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So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler truel... - 12/31/2006 1:49:38 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler truely repented for their actions in a state of inner reflection and awareness would they have absolution?

Is repent and absolution the human perception and interpretation of how things should be?

I say perception and interpretation as through out time spokesmen of all religions have passed on holy scripture, gospels, and teachings in many languages and have been translated from one language to another.

Without invoking the notion of life being meaningless is it possible that such mass murders would not be forgiven by their maker?

Is it possible that such mass murders would be forgiven by their maker?

Ross

repent

Main Entry: 1re·pent
Pronunciation: ri-'pent
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French repentir, from Medieval Latin repoenitEre, from Latin re- + Late Latin poenitEre
to feel regret, alteration of Latin paenitEre -- more at PENITENT
intransitive verb
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind
transitive verb
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
- re·pent·er noun

forgiveforgiving

Main Entry: for·give
Pronunciation: f&r-'giv, for-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): for·gave /-'gAv/; for·giv·en /-'gi-v&n/; -giv·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English forgifan, from for- + gifan to give
transitive verb
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a
debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON <forgive one's enemies>
intransitive verb : to grant forgiveness
synonym see EXCUSE
- for·giv·able /-'gi-v&-b&l/ adjective
- for·giv·ably /-blE/ adverb
- for·giv·er noun

absolution

Main Entry: ab·so·lu·tion
Pronunciation: "ab-s&-'lü-sh&n
Function: noun
: the act of absolving; specifically : a remission of sins pronounced by a priest (as in the sacrament of reconciliation)

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/

< Message edited by SirDiscipliner69 -- 12/31/2006 1:54:36 AM >

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 1:51:31 AM

Lordandmaster

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I'm just wondering why it's OK to copy from dictionaries if it's not OK to copy from anything else.

Especially since you didn't even indicate which dictionary you copied from.

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 1:53:20 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/

It was to try and clarify the terminology used to continue the discussion.

Thanks

Ross

< Message edited by SirDiscipliner69 -- 12/31/2006 1:58:47 AM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 2:01:18 AM

MasDom

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I think in death we can reborn.
If only to know what truth we never knew.
As if reaching the end of a long journey only to find the
real end of a question deep inside.

I say if you find that answer then why not...
Sure it makes me cringe inside.

But eternity never being able to be forgiven?
And what happens if you can change then.
Would it be fair to rot in hell forever?

Thats what I wounder...
Whatever god scrapes up my ass.
I hope their forgiving.

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 5:02:21 AM

sharainks

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If you believe the Bible then absolution is for all who repent. If you believe in preordination, and some do, the mass murderer was born with God knowing he would murder and that he would repent.

(in reply to MasDom)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 5:51:20 AM

Termyn8or

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You cannot put Hussein and Hitler in the same book.

Hussein was born to semi-royalty and installed in Iraq, he was helped mainly because Carter wouldn't send the Shah of Iran back for his just deserts, torture. Against the Iatollah, the US helped Iraq greatly, and sucked down the oil as well. Hussein was their puppet, and when the strings broke it was time for him to go down. There is a good chance the war would've not happened until a yerar or so later had not Hussein indicated a desire to switch to Euros.

Now anyone who has read even a small part of Mein Kompf knows that Hitler really truly believed he was doing the right thing. Not that he was necessarily right, but Hitler had a great love for Germany and there is alot of mis-history, especially when it comes to his motives.

Hussein was not such a Man, his thing was greed. He planned to go with the Euro but had billions in LIQUID, REAL CASH, currency. They saw what he was about to do. Years of sanctions and fucking with him, he was going to switch to Euros and flood the currency masrket with dollars, dealing a serious blow to our economy.

They saw it coming and that is why the war happened when it happened. If not for that it could've waited a bit. Possibly a year.

So the monster Hussein was really created by our tax dollars back in the 80s. Can't say that about Hitler. Hitler died believing he was a good Christian, and I am not the one to judge that. Hussein, Bush, Cheney, Rummy all of them know damn well what they are. They are the modern Pharises, because if they believed in any afterlife they would not do what they do.

The question you raise is EXACTLY why I am not a Christian. I will go to hell, but I want to see people there that really belong there, most of the politicians etc.People in positions of power are the EXACT reason that I reject universal forgiveness completely and unequivocably.

Bullshit, you mean Jeffrey Daumer can be in heaven sitting next to my Grandmother ? I reject that. There is no argument to get me to believe that.

Enough monotribe, in short, the answer is no, you sinned you will pay, and I hope I get a chance to see it. I want to see all the Buxh family with oil pipes up their asses, and starving to death with billions of dollars right in front of them. Just nobody selling what they need.

They ask for water, give them weed, they ask for food give them the seeds. Oil companies are what made weed illegal, so it would be fitting. Like Infernoland, an adaptation of Dante's Inferno. Where politicians have their ass holes hooked up tio their mouth. Where the writer asks, what of them, they were diametrically opposed. The guide says "But they both thought they were wrong". In other words they did what they did for the lobbyists, or should I say bribery experts.

If I am right, we better be good.

T

(in reply to sharainks)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 6:19:30 AM

eyesopened

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wow... religion and politics in one neat bundle! my personal belief is this.... Jesus said it is not the will of God for any to be lost. i don't think it's my place to figure out how God plans to accomplish this and i don't believe that even free will supercedes God's will, just changes the course for arriving at the destination. Now, i also believe in reincarnation, not as a pre-requisite to salvation but i don't believe a good god would require we figure this all out in one short lifetime. Does this mean that evil people never get punished? i believe they do get punished according to their evil but eternity seems like such a long time to be punished and if it's not the will of God that any be lost then perhaps there's an opportunity for forgiveness. At least, i want there to be.

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 7:29:25 AM

sub4hire

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How would you know if he truly repented? Prisoners play that game daily while in prison. Then get out and oh well...no more repenting.

Also, how would we know if he would be forgiven...none of us are god. At least I haven't seen anyone claim such a thing here. Seen a lot but not that yet.

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 7:38:22 AM

SlaveAkasha

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I don't think any one of us has the power to say what will happen to someone after they die. I have always been taught, if you ask to be forgiven, and mean it in your heart..you are. It doesn't say if you are this person, or aren't that person. To God, one sin is not greater, nor less than another. A lie, is like murder...it's not distinguished based on which is the "badder" sin.

How do we know who has what intentions? Yes, Hitler might have had good ones, but maybe Bush does also..most people who do something, actually believe that what they are doing is the "correct" thing to do. I know that if I go to do something, my intentions are usually good, but that doesn't mean the act is right in itself.

I learned a long time ago, that it's not my place to judge anyone for anything. I know that I do wrong, and though it might be different than someone elses "wrong"..I still did it. I will leave the judging up to the only One that knows my heart and everyone elses and just worry about the other things I can find to stress out about on earth.

Kasha

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(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 7:44:57 AM

sharainks

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I don't think any religion sets up the individual to decide who is truly repenting and who isn't. Thats the sole knowledge of God.

In my state there is a preacher who also protests at gay's funerals, and has now taken up protesting at the funerals of our dead soldiers. He also wanted to protest at the funerals of the Amish girls who were killed in their school. I don't remember if he got there to do it or not. According to him these deaths are a result of God's anger with us about what our country has become. I somehow doubt he has a pipeline to knowing God's will.

Now, he has what an ex pastor of mine once deemed "fire insurance" he won't burn in hell. However the Bible also indicates that we reap what we sow to some extent in heaven. "Each according to their deeds."

(in reply to sub4hire)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 7:56:03 AM

KatyLied

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quote:

To God, one sin is not greater, nor less than another.

Catholics divide their sins. Mortal vs. venial. They believe there are conditions to be met regarding what defines a mortal sin.

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 9:40:35 AM

SlaveAkasha

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To Catholics, yes..but I am not Catholic, so I don't see it that way. This is the way I have been taught while studying various faiths throughout the years.

I think it's hard for someone to think that a "little" sin is as bad as a "big" sin, so they break it up and say that this one isn't as bad as that one. Where is the line then? What makes one worse or not worse than another? Just because something might seem "small" to us (a lie), doesn't mean we know what can snowball from that lie to hurt someone else in a "big" way.

We only know what our "sin" did in a direct way, we have no way to know what our "sin" did when it got beyond our immediate sight.

To me, saying that one is not as bad as another, is only a way for us to put ourselves on a higher pedestal than someone else. I didn't do (insert action here), I did (smaller action here) therefore, I am not as bad as they are. It's much easier to think our flaws aren't as bad, when we point out "bigger" ones in someone else.

Kasha

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 9:47:33 AM

KatyLied

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I'm not religious. I think the test of goodness lies in how people treat others. What is a big sin to one person or to god (if there is a god), may not be a big sin to another person. I'm suspect of people who need written rules or conditions in order to be "good" (regardless of their religion).

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 10:01:04 AM

SlaveAkasha

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In some aspects I do agree with you. We all do (or should have) a basic moral code built into us. I just try to treat others how I would want to be treated, and things seem to work out.

Kasha

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Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
~ Tank Girl

www.peta.org
www.goveg.com

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 14

RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 10:30:11 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

How would you know if he truly repented? Prisoners play that game daily while in prison. Then get out and oh well...no more repenting.

Also, how would we know if he would be forgiven...none of us are god. At least I haven't seen anyone claim such a thing here. Seen a lot but not that yet.

That's true.
Remember when Clinton got caught in the Monica thing?
He had his "Spiritual Advisors" around him for what, one week?
And one of them was "The Reverand" Jesse Jackson.
No-one seems to know which church he's "The Reverand" of.
Clinton's Presidency ended in disgrace and Impeachment by the Congress but we've never again heard any repentance from him.
I think he's just "sorry" that he got caught.

(in reply to sub4hire)

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 10:42:34 AM

missturbation

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So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler truely repented for their actions in a state of inner reflection and awareness would they have absolution?

I think whether they would or wouldn't is probably a redundant topic considering Saddam Hussein died cursing the USA and the Uk (according to news reports). This would indicate to me he really wasnt looking for absolution.

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RE: So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler t... - 12/31/2006 1:17:27 PM

NeedToUseYou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

So if a mass murder like Saddam Hussein or Hitler truely repented for their actions in a state of inner reflection and awareness would they have absolution?

I think whether they would or wouldn't is probably a redundant topic considering Saddam Hussein died cursing the USA and the Uk (according to news reports). This would indicate to me he really wasnt looking for absolution.

That is pretty much my view on it as well, I doubt types like hitler or hussein regret what they did, becuase in their minds they were doing good. It's always been my ascertion that evil thinks it is good. Almost everyone when asked will say they are good and others just don't understand why x and y need to be done. Rarely are major astrocities commited in the name of the devil, or evil. Generally it's done in the name of good. And I honestly believe the people committing the action believe they are good.

So, I think Hussein believed he will be judged as good by God, and Hitler more than likely believed the same way.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 17

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