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Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 5:27:57 PM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		I would like to explore the subject of Domination and submission to find the views on whether there are gender issues attached and how much nature and nurture plays a part?

  • Male hunter/gatherer? Since the time of cavemen, men have been assumed to be the sex that goes out and gets while women stay at home and sweep the cave out.
  • Social conditioning? Society has always (until recently) seen women as the fairer sex and that it is natural for the man to provide for her.
  • Do men Dom because it seems to be have been written in some unknown rulebook that this is the way it should be? Do women submit because they feel as though they should to the physical and mental strength of the naturally more aggressive human sex?
  • On the flip side, do women Domme and men submit as a rebellious and subconscious fight against a society that has for all our history told us the way it should be?

I know, I know...bra burners, forced fem sissy maids and everyone else with half an opinion are at this very moment tracking me down by my IP number to stuff a dildo up my arse to make me pay for stating such derogatory points! Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone! These are the standard thoughts and theories that fly around. I simply want lay the nasty cards on the table to see what everyone thinks.

Simply, are there more Dom/mes and/or subs of one sex than another? Is being Dominant or submissive and pre-destined genetic wiring of the brain, are we influenced by social conditioning or do we just make it up as we go along?

What are you???

_____________________________

"A taboo is a strong social prohibition relating to any area of human activity or social custom declared as sacred and forbidden; breaking of the taboo is usually considered objectionable or abhorrent by society"......Woohoo!!!
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RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 5:37:41 PM   
greasemonkey


Posts: 1
Joined: 11/14/2006
Status: offline 		well, here's a good one.  i'm a genderqueer, can identify as either a boy or a girl (depending on my mood and who i'm with).  i've only subbed to two women so far but i'm in negotiations to sub to both men and women at the moment.  am i sub because i was raised female?  why do i mostly want to sub to another female?  when i sub to a woman i prefer to be a boy, and when i sub to a man i feel more flexible (although i'd like to experience both), and i have no explanation for that either.

as a genderqueer i spend a lot of time thinking about how gender (and having to choose between two boxes, neither of which fit me very well) affects my interactions with the world and my sense of myself.  as a newbie i'm having to think about how bdsm affects my sense of myself as well.  i'm actually glad you asked the questions because they give me the prod i need to put the two together.  and obviously, i don't have any answers, only more questions.

(in reply to PiercedDaz)
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RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 5:43:41 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am a naturally dominant female who has never felt that she needed to be provided for. I am very independent and capable of making my own decisions. I worked my way through college and I own my own business.

Therefore I can only speak for myself in saying, YES there are females out there that are not submissive by personality/nature. I believe a big part of that it is conditioning, which luckily I had a Father who believes that a woman can be anything she wants to be, just as a man can.

I don't do this to "rebel" I do this because it is WHO I am. I do not believe either sex is superior to the other we are all equals in one way or another.

My sub male is very dominant to everyone but Me. He was in fact a gorean Master at one time, he retired from that when he realised it was not who he truly was. He himself has reflected upon it and come to the conclusion that alot of men who claim to be dominant are not truly so but have been conditioned to be so. Otherwise they are thought of as weak, which nothing could be further from the truth. The sub males that I know are very strong, intelligent men who can hold their own against another man any day.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to PiercedDaz)
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RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 5:44:11 PM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		greasemonkey...I really hope that you find some answers here. This for me is the most important thing about something like Collarme forums, a way for an entire international online community to submit ideas that go towards empowering the individual.

And hey - you think you are confused? Get this -

I know a bisexual switch polar bear who's sister is a Domme with an adult baby husband and who's Mum is a sadistic masochistic slave!!!

_____________________________

"A taboo is a strong social prohibition relating to any area of human activity or social custom declared as sacred and forbidden; breaking of the taboo is usually considered objectionable or abhorrent by society"......Woohoo!!!

(in reply to greasemonkey)
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RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 5:44:58 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz

I would like to explore the subject of Domination and submission to find the views on whether there are gender issues attached and how much nature and nurture plays a part?

  • Male hunter/gatherer? Since the time of cavemen, men have been assumed to be the sex that goes out and gets while women stay at home and sweep the cave out.


The stereotype was male hunters and female gatherers, darling.... in fact it was assumed also that early agriculture was a product of gathering, thus women's work. These are just assumptions though made primarily many decades past -- current archaeology has a more varied view of prehistory.

quote:


  • Social conditioning? Society has always (until recently) seen women as the fairer sex and that it is natural for the man to provide for her.


    • Really more of a middle-class Victorian model -- even in wealthy families where men might have more political roles the income was from combined family resources, thus women's dowries.

    As for fairer -- ha! Wow, both Greeks and Romans (at least) considered women to be the more uncivilized of the two sexes, more easily swayed into their bestial natures thus all the extra rules about how they should behave and a fear of them being in the public.

    quote:


  • Do men Dom because it seems to be have been written in some unknown rulebook that this is the way it should be? Do women submit because they feel as though they should to the physical and mental strength of the naturally more aggressive human sex?


    • Men are trained to be more public for a variety of reasons but women might also be trained to be the dominant person back home at the haven from the rest of the world. Depends on your culture and time period.

    quote:


  • On the flip side, do women Domme and men submit as a rebellious and subconscious fight against a society that has for all our history told us the way it should be?


    • Not anyone that I've ever met.

    They do it for the same reasons you do -- it feels natural or sexy to them.

    quote:


    I know, I know...bra burners, forced fem sissy maids and everyone else with half an opinion are at this very moment tracking me down by my IP number to stuff a dildo up my arse to make me pay for stating such derogatory points! Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone! These are the standard thoughts and theories that fly around. I simply want lay the nasty cards on the table to see what everyone thinks.

    Simply, are there more Dom/mes and/or subs of one sex than another? Is being Dominant or submissive and pre-destined genetic wiring of the brain, are we influenced by social conditioning or do we just make it up as we go along?

    What are you???


    Unless someone has invested a lot of money and expertise into some big research I don't know about how could these questions be answered in any reliable way?

    (last time I checked the Kinsey isn't doing one on this yet and they are focused on redoing the ones from the late 1950s early 1960s again -- I go to the university where they are and am a "member" of their supporters who donate time and money)

    Nature versus nurture huh?

    Well, if it were nurture alone then I wouldn't be what I am by any means. Nope, this is the natural me -- I'm tend to be the dominant person in any meatlife group unless I work at not being that. That works gets tiring after awhile.

    _____________________________

    Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

    TammyJo

    Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

    And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

    (in reply to PiercedDaz)
    Profile   Post #: 5
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 5:50:48 PM   
    Lady Alaria


    Posts: 160
    Joined: 10/16/2006
    Status: offline     		I tend to think there are more 'out' female subs than male subs because it's more socially acceptable.

    I tend to think that there are more 'out' male Doms than female Dommes for a variety of reasons, including: we're taught that we are supposed to submit/put other's needs first(ingrained in culture), We tend not to, as often, be the ones to lead a relationship into kink(see below), and Dommes who are out tend to be swarmed by emotionally twisted subs who have deep repression and shame issues about the fact that their desires and tendencies are unacceptable to society. Men often have it beaten into their heads(quite literally) that showing weakness is shameful and unacceptable.

    Finally, I tend to think there are more Men in the scene in general than women because for some reason i can't figure out, Men in our society seem more focused on sex(kinky or otherwise) and women on relationships. And BDSM seems to translate to kinky sex in a lot of people's minds.

    (in reply to greasemonkey)
    Profile   Post #: 6
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 6:18:42 PM   
    petdave


    Posts: 2479
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz
    • On the flip side, do women Domme and men submit as a rebellious and subconscious fight against a society that has for all our history told us the way it should be
    As a wise man once said:
    "I'm not anti-society, society's anti-me
    I'm not anti-religion, religion is anti-me
    I'm not anti-tradition, tradition is anti-me
    I'm not anti-anything, i just wanna be free"

    Why do you assume rebellion before aberration?

    quote:


    I know, I know...bra burners, forced fem sissy maids and everyone else with half an opinion are at this very moment tracking me down by my IP number to stuff a dildo up my arse to make me pay for stating such derogatory points!


    Ha! You should be so lucky

    ...dave

    (in reply to PiercedDaz)
    Profile   Post #: 7
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 7:52:21 PM   
    SusanofO


    Posts: 5672
    Joined: 12/19/2005
    Status: offline     		Well for me, I think it is natural (what you described). I know for me it's true, because I have such a visceral (good) reaction to it when I think about it. It feels right - to me.

    I don't know how "fair" it is, but I don't really care much about that, honestly. I just like it that way. Of course, I am a submissive, and I've no doubt there are others who feel the same way, only in reverse.
     
    As for why this is true, I think it's a combination of genetics, choice, and learned behavior, but of course don't know for sure.


    - Susan 

    < Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/12/2006 7:55:15 PM >

    _____________________________

    "Hope is the thing with feathers,
    That perches in the soul,
    And sings the tune without the words,
    And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

    (in reply to PiercedDaz)
    Profile   Post #: 8
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 8:01:29 PM   
    MasterFireMaam


    Posts: 5587
    Joined: 3/1/2006
    From: Charleston, WV
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz
    What are you???


    Human.

    Master Fire


    _____________________________

    The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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    BDSM How-To Books

    (in reply to PiercedDaz)
    Profile   Post #: 9
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 8:39:33 PM   
    DiurnalVampire


    Posts: 8125
    Joined: 1/19/2006
    From: Nashville, TN
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz
    • On the flip side, do women Domme and men submit as a rebellious and subconscious fight against a society that has for all our history told us the way it should be?


    Um, no.  Not for me at least.  For me, and in my family, the females have always been the heads of the household. My personality lends itself to being Dominant in general.  With my friends, with my partners... it is just who I am.  I was not bucking sociaty when my dominant nature began, and I still dont feel that I am now. I just happen to know that I am far more comfortable being the one in charge.  I seek out partners (male and female) who are more comfortable letting someone else be the one in charge. 

    My 2 cents
    DV

    _____________________________

    I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

    Snarko Ergo Sum
    If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

    *Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
    VampiresLair

    (in reply to PiercedDaz)
    Profile   Post #: 10
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 10:01:36 PM   
    Archer


    Posts: 3207
    Joined: 3/11/2005
    Status: offline
    • Male hunter/gatherer? Since the time of cavemen, men have been assumed to be the sex that goes out and gets while women stay at home and sweep the cave out.
    OK first off the Hunter Gatherer thing you seem to neglect the gatherer aspect entirely or falsely assign it to the men.
    Women in hunter gatherer societies were usually tasked with gathering. This is evidenced by the facts of current physiological differences that make women better suited to gathering than men.*Note these are general trends not individual traits (Better color vision, more numerous smell receptors in the nose, both important in gathering activities and plant identification)


    • Social conditioning? Society has always (until recently) seen women as the fairer sex and that it is natural for the man to provide for her.
    I would echo the statements of others here already about how this is relatively recent .


    • Do men Dom because it seems to be have been written in some unknown rulebook that this is the way it should be? Do women submit because they feel as though they should to the physical and mental strength of the naturally more aggressive human sex?
    I would conject that the idea of Paternity being always in question until modern times had alot to do with why men found it nessisary to dominate. Look at the number of tradgedy stories about men raising children of other men.The one question in a birth that has almost never been asked is Who's the mother?



    (in reply to DiurnalVampire)
    Profile   Post #: 11
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/12/2006 11:57:57 PM   
    DominaSmartass


    Posts: 961
    Joined: 1/12/2006
    From: This month? Maryland
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz

    I would like to explore the subject of Domination and submission to find the views on whether there are gender issues attached and how much nature and nurture plays a part?

    • Male hunter/gatherer? Since the time of cavemen, men have been assumed to be the sex that goes out and gets while women stay at home and sweep the cave out.


    The stereotype was male hunters and female gatherers, darling.... in fact it was assumed also that early agriculture was a product of gathering, thus women's work. These are just assumptions though made primarily many decades past -- current archaeology has a more varied view of prehistory.

    quote:


  • Social conditioning? Society has always (until recently) seen women as the fairer sex and that it is natural for the man to provide for her.


    • Really more of a middle-class Victorian model -- even in wealthy families where men might have more political roles the income was from combined family resources, thus women's dowries.

    As for fairer -- ha! Wow, both Greeks and Romans (at least) considered women to be the more uncivilized of the two sexes, more easily swayed into their bestial natures thus all the extra rules about how they should behave and a fear of them being in the public.


    I was going to respond something similar and I'm glad I didn't have to. Maybe it's just my uber liberal education talking here, but I was going to say something about how all of these statements by the OP are mostly myths constructed in modern times to validate the way things are now. I could go on and on but I won't. I'll spare you. All I will say is just to please analyze cultural assumptions before assuming they are true. As for even the Victorian era, isn't it true that while men were king of the castle outside the home, the women were quite in charge of many things inside - like the running of the household? Which was no small task by the way with children, servants, yada yada, it was like being in management!

    (in reply to thetammyjo)
    Profile   Post #: 12
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/13/2006 12:10:44 AM   
    Arpig


    Posts: 9930
    Joined: 1/3/2006
    From: Increasingly further from reality
    Status: offline
    quote:

    do women Domme

    Oh fuck....don't tell me its a verb now as well!!


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    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/13/2006 7:17:52 AM   
    thetammyjo


    Posts: 6322
    Joined: 9/8/2005
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

    As for even the Victorian era, isn't it true that while men were king of the castle outside the home, the women were quite in charge of many things inside - like the running of the household? Which was no small task by the way with children, servants, yada yada, it was like being in management!



    From the amount I know about the Victorian period this is very true -- the middleclass household was the woman's sphere in every sense of that word. She ran the servants, decided decoration, run the children's lives, was the hostess for any events that were not business related. She was also thought to be less sexually distracted and more incontrol of herself in many regards. Which always strikes me as an inverse of the Greco-Roman idea of men=control and women=out-of-control by nature.

    Of course then "nature" was reinforced through training and education for generations.

    _____________________________

    Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

    TammyJo

    Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

    And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

    (in reply to DominaSmartass)
    Profile   Post #: 14
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/13/2006 8:56:58 AM   
    liks2plzlf


    Posts: 390
    Joined: 7/21/2005
    Status: offline     		Not sure if ths is what the post is about, but I most confess I am guilty of some of the things mentioned here. I pushed my son to be tough, play sports, especially contact sports.If he got hurt, I was sympathetic, but was also quick to urge him to cowboy up, and take it like a man. My daughters, were treated like a princess. I was raised the same way.   When I was delivering mail for the post office, young children, 10 or younger, came up to the vehicle all the time. Almost always, the boys it was "give me my mail mailman".. The little girls it was more, "may I please have our mail". "thank you". Was that in their genes from birth or family upbringing? Understand, this was in Utah, and the morman beliefs are the man is ultimately the boss.No surprise there was a shortage of Dominas there. I thought the post was more about dominance and submission. Running the house doesn't mean dominating the man, as in D/s or M/s.I have oftened wondered why I have submissive desires. Both me, and my very first real girl friend, came from male controlled households, but she would have none of it. I did anything she wanted, or told me to do.I have to believe it is something we are born with.just as we all are so different in the vanilla world as well.

    (in reply to thetammyjo)
    Profile   Post #: 15
    RE: Dom/me - sub...a gender issue? - 12/13/2006 10:01:40 AM   
    thetammyjo


    Posts: 6322
    Joined: 9/8/2005
    Status: offline     		I think that it is simplistic to say it's all nature or nurture -- as I said if it were all nurture not only would I not be a dominant but I would also not be kinky and I'd have 5 kids by now, be manipulating my husband all the time, making my children's lives living hells, and claiming to be a "good Christian woman" all at the same time.

    The greatest problem is when the person's innate personality is purposely attacked or belittled or they have no outlets for it because it doesn't fit some gender stereotype to which their society clings. I believe having the same expectations for offspring, regardless of biological sex, and encouraging each to become fully happy and functional adults who respect everyone. If everyone did that, I think we'd see a lot more variety in "gender" and I personally think a lot of emotional (and criminal) problems would start to clear up.

    _____________________________

    Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

    TammyJo

    Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

    And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

    (in reply to liks2plzlf)
    Profile   Post #: 16
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