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subfever -> Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 7:03:57 AM)

The following is a message from Larken Rose to his e-mail list. He has given me permission to post this message (in its entirety and unedited) and to post all messages that follow.
 
I've read most of his writings over the past 3-4 years, and have always found them interesting. Hopefully, you will too.
 
BTW... I got a 404 error message when clicking on the link below, and have written to Mr. Rose about this. I'll update when a correction is received:

Dear Subscriber,

In the series of messages to follow, I'd like to say a few things about taxes. First, just to prepare you, I'd like to tell you what I'm NOT going to talk about. I'm NOT going to whine and complain about taxes in general, nor will I opine about how taxes are unfair, unconstitutional, illegal, invalid, immoral, economically-destructive, or in any other way nasty. I'm NOT going to protest or object to any tax. I'm also NOT going to talk about how to get out of paying taxes, or how to use some loophole or financial or legal trickery to avoid or reduce taxes. And I'm NOT going to advocate that any law be disobeyed, or that any law be
repealed, or that any tax law policy be changed. (It's easy to find
plenty of other people who will be glad to talk about those things
until they're blue in the face. I'm not going to.)

The only topic I WILL be discussing in the following messages is how to COMPLY WITH THE LAW; in other words, HOW TO DETERMINE WHAT YOU OWE in federal income taxes. That may at first sound like a remarkably boring thing to discuss, but please bear with me; it will be worth it.

According to tax professionals, this is how one complies with the
tax laws:

1) If you can find some section of the tax code specifically saying that some of your income is tax-free, congratulations. (For example, one section says that life insurance proceeds aren't taxable.) Otherwise, all of your income constitutes what is called "gross income," which is income subject to the federal income tax.

2) However, the tax pros know how to then apply various rules to increase your allowable deductions, or to arrange things to make certain income tax-deferred (or sometimes even tax-exempt), or to entitle you to certain tax credits. In these ways, they can lower your taxable income, and lower what you owe in taxes. They then put the numbers together, fill out the forms, and give them to you to sign.

If you read the preceding to your tax preparer, he will most likely agree that that's a fair summary of what it is he does. And tax professionals tend to be pretty good at step #2 (finding deductions, credits, and other
tricks to reduce the bottom line of what you owe). The problem is with step #1. No matter how much you pay them, or how knowledgeable
you assume them to be, the folks you look to for tax advice apply
the law INCORRECTLY. This is not because they're sneaky or
dishonest, but only because they're ignorant--not completely ignorant, but ignorant of one fundamental issue that is CRUCIAL to correctly determining what someone owes in federal income taxes.

Of course, your accountant can assert one thing, and I can assert another, but then it would just be a matter of who you choose to believe. So rather than me telling you how things are, I'm going to let the government's own official law books tell you how things are. (If you decide to give more credence to the so-called "tax experts" than you do to the actual LAW they are supposed to be applying, then you might as well skip the rest of this discussion. But if you're one of those crazy people who believe their own eyes, hang on to your hat.)

If you were to take a look at the official federal income tax regulations from a few decades ago, you would only need to go through a few pages to learn all of the following:

1) When it comes to the federal income tax, neither income exempted
by statute (sections of the tax code) NOR income exempted by
"FUNDAMENTAL LAW" (the Constitution itself), enter into the
computation of one's taxable income.

2) There are several concepts important to determining one's tax liability: the concept of "income" in the broad sense, which means all wealth a person receives (except when he's just getting back what was already his); "gross income," which means all income except for any income that is exempted by statute or OTHERWISE exempt; and "net income," which generally means "gross income" minus allowable deductions.

3) The statutes of the tax code exempt certain types of income, and no
OTHER income is to be excluded from one's taxable "gross income"
EXCEPT for income which is, "under the CONSTITUTION, not taxable by the federal government."

For that last one, the following link shows an actual scan of the regulation saying that:

http://irobyou.info/TaxableIncome_Net/exhibits/1956regs.html

(I hope to have more complete, better-quality scans up soon.)

Okay.

So what? Why is any of that worth mentioning? Because, in the span
of a couple pages, those older regulations admitted THREE TIMES to
a fact that your tax preparer is utterly unaware of. You see, just about every CPA and tax attorney you'll ever meet (except for a handful of wackos who have actually looked at the law) accepts as unquestionable tax doctrine that ALL income is taxable unless a specific section of the tax code says it isn't. (All of the tricks with deductions, deferments, credits, etc., are based on their ASSUMPTION that your income is taxable in the first place.) They believe that all income fits neatly into two categories:

1) Non-taxable: Income exempted by the statutes of the tax code.
2) Taxable: All other income.

But, as you can see for yourself, that is NOT what those older income tax regulations (expressing the government's official interpretation of the tax laws) say. They very clearly delineate THREE categories of income:

1) Non-taxable: Income exempted by the statutes of the tax code.
2) Also non-taxable: Income excluded because of the Constitution itself.
3) Taxable: All other income.

I can't stress this enough: the current tax professionals DO NOT KNOW that that second category exists at all. Soon enough we'll address the question of WHICH income might be excluded from tax because of the Constitution itself, but first it's important to let this sink in: SOME kinds of income are exempt (non-taxable), not because of any particular section of the tax code, but because of the Constitution itself--and your tax preparer DOES NOT KNOW THAT.

Feel free to go back to the link above and review those old regulations. See for yourself where the government's own law books say in plain English (at least as plain as their law books ever get) that there is some income you're supposed to LEAVE OUT of the calculation of your taxable income because such income is, "under the Constitution, not taxable by the Federal Government." Your tax preparer doesn't know that the law books ever said such a thing. YOU now know something about tax law that all those highly-paid tax "experts" DON'T. If you don't believe me, ask them. Pick someone who makes a living preparing tax returns, and ASK him, "What income is exempt from the federal
income tax because of the Constitution itself?" He won't know what
you're talking about, because he doesn't know that ANY income fits
that description.

Just to be clear, I'm NOT saying there is anything unconstitutional about the income tax. Those regulations are just saying that because of the Constitution, certain income isn't subject to the tax, which means it would be a MISTAKE to report such income on a tax return, or to pay taxes on it, just as it would be a MISTAKE to report and pay taxes on life insurance proceeds (which the statutes say are tax-exempt). This isn't a protest of the law; this is the government's own law books telling
you how to properly COMPLY with the law, and to do that you are
SUPPOSED TO leave out of your calculations any income you may
receive which is non-taxable due to the Constitution.

Why don't the tax pros know about this? Which income is it talking about? Why would some income be Constitutionally non-taxable? We'll get to allbof those questions soon, but for today I'm just going to leave
things hanging right there. But before I sign off for the day, there are a few questions I want you to ask yourself. (I'll include these after each message in this series.)

In what I've said above, do you see me encouraging anyone to break the law? Do you see me objecting to the law? Do you see me arguing anything "frivolous"? (No, no, and no.) Lastly, would you consider it okay for the government to try to forcibly stop me from telling you what
I've told you so far, or to punish me for publicly talking about such things? (Me neither.)

Sincerely,

Larken Rose

[Mod Note:  Broken link fixed]




farglebargle -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 7:25:42 AM)

Make sure you have sufficient reserves to carry out a defense in their venue, and cover any potential future liabilities.





mnottertail -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 7:37:53 AM)

The hard hitting information packed long ass and intricately worded copy-post simply says the whale is undoubtably one of the largest mammals alive today.

Nothing intriguing there....  One might consider that he could have said what is exempt from taxation by the constitution (say if you are forced to board soldiers in your house, or the government drops a sattelite on your primary dwelling or whatever) rather than explain the bleeding patently obvious in pedantic fashion.

LOLOL,
Ron




Amaros -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 8:36:52 AM)

The only thing that occurs to me immediately as being income constitutionally excluded from taxation is the usual religious exemption w/respect to the First ammendment, although in fact this ammendment is often selectively ignored, the prohibition of the Native American Church against using Peyote as an example, or Mormon violation of bigamy laws - in these cases, the arguments usually focus on the protection of the rights of the public at large - i.e., religious freedom, like every other freedom, ends at the tip of your nose, theoretically.  Thus, the NAC has been granted the right of regulated use of Peyote on appeal, wheras Mormons are still technically and legally prohibited from practicing bigamy.

The tax exempt status of religion by contrast is something I don't believe has ever been challenged, presumably on the basis that it constitutes regulation of religion.

In fact, there are accusations that the Bush administration has been selectively distributing funds to religious organizations under the "Faith Based" programs, rewarding some and punishing others based on how much faith they evince in George Bush and the republican party - just the sort of "free exercise" violations that the seperation of church and state is designed to avoid.

http://www.mediatransparency.org/issue.php?issueID=3




subfever -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 2:15:07 PM)

Due to the nature of the subject, I really don't fault Mr. Rose for carefully choosing his words.

Also, the topic-at-hand eventually becomes quite in-depth, and has confused many people in the past. He doesn't want blind followers; he wants people to understand the position fluently. Consequently, he has learned to explain his position slowly, and piecemeal. 

I don't have any doubt that his approach will appear dreary and cumbersome to some. Nevertheless, I suspect that most of those who are patient enough to suffer through the process will be glad they did. 

That was my experience, at least.




subfever -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 2:26:02 PM)

Thank you to the anonymous Moderator who fixed the broken link... [:)]




FirmhandKY -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 2:44:38 PM)

Let me see if I get this right:

1.  Most income taxes that are paid, are paid based on the understanding that most income is counted as taxable.

2.  This is incorrect.  Consitutionally, most income can not be taxed (or an income tax is illegal?).

3.  But, since we all make the automatic assumption that it's "taxable", we pay income taxes on everything, and therefore it's not that the Federal government is forcing us to pay taxes on income that is exempt, we do so out of ignorance.

4.  This is a misunderstanding that is intentionally encouraged by the IRS and Federal Government.

Close?

FirmKY




subfever -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 5:59:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Let me see if I get this right:

1.  Most income taxes that are paid, are paid based on the understanding that most income is counted as taxable.

2.  This is incorrect.  Consitutionally, most income can not be taxed (or an income tax is illegal?).

3.  But, since we all make the automatic assumption that it's "taxable", we pay income taxes on everything, and therefore it's not that the Federal government is forcing us to pay taxes on income that is exempt, we do so out of ignorance.

4.  This is a misunderstanding that is intentionally encouraged by the IRS and Federal Government.

Close?

FirmKY



Close. Actually... very close. So far, you're ahead of the pack here.

Federal income tax is not illegal, however.

More to come.




MistressYlwa -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 7:11:36 PM)

Here is a link to "Taxable Income" by Larkin Rose.

http://www.theft-by-deception.com/Taxable%20Income.pdf




Emperor1956 -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 7:20:49 PM)

WOW  Larken Rose?  Now there's a guy who's advice about life YOU really should take.  I don't know what sings to you best -- the fraud convictions, the phony health information, the scamming web sites?  I mean here's a man I really think deserves all of YOUR money and YOUR attention.  Please...follow his tax advice.  I'd like a respite from you for 3-5 years.

E.

From a clearly biased and bigoted source:

Contact: U.S. Justice Department Public Affairs Office,
202-514-2008 or 202-514-1888 (TDD);
Web: http://WWW.USDOJ.GOV

WASHINGTON, Aug. 12 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Justice Department and Internal Revenue Service announced today that a federal jury in Philadelphia convicted Larken Rose, of Hollywood, Pennsylvania of five counts of willful failure to file federal income tax returns.
Larken Rose, 37, was the joint owner of a medical transcription business operated outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. As set forth in the Indictment and according to the evidence introduced at trial, Rose willfully failed to file personal federal income tax returns for calendar years 1998 through 2002, despite earning $500,000 during those years. Rose also filed false and frivolous amended income tax returns for 1994, 1995, and 1996. On those amended returns, he reported no tax due and requested a refund for all income taxes paid in those years. . . .




Real0ne -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 7:47:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Let me see if I get this right:

1.  Most income taxes that are paid, are paid based on the understanding that most income is counted as taxable.

2.  This is incorrect.  Consitutionally, most income can not be taxed (or an income tax is illegal?).

3.  But, since we all make the automatic assumption that it's "taxable", we pay income taxes on everything, and therefore it's not that the Federal government is forcing us to pay taxes on income that is exempt, we do so out of ignorance.

4.  This is a misunderstanding that is intentionally encouraged by the IRS and Federal Government.

Close?

FirmKY



yeh since about 1913 :)




Real0ne -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 7:51:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

WOW  Larken Rose?  Now there's a guy who's advice about life YOU really should take.  I don't know what sings to you best -- the fraud convictions, the phony health information, the scamming web sites?  I mean here's a man I really think deserves all of YOUR money and YOUR attention.  Please...follow his tax advice.  I'd like a respite from you for 3-5 years.

E.

From a clearly biased and bigoted source:

Contact: U.S. Justice Department Public Affairs Office,
202-514-2008 or 202-514-1888 (TDD);
Web: http://WWW.USDOJ.GOV

WASHINGTON, Aug. 12 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Justice Department and Internal Revenue Service announced today that a federal jury in Philadelphia convicted Larken Rose, of Hollywood, Pennsylvania of five counts of willful failure to file federal income tax returns.
Larken Rose, 37, was the joint owner of a medical transcription business operated outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. As set forth in the Indictment and according to the evidence introduced at trial, Rose willfully failed to file personal federal income tax returns for calendar years 1998 through 2002, despite earning $500,000 during those years. Rose also filed false and frivolous amended income tax returns for 1994, 1995, and 1996. On those amended returns, he reported no tax due and requested a refund for all income taxes paid in those years. . . .


well i take this with a grain of salt, have to wait till the case settled.

Hell they burned women and childern in waco for 200 bucks worth of taxes on a fraudulent tax claim.

a good attorney he will most likely get out of it like others have.




mnottertail -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 8:26:02 PM)

I read the whole shitoree and there is nothing unusual exempt from domestic income, same shit you see on normal exclusions, there aint nothing there.


Ron




subfever -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 9:55:11 PM)

quote:

WOW Larken Rose? Now there's a guy who's advice about life YOU really should take. I don't know what sings to you best -- the fraud convictions, the phony health information, the scamming web sites? I mean here's a man I really think deserves all of YOUR money and YOUR attention. Please...follow his tax advice. I'd like a respite from you for 3-5 years.

E.

From a clearly biased and bigoted source:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

WOW  Larken Rose?  Now there's a guy who's advice about life YOU really should take.  I don't know what sings to you best -- the fraud convictions, the phony health information, the scamming web sites?  I mean here's a man I really think deserves all of YOUR money and YOUR attention.  Please...follow his tax advice.  I'd like a respite from you for 3-5 years.

E.

From a clearly biased and bigoted source:

Contact: U.S. Justice Department Public Affairs Office,
202-514-2008 or 202-514-1888 (TDD);
Web: http://WWW.USDOJ.GOV

WASHINGTON, Aug. 12 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Justice Department and Internal Revenue Service announced today that a federal jury in Philadelphia convicted Larken Rose, of Hollywood, Pennsylvania of five counts of willful failure to file federal income tax returns.
Larken Rose, 37, was the joint owner of a medical transcription business operated outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. As set forth in the Indictment and according to the evidence introduced at trial, Rose willfully failed to file personal federal income tax returns for calendar years 1998 through 2002, despite earning $500,000 during those years. Rose also filed false and frivolous amended income tax returns for 1994, 1995, and 1996. On those amended returns, he reported no tax due and requested a refund for all income taxes paid in those years. . . .


Scamming websites? How so? Do you mean just because he once sold VHS videos and later mini CDs which presented his case? If I recall correctly, the CDs were sold at the cost of production and distribution... for no profit.

What phony health information are you referring to?

Yes, it's true that the Feds convicted him for failure to file and daring to bring his case to court. Here is the exact wording from the IRS site:

"Proponent of 861 Argument Sentenced for Failure to Timely File Income Tax Returns:"

"On November 22, 2005, in Philadelphia, PA, Larken Rose was sentenced to 15 months in prison, followed by one year supervised release and fined $10,000. Rose was convicted by jury in August 2005 to five counts of willful failure to file federal income tax returns. According to the evidence introduced at trial, Rose willfully failed to file personal federal income tax returns for calendar years 1998 through 2002, despite earning $500,000 during those years.  At trial, Rose claimed that he failed to file returns and sought refund claims based on his determination that his income received inside the United States was not taxable under Internal Revenue Code Section 861 and regulations. The judge instructed the jury that this Section 861 argument is incorrect as a matter of law." 

What it does not say is that Rose was never allowed to present his case in front of the jury. This can be a problem when doing battle with the powers-that-be.

It must be awful nice to be in a position of power to be able to simply label potentially problematic arguments as "frivolous."

If Rose's argument is wrong and can be proved so in a court of law, a thinking person might ask why the Feds were too scared to let him present his case to the jury.

As far as I'm concerned, it's very easy for the powers-that-be to discredit and smear those who threaten them. And it's a shame that so many people fall for this tactic.

But I agree with you about one thing, the news quote was from a clearly biased and bigoted source!




subfever -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 10:04:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressYlwa

Here is a link to "Taxable Income" by Larkin Rose.

http://www.theft-by-deception.com/Taxable%20Income.pdf


Yes, but unfortunately, very few people will read and absorb that 79-page document!  




sleazy -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/16/2007 10:58:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Scamming websites? How so? Do you mean just because he once sold VHS videos and later mini CDs which presented his case? If I recall correctly, the CDs were sold at the cost of production and distribution... for no profit.

What phony health information are you referring to?

Yes, it's true that the Feds convicted him for failure to file and daring to bring his case to court. Here is the exact wording from the IRS site:

"Proponent of 861 Argument Sentenced for Failure to Timely File Income Tax Returns:"

"On November 22, 2005, in Philadelphia, PA, Larken Rose was sentenced to 15 months in prison, followed by one year supervised release and fined $10,000. Rose was convicted by jury in August 2005 to five counts of willful failure to file federal income tax returns. According to the evidence introduced at trial, Rose willfully failed to file personal federal income tax returns for calendar years 1998 through 2002, despite earning $500,000 during those years.  At trial, Rose claimed that he failed to file returns and sought refund claims based on his determination that his income received inside the United States was not taxable under Internal Revenue Code Section 861 and regulations. The judge instructed the jury that this Section 861 argument is incorrect as a matter of law." 

What it does not say is that Rose was never allowed to present his case in front of the jury. This can be a problem when doing battle with the powers-that-be.

Note the bold, italicised & underlined words. Surely if he was convicted by jury without the chance to state a defence that would be an automatic mistrial?
quote:


It must be awful nice to be in a position of power to be able to simply label potentially problematic arguments as "frivolous."

If Rose's argument is wrong and can be proved so in a court of law, a thinking person might ask why the Feds were too scared to let him present his case to the jury.

So when is the appeal?
quote:


As far as I'm concerned, it's very easy for the powers-that-be to discredit and smear those who threaten them. And it's a shame that so many people fall for this tactic.

But I agree with you about one thing, the news quote was from a clearly biased and bigoted source!



Im not currently resident in the US, nor have I ever paid US income taxes being a UK citizen paid in good old pounds & pence.
But.......
Every damn year I hear these taxes are illegal argument or some variation thereof, burt never once have I heard of anyone actually prove so in a court of law, although regularly the tax collectors do prove that they can legally collect a percentage of income.


Do you not think that being such rich, greedy capitalists that Bush and co would have not taken advantage of such exemptions if they could what with all their ivy league legal buddies and the money to make a court fight worth it?????????

So choice 1) taxes are illegal and the power brokers pay them out of sheer generosity
or......
Choice 2) there is an aroma of male cow solid waste product in here?


If anybody wants to know how to really stop paying taxes legally send check or money order for $79.99 to.......... some guy who knows Barnum was right




subfever -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/17/2007 7:56:11 AM)

In my opinion, it is naive thinking to believe that this country has never incarcerated any political prisoners.  
I guess it's okay for people to believe that the status-quo has been benevolent and based upon pure fact all these years... but then, there was a time when most of the world thought the world was flat too.

Throughout time, people who have challenged conventional thinking have met with fierce opposition. So it doesn't surprise me a whole lot that people are already on the attack even before I've posted the presentation of Mr. Rose's case.

If you're of the mindset that Mr. Rose was convicted in a court of law... so he must automatically be a scam artist, guilty, idiot, etc., or if you're of the belief that we've never incarcerated political prisoners here in this country... then it's probable that your mind won't be open enough to even listen to what he has to say.

But for those who jump on the attack before a presentation is even made, you might want to ask yourself what it is that you're really trying to protect.  

Edited to add: In the beginning, I was skeptical myself. I also admit that there are many people in this world who possess a greater talent for reading and comprehension than I do. It took me a long time to understand Mr. Rose's position, but when it finally sank in, I had one of those "Aha" moments.   




mnottertail -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/17/2007 8:52:22 AM)

what presentation is forthcoming?

I await,
Ron




subfever -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/17/2007 10:27:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

what presentation is forthcoming?

I await,
Ron


Yes, there is more to come. I apologize if I did not make myself clear in post #5 that the presentation would be done piecemeal.

Edited to add: If anyone here is interested in being placed on Mr. Rose's new e-mail list and receiving his messages (which I intend to post here, at least until his case has been presented) at the same time as I do, write me on the other side for the e-mail address you'll need to make the request. As you may know, we are not allowed to post e-mail addresses here.  




subfever -> RE: Interesting Tax Information (1/17/2007 10:30:43 AM)

Sleazy,

I wrote to Mr. Rose regarding your appeals question, as I wanted to use his words, and not mine.

Here is his response:

"An appeal of my conviction has been filed, and one of the issues is the suppression of my video, my report, etc. Unfortunately, those procedures take so long that I've already finished the sentence (for the crime I didn't commit). Nonetheless, we will be following through on the appeal."

I hope this helps.




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