artist.

steviemichael -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 12:52:01 AM)
everything we do comes from a selfish reason wether directly or indirectly the acts of selflessness is a very rare thing so agree

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 2:04:31 AM)
Positively not. Humanism .We will do anything to gain esteem in the eyes of those we respect and to be part of the group we admire.

gypsygrl -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 2:25:46 AM)
I disagree because it doesn't ring true for me, personally. When I'm doing something for myself, I don't have nearly the sort of drive that would lead to anything beyond 'adequate to the task at hand'. I get the job done well enough, but not much more. Anything beyond straightforward competance, however, requires some sort of social motivation ie: fear of disapproval or a desire for approval though this disapproval/approval dynamic can take many forms.

eyesopened -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 2:28:10 AM)
How would anyone know they are "Great" at what they do if not for the feedback from other people? i agree a person who is great at what they do may be motivated by an inner desire to do their best. i know i am. i know i take a huge amount of satisfaction knowing i did a job well, but to never get an atta-girl? What if a person does something they think is great and the rest of the people think it stinks? Is that person still "great"?

sleazy -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 3:54:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain Positively not. Humanism .We will do anything to gain esteem in the eyes of those we respect and to be part of the group we admire. Positively not. Those I respect and admire are those that take me as packaged, great bits, bad bits, and the indifferent too.

heartfeltsub -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 4:39:52 AM)
After reading all these answers, the one i think i agree with most is Julia's, that motivations have complex sources which are not easily differentiated from one another, so i don't entirely agree with the quote, the approval of others, in general or specific others (parents, siblings, Masters) can also be part of one's motivation to succeed and be "great" at what one is doing. That being said, i don't think anyone can be truly great without some of the motivation coming from an internal striving to be the best that one can be regardless of how it is viewed by external sources. heartfelt

Fitznicely -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 4:54:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists A quote that I just heard..... "Anyone that is Great at what they do.. does it for their own approval and not someone elses" Do you agree? Or Do you disagree? Why or Why Not? I agree. I'm not particularly great at anything, but what I do, I do to my own satisfaction - although my bosses may believe differently.

onestandingstill -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 7:23:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress i think that both can be true.... I personally agree with Tigress, BUT A caveat on that is a submissive or slave is supposed to only be concerned with her Master's approval which over rides both community and self so where's that leave them in that statement KOM? suzanne

MaryT -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 7:44:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl i don't really see a 'great ego' as the same thing as 'self approval'. i think you can approve of what you do, feel happy about it, content about it....or fulfilled (as i used before) without having a big ego about it. Don't you think that these people felt some satisfaction in what they did....which led to self approval? And obviously most of those they affected appreciated them too. Self-esteem and self-approval mean virtually the same thing. There is a difference between that and simply valuing self as important. Buddhists of a certain lineage have a practice called mitree that translates into unconditional friendliness (with self first and others as one progresses), which is a very different thing than unconditional approval. Peck's whole deal was that the necessity to feel good about oneself is ultimately destructive because it excludes feeling bad, and therefore precludes a course correction. Bush has demonstrated that characteristic in aces. I don't believe Mother Theresa gave a twit about self-approval. Nelson Mandela most certainly did not feel good about his life for a good part of it, nor did he have any idea that anyone appreciated him or even knew he was alive on Robben Island. In both cases, they were reaching for something beyond self - a greater good. That is what made them great. Socrates knew full well that if he didn't shut the hell up, the crowd would kill him. He wasn't aiming for self-approval and certainly not the approval of others - he was trying to get them to clue in. In death, he succeeded, but as the man was in reality atheist (from everything I and my two philosophy instructors could tell), whose approval was he shooting for? Donald Trump is considered great by many, and he definitely is addicted to his own approval and driven in that regard. I think he's a jerk myself. quote: It's a wonderful circle when you are good at something, you enjoy doing because it feels good to you, and others benefit from it in some way....if you approve of yourself and they approve of you also. That's how i think it was for those you mentioned above. Again, I disagree. What they did was not based on feeling good. If it was, they could not have accomplished what they did. quote: Obviously, if someone is great at something but doesn't feel good about it and only does it for others, then that's another story. Beethoven. quote: Or conversely, if someone is great at something and does feel good about it but gets no approval from others, then i guess that's a different story too. Van Gogh. quote: Again shrugs, only because i don't usually continue doing something i don't find fulfilling regardless of how well i do it or how much other's 'approve' of it. I think most of the western world is fairly enslaved doing what they don't want to do because society expects it. It's the human condition, near as I can tell. quote: i guess i would even be more apt to do it for myself even if others didn't approve....but i did. But that's just me, of course. Me too and probably most of us here since we're swimming upstream in following our bliss. [:)] The funny part about this discussion is that I consider my submissive bend to be as much an approval kink as anything else. OTOH, I'm not shooting for greatness in kink. It's all about pleasure. MaryT

dvart -> RE: Do agree or Disagree? (1/18/2007 7:53:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onestandingstill BUT A caveat on that is a submissive or slave is supposed to only be concerned with her Master's approval which over rides both community and self so where's that leave them in that statement KOM? suzanne So does being a slave inhibit artistic expression, since the slave is constrained to a certain extent? I certainly do not stop being an artist when I leave my studio, but a slave might have to. I would be interested to hear from visual artists who define themselves as submissives or slaves. This might point to an interesting difference between submissives and slaves, but I DON'T want to hijack this thread with this never ending topic. ONLY so far as it applies to artistic expression OK?

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