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Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 6:58:03 PM

JustUsTwo

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We haven't noticed this topic but bear with us if we going over covered ground, we’re new here.

Today we were pondering the nature of abusive vanilla relationships and wondering to what degree they may be a result of misdirected/repressed dominant and submissive dynamics.

For example what’s with great women who date assholes – what is it they’re looking for that’s not being met by ‘nice’ guys?

Do women who are mistreated by a partner sadly find that more socially acceptable than coming out and saying that they want to feel powerless, especially overpowered sexually, but that they’d prefer to do that with someone who also loves them and is responsible etc?

Conversely, does it follow that a repressed dominant man would only date women he despises because he can’t imagine being loved by a woman he’d respect and still do the things he wants to do to her?

Bottom line here: do you notice vanilla relationships around you (or have you been in one) that suck because those involved won’t/can’t face the truth of their D/s nature?

He & She
__________________________
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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 7:04:22 PM

bandit25

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Oh, I don't know...maybe some are. But maybe it's just a case of the wrong people getting together.

(in reply to JustUsTwo)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 7:08:53 PM

AquaticSub

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No. But I have seen women try to be submissive who weren't. The bottom line when it comes to abuse, for me, is that it's wrong and somebody needs anger management and quite possibly jail time. I really don't care why. Most abuse has little, if anything, to do with BDSM and I feel it disgraces what we do consentually to compare the two.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to JustUsTwo)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 7:23:35 PM

JustUsTwo

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quote:

I feel it disgraces what we do consentually to compare the two

We agree, but we weren’t comparing the two. We’re just wondering if some people get stuck in abuse because they don’t understand that what they want is NOT abuse but loving exchange in the form of D/s.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 7:26:48 PM

cjenny

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Yes. I know of one long term marriage that was entered into because she needed a Dom so desperately she told herself that brutality could maybe possibly hopefully turned into Dominance.

(in reply to JustUsTwo)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 7:27:04 PM

MasterFireMaam

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From: Charleston, WV
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The mistake you are making (ok, one of them) in my opinion is that you are assuming women in abusive relationships are all hidden submissives. Not true. Some are just emotionally and/or psychologically impared or damaged. Often, these women don't know that they deserve better...or if they do, they don't know how to get out.

Abuse and Ds are different and aren't really comparable. It's like comparing a killer and a hunter. Sure, you can say the things are all dead in the end...but...

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to JustUsTwo)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 7:31:54 PM

bandit25

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Good point MasterFireMaam. Wish I had said it!

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 7:32:54 PM

toservez

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Abusers and people who put up with abuse have in some sort of combination learned behavior and low self esteem. The abuser vent in a dominant way and the enablers may take it in a submissive way.

This really does not involve a D/s nature that is not getting expressed in my opinion. An abuser is venting at the unjust world, personal/chemical problems or mental issues and not because they enjoy control, positive reactions from their loved one or any other thing a dominant in the life gets. Same goes for the victim; they are not putting up with it to make their abuser happy and therefore take some pleasure from the abuse but are usually there because their fear and low self esteem prevent them from doing something different.

Self esteem issues are around in all areas of the population including this life and therefore there are abusers that are in this life as well and I am not talking about people who screw up with a toy.

Being dominant or submissive is just a natural trait. We in the life are more toward the end of the spectrum on both sides while the majority of the population is around the center.

To flip the question a little bit, I would be stunned if a dominant answered this thread thinking without this life they would be an abuser and a submissive person who has been a victim of abuse tell you that there were similar feelings to that and D/s.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to AquaticSub)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 7:44:40 PM

JustUsTwo

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Okay, we’re learning how to post here – we might have been less declarative in our statements, spoken for example of ‘some’ women in ‘some’ relationships.

We are here because D/s works for us, and we embrace it.

We just see that D/s could be an unacknowledged component in some relationships we see around us, relationships that are not necessarily abusive but mostly seem deeply unsatisfying.

We agree that someone who truly owns this for themselves could not become an abuser or a victim. That’s kind of our point – we’re talking about people who don’t own this, who may not be out to themselves. To wit, our condolences to cjenny’s friend.

(in reply to toservez)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 8:19:50 PM

innatedesire

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Having worked with victims of domestic abuse for 13+ years i personally never encountered one person who said or felt that they were in the abusive relationship becase they were submissive and trying to satisfy that part of themselves. What i did hear was a lot about drug issues, alcohol, issues, financial issues, staying for the kids, just do not know another way to live, fear, death threats, financial dependence.....you name it there are a million reasons, but submission was never one that i encountered. It works for both genders, men just do not report it as often but that is another subject.

And on the flip side when i went into law enforcement i never encountered a suspect that stated he was just trying to express his Domliness............

And yes I always asked both parties a miilion questions including if any of their dynamics include D/s M/s and or BDSM as it is always best to cover ALL bases so that you can make the best decision based on what information you have. As we all know their is his side her side and then there is the truth and that is rare to get the latter.

That is my 2 cents.......

(in reply to JustUsTwo)

Post #: 10

RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 8:47:42 PM

MasterFireMaam

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Let me back up and say, welcome to the boards. We enjoy open discussion. I'm not totally trying to slam you...I just don't agree with what you're implying. Don't let it run you off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustUsTwo

We just see that D/s could be an unacknowledged component in some relationships we see around us, relationships that are not necessarily abusive but mostly seem deeply unsatisfying.

I don't think the lack of knowledge about Ds is the issue. People are in unfulfilling relationships of ANY dynamic, vanilla or otherwise, when:
1) They don't communicate their needs or boundaries properly.
OR
2) They don't enforce their boundaries
OR
3) They are willing to sell themselves (meaning to continue to have their needs and boundaries unmet) in order to get something, such as a place to live, some (sometimes any) kind of attention, financial security, etc. etc.
OR
4) A combination of the above.

quote:

We agree that someone who truly owns this for themselves could not become an abuser or a victim.

Not true. The Ds/Ms lifestyle is not a magic pill...abusers and victims appear EVERYWHERE is society. We are not seperate from society as a whole, we are a subset of it. Hence, we have to deal with the same shit that everyone else has to deal with, abusers and victims alike.

quote:

That’s kind of our point – we’re talking about people who don’t own this, who may not be out to themselves. To wit, our condolences to cjenny’s friend.

What I hear you trying to say is: If only some people would realize their proper places inside their relationship, their lives would be so much better!

I disagree. A person who abuses is not likely to all-of-a-sudden look at thier partner and go, "Oh! Wow! I'm not abusive, I'm kinky! I do hearby swear to love you, cherish you and respect your limits and safewords. I promise to only hit you with your consent and I won't do it in a manner that doesn't harm you physically, emotionally and psychologically. What an ass I've been." That is SO unlikely to happen. Now, can they get there with therapy? Possibly...but again, this lifestyle, and knowledge thereof, isn't a magic pill that makes everything better. Telling someone about soap doesn't mean they'll take a bath every day.

What I don't particularly like about all this is that, once again, we are being compared to abusive relationships. We are NOT an abusive lifestyle and I find it insulting that I'm compared to an abuser and that my girl is compared to a victim. We are happy, healthy adults who have decided to undergo a transfer of authority inside a structured relationship.

I also think that you're implying that abused women are really pitiful little submissives. Not all abusers are dominant and certainly not all victims are submissive, either in role or in personality. They are simply unhealthy emotionally and psychogically. They can be helped, if they truly wish it. Being a victim is totally different than being a submissive. Being abused is totally different than consenting to humiliation that turns you on. Killing is different than hunting...rape is different than sex.

Of course, these are all my own soap-box words.

*steps down*

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to JustUsTwo)

Post #: 11

RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 8:51:58 PM

MzMia

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I have encountered a few people that were abused as children and were seeking something similar
in the BDSM world. I politely declined to become involved with them.
I am sure there are some people who become involved for the "wrong" reasons and have
psychological issues that I am sure surface eventually.
It pays to know someone WELL before becoming involved with them.
IMHO

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to JustUsTwo)

Post #: 12

RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 8:54:57 PM

NaiveTempest

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From: North Carolina
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I think you made a mistake using the word abuse or abusive, lol. But I will attempt to keep an open mind about what it is I think you truly meant. I do think that in an "unhappy" relationship or some relationships where a seemingly sweet, attractive girl always goes for the "bad" boys and not the "good" ones (NOT an abusive relationship, just a woman that goes for the bad boy type) hidden/unknown BDSM leanings could be a factor for that person. Is it always? I don't know, but I won't discount it. Having been the youngest of my many cousins I've seen all types of relationships, and I don't think that those bad (some people on the outside might have even called them abusive; depends on your definition. Just because two people are yelling there lungs out at each other doesn't mean the relationship is abusive to me, but a passerby might think it or at least wonder) relationships were always about self-esteem, drugs, mental isssues or anything else other than piss poor choices. But that's just MY two cents.
By the by, I wrote from a female perspective but I'm sure it could apply to males as well.

(in reply to JustUsTwo)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 10:05:05 PM

cjenny

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Ah well as I muddled through my first post I didn't say what I ought to have. I married 20 years ago, I know I was submissive because I had already been with a few men that were Doms. I also had enough blind youth in my to convince the man I was marrying really had Dom potential. He wasn't Dominant but domineering. I tried for years & I mean years to teach/hope/try every thing in the world. The end result is that he was miserable and hostile towards me. He tried to change her, putting her in charge of the entire marriage from bills to sex. That pressure made her miserable & depresses.
There was no why he could change and quite rightfully he took it out on me because it was MY need forcing the situation.
I stayed in the marriage where things were not good in a not not good way because dammit I just kept hoping. Until I just went inside of myself. That is where I learned one of the most brutal yet important things about myself.
A person can control how they are seen but a person can not contol who their core identity is. I recommend avoiding that lesson if you can lol.
The only thing that got me out was the (drum roll please) was the dreaded online Dom who lived on the other side of the USA. Six years this Man invested in me with daily calls, quarterly visits etc. Until I was safe enough to move out of the house while filing for divorce.
The vanilla marriage.. it caused one man to try and force himself in a wrong mold to please his wife. His wife couldn't respect the lack of real strength obscured by abuse. His needs went unmet because she couldnt do it. Her needs where hidden. She was hurt because he had no other outlet and she felt it was her fault.
Neither one came out of it emotionally healthy after 20 years.

I apologise for mixing tenses & I think most of the grammar fell to the floor. This was hard to write and it is way way past my normal bed time!

I said too much. Sorry. LOL if its really awful I will pull it in the morning.

yeah it is my opinion.

(in reply to NaiveTempest)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 10:11:52 PM

MzMia

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You are fine jenny,
thanks for sharing.
Hell, its Saturday night....

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to cjenny)

Post #: 15

RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 10:13:20 PM

cjenny

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Thankyou MzMia

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 10:29:04 PM

domiguy

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Since joining this site I can honestly say that I have probably spoke/written to more women who are spiritually/psychologically damaged than I would have met in the "real world"(percentage wise). I think that it is niave to suggest that all people who seek out this "lifestyle" do so out of a introspective healthy self analysis.

Why women date "assholes" or men date women they don't "respect" probably has much more to do with self esteem issues rather than where you "fit" within your sexual dom/sub relationship. *****Notice that I put the word "sexual relationship" in this because many folks out here confuse personal relationships to cyber,non interactive or other bullshit that pertains to fantasy rather than actual human interaction.

If it is healthy, well thought out, and not dependent on external forces that have brought you to this point then proceed...with caution! For everyone else there is a therapist dying to take your hard earned money....either way good luck in your search.

Naive tempest I like cumming after you.

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

(in reply to NaiveTempest)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 10:47:03 PM

NaiveTempest

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From: North Carolina
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LMAO okay, you got me. For sure there are a lot of, hmmmm, I'll use the term "confused" people out there that probably get BDSM and what they really need (therapy or someone to talk to) mixed up.

(in reply to domiguy)

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/6/2007 10:50:34 PM

Tikkiee

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quote:

Today we were pondering the nature of abusive vanilla relationships and wondering to what degree they may be a result of misdirected/repressed dominant and submissive dynamics.

I am wondering how you ever came to the conclusion that an abusive relationship is in any way connected to a D/s or M/s dynamic.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

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RE: Misdirected D/s among vanillas? - 1/7/2007 3:13:01 AM

bandit25

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domiguy, I think you've hit the nail on the head so to speak. I agree that it speaks more to self esteem and (maybe) even self worth issues that where you fit.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 20

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