RE: The President's speech last night:

RE: The President's speech last night: (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 12:10:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GentlehandSTL They say, that if we allow them to ‘take the gloves off’ and kill the bad guys, that yes, this plan will work. They said basically the same thing about Vietnam. So Nixon et al went in and carpet bombed it into a lifeless moonscape. We still did not win. At least it made our leaving a lot easier. Sinergy

GentlehandSTL -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 12:31:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy They said basically the same thing about Vietnam. So Nixon et al went in and carpet bombed it into a lifeless moonscape. We still did not win. At least it made our leaving a lot easier. Sinergy We didn't lose Vietnam in the field. Vietnam was lost in the halls ofr Congress...this is all known and verifiable.

juliaoceania -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 2:12:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann quote: ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia as long as rich people keep getting put up there, this country will never make it...let the poor run this country from the House, Senate and Oval offices and see if things get better...but that will never happen as long as the Presidency and Government continue to be for sale to the highest bidder And the moment we put poor people into government, lets see how quickly the cash grabs are made to become rich.... So what I am reading here is that poor people are more dishonest than rich ones. That rich people do not steal... lmao. Now that IS rich!

farglebargle -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 2:58:12 PM)
quote: We didn't lose Vietnam in the field. Vietnam was lost in the halls ofr Congress...this is all known and verifiable. We lost Viet-nam because when you fire up the Army, Navy and Marines, you better make sure you point them at a worthwhile goal. Viet-nam was pointless. Iraq is pointless. That's why they are failures. From the BEGINNING they were destined to fail.

WyrdRich -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 3:24:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle He's not sincere about owning his failure. I'm going to have to disagree with you Fargle. I was watching a man last night who looked like his best friend had sucker-punched him in the gut. I saw it is his remarks after the election as well. I can't help but wonder if he is having a crisis of faith (Bush-haters might want to think through the implications of that before having a knee-jerk celebration that he feels bad. He still has his finger on the button for two more years). Stay tuned folks... This could get lively if he finds a new 'guru.'

meatcleaver -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 3:29:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GentlehandSTL quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy They said basically the same thing about Vietnam. So Nixon et al went in and carpet bombed it into a lifeless moonscape. We still did not win. At least it made our leaving a lot easier. Sinergy We didn't lose Vietnam in the field. Vietnam was lost in the halls of Congress...this is all known and verifiable. You lost. Remember that last helicopter leaving the American embassy? You lost. If you can say the US didn't lose in Vietnam, I could say the Brits didn't lose the war of independence. You aren't there now and Vietnam is free. You lost.

farglebargle -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 3:37:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle He's not sincere about owning his failure. I'm going to have to disagree with you Fargle. I was watching a man last night who looked like his best friend had sucker-punched him in the gut. I saw it is his remarks after the election as well. No doubt. He looked like shit, and I totally got a sincere feeling that HE was going through some tough shit. AND SO HE SHOULD. He's killing people by the thousands. He SHOULD have a rough time. These are the results of his choices. Karma can be a real bitch sometimes. Maybe if he actually followed Jesus he wouldn't be where he is now? An example to those who just use Jesus as part of their marketing plan?

mnottertail -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 3:42:15 PM)
The history books will one day teach us that George Walker Bushs' greatest accomplishment was choking on a fuckin' pretzel and his greatest failure was not succumbing to the same. McMillan Press

WyrdRich -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 3:44:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You aren't there now and Vietnam is free. You lost. (This is more generally directed MC, you were just very quotable) And how many innocent people died in the region after our departure? A fine thing to celebrate. But hey, let's go ahead and pull out of Iraq. Maybe it will work out better this time...

mnottertail -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 3:51:24 PM)
less than died during our dust up there.

meatcleaver -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 3:51:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You aren't there now and Vietnam is free. You lost. (This is more generally directed MC, you were just very quotable) And how many innocent people died in the region after our departure? A fine thing to celebrate. But hey, let's go ahead and pull out of Iraq. Maybe it will work out better this time... How many innocent people died when you were there? Pol Pot was a result of US actions, the carpet bombing of Cambodia gave him his chance, that was down to the US being there. As for Iraq, well there aren't many Iraqis giving the US credit for improving their lives, probably because the US hasn't and most believe the US is there for their oil anyway. I don't even know why we are there but then there is nothing about Blair I understand, he's just a turd with a nervous system like Bush except he can articulate a sentence.

farglebargle -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 4:04:38 PM)
quote: But hey, let's go ahead and pull out of Iraq. Maybe it will work out better this time... Given the continued failure in Iraq for a longer period than our combat in World War II, why would you think the people who have failed, in even the period PRIOR to the war, to at this late date "Get It"? Trump would have fired all of them in the first episode of the season, why should ANYONE tolerate the inability to deliver?

farglebargle -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 4:06:19 PM)
quote: As for Iraq, well there aren't many Iraqis giving the US credit for improving their lives, I suspect that anyone WITH the resources to evacuate, already has left Iraq. Sorta like New Orleans.

WyrdRich -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 4:20:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Given the continued failure in Iraq for a longer period than our combat in World War II ... That is just a bad analogy, Fargle. Pick a single battle for some shithole island in the Pacific and compare casualties. Show me assaults on civilian morale that compare to Dresden, prior to the ground invasion.

farglebargle -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 4:37:35 PM)
Please don't miss my central point. If we had 3 years of failure in ONE THEATER during World War II, you'd be driving a German or Japanese car right now! Ok, that's a bad example. What would the outcome of 3 years of failure in a single theater have been in WWII?

WyrdRich -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 5:38:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle What would the outcome of 3 years of failure in a single theater have been in WWII? Enemy troops on our mainland would be my guess. It's still pretty pointless to compare the timeline of a war fought to win and this muddled mess on our hands now. (And yes, that was a bad example. Not only are there two Japanese cars out front, I spent a few years defending the Japanese economic boom of the 80's)

Zensee -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 5:40:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle What would the outcome of 3 years of failure in a single theater have been in WWII? Lots of gravy for the Military Industrial Complex? Decisive wars are good for a boost but sustained consumption of war materials is where the real money is. That along with R&D and contracting fraud.

farglebargle -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 5:46:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle What would the outcome of 3 years of failure in a single theater have been in WWII? Enemy troops on our mainland would be my guess. It's still pretty pointless to compare the timeline of a war fought to win and this muddled mess on our hands now. (And yes, that was a bad example. Not only are there two Japanese cars out front, I spent a few years defending the Japanese economic boom of the 80's) I drive a Passat Wagen.

michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 5:48:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle He's not sincere about owning his failure. I'm going to have to disagree with you Fargle. I was watching a man last night who looked like his best friend had sucker-punched him in the gut. I saw it is his remarks after the election as well. I can't help but wonder if he is having a crisis of faith (Bush-haters might want to think through the implications of that before having a knee-jerk celebration that he feels bad. He still has his finger on the button for two more years). Stay tuned folks... This could get lively if he finds a new 'guru.' Presidents make great actors...they know what strings to pull and how to play the public...from what i hear, this guy should get an Oscar, Emmy AND Grammy

Sinergy -> RE: The President's speech last night: (1/11/2007 5:52:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GentlehandSTL quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy They said basically the same thing about Vietnam. So Nixon et al went in and carpet bombed it into a lifeless moonscape. We still did not win. At least it made our leaving a lot easier. Sinergy We didn't lose Vietnam in the field. Vietnam was lost in the halls ofr Congress...this is all known and verifiable. Hrm. I must have missed that when I studied that war as the subject of my degree. Vietnam was lost because we went in to a country with a heavily armed indigenous population, and relied on our technological superiority to vanquish an opposition who did not want us there. Did not work in Vietnam. Doesnt seem to be working in Iraq. The only way we could have actually won the Vietnam war would have involved killing everybody in that country. However, for the sake of argument, since it is known and verifiable, I would be fascinated to read any sources you have. Sinergy

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