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Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 8:53:32 AM   
RedSavageSlave


Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline 		Ok..so I found this site today and was reading this particular article. It has alot of very interesting viewpoints and I thought I would share the link and offer it up for discussion.

http://www.cuffs.com/stories/discTexts/jonjacobs.htm

Who wants to go first?




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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 9:12:10 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		BDSM doesn't define me

I see BDSM more like an costume jewelry, hair bows, belly belts & misc other items considered to be accessories. All of which are fun to use, mix-n-match & have fun with to dress up the outfit but none of which is necessary. The outfit does well on its own.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 12/1/2006 9:13:39 AM >

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 9:22:09 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		My thoughts upon close reading- it's simply a very thorough and well worded "Cyber play is cyber play and Real True slaves are Real True Slaves."

They also never clearly state up front what their main points are so it really makes for a lot more work on the readers part.



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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 9:23:08 AM   
RedSavageSlave


Posts: 733
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Status: offline 		I agree..but did you read the article before you responded or did you just respond to the title?

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 9:24:07 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I had several problems with this article scanning through it, but my main one was this... what is their academic training? I see he made a reference to anthropology, I wondered by what methodology they came to their subjective conclusions about people who are online. Number one rule in the academic world, never trust what you read online unless it is from a reputable academic source with credentials. It seems they have a lot of experience in the real world and some good observations... some I actually agree with, but at the same time they mix their opinions into it and it lessens the credibility for me.

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 9:26:52 AM   
RedSavageSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

My thoughts upon close reading- it's simply a very thorough and well worded "Cyber play is cyber play and Real True slaves are Real True Slaves."



I agree..its pretty basic.. however, I think it points out some interesting "situations" where you might be able to understand their viewpoints as opposed to just saying My way is better than Your way.

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 9:27:26 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

My thoughts upon close reading- it's simply a very thorough and well worded "Cyber play is cyber play and Real True slaves are Real True Slaves."

They also never clearly state up front what their main points are so it really makes for a lot more work on the readers part.




Oh I knew what their points were when saying people online are "lost". It set the tone of the whole entire article for me, and I wondered who the hell they were to make a determination like that. It made the whole article less credible. I really wish they would have done their work in proving their point by citing sources, that is what good researchers do, and without that it was hard to take them seriously.

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 9:33:33 AM   
RedSavageSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It seems they have a lot of experience in the real world and some good observations... some I actually agree with, but at the same time they mix their opinions into it and it lessens the credibility for me.


yeah.. I think thats where I had a small problem too...with the addition of the opinions and the put downs..

Personally, I DO agree with their FACTS...but the attitude is a bit much coming through.

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 9:36:10 AM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
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Status: offline 		I read the first six paragraphs and my response is:

The first speaker/writer was making a distinction between 'real life full time power exchange relationships' and everything else (which included playing online, at events and within relationships that weren't 'full time PE relationships').

I didn't read beyond those paragraphs because I thought that while this is A distinction one could make, it certainly is not valid to say that there are 'only two BDSM life styles' with 'full-time PE' on one side and 'all the rest' on the other. 

Just looked like someone claiming that theirs (full time PE relationship) was the only 'real' reality, and the rest is 'fantasy'. Looked like a lot of twaddle to me. But maybe it got better later.


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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 10:08:18 AM   
LadyHugs


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Status: offline 		Dear RedSavageSlave, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I do thank you for the article link and the topic to discuss.
 
I will say that, the posting article's authors seems to have a sour puss attitude towards certain things.  In addition, they do make plain their bias against those on-line/cyber and those in real life.
 
But, as with all books, articles, presentations and the like--it is that person's personal opinion and or experiences; to which is not always law.  I do find that people put too much stock in what other 'recognized name people's' works; creating these works into a bible instead of using these works as guides.  Although the article, which is being discussed may have many similiar things in common to my mind's eyes--they are similiar but, not exactly defining what the BDSM Lifestyle is or is not.  The "BDSM Lifestyle" is what individuals make of it.  It is no different trying to define what makes a marriage beyond the basic levels and foundations, using labels and definitions. 
 
As for service.  I noted that the lady said she was middle aged and unable to serve on or from her knees, as she is over weight.  I can empathise with her however, in my salad days in the lifestyle--I was lucky to weigh 90 lbs soaking wet, naked with long hair.  Turn side ways, I could disappear behind a telephone pole.  I was able to kneel for a good bit while serving food and beverages, similiar to what was referred to Gorean service.  So, I was disappointed in the bias towards the service styles.  The fact that she wasn't able, doesn't mean that those who are able, are not real and besmirch their 'slave heart.'
 
Although I do not practice Gorean style, I still respect the philosophy aspects, through service it is establishing the D/s relationship through a form of ritual, ceremony and or protocol.  It reaffirms each other's place.  It is not my place to judge fully as a "life style" someone else's uses or lack of uses for such ritual, protocl and or ceremony.  My focus and duties are inward with my personal relationship, to which my philosophies can flourish and be maintained.
 
What interests me though, is seeing how we (in general terms) as individuals walk our journeys and reach to the goal of our personal happiness.  I get personally excited for people who have found their other.  Although each person walks their own journey, advice given and received aids us when it is proper to do so for 'ourselves/us.'  Nobody can really walk in another's shoes.  BDSM Lifestyle will always be a generalization.  What makes it an individual lifestyle, is what those involved individuals invest into it.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 10:29:14 AM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Just for a little edification note

1. The article dateline 1996

2. Many here do not recognize the name apparantly
Jon Jaccobs is someone who has been around the scene for a long time and was at one time associated with Gloria Brame and a co author of Different Loving.

3. Does not make the opinions right or wrong simply gives a little perspective






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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 10:33:26 AM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I had several problems with this article scanning through it, but my main one was this... what is their academic training? I see he made a reference to anthropology, I wondered by what methodology they came to their subjective conclusions about people who are online. Number one rule in the academic world, never trust what you read online unless it is from a reputable academic source with credentials. It seems they have a lot of experience in the real world and some good observations... some I actually agree with, but at the same time they mix their opinions into it and it lessens the credibility for me.


in a couple send here's what I found
About Jon Jacobs
Born: June 11, 1945, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Education: Attended various public schools in Pittsburgh, the Hillel Academy, Michigan State University, the Highlander Folk School, and several of the best prisons in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Georgia.
Professional Background: 1963-'64, Northeast Regional Task Force, Congress of Racial Equality; 1964-'67, executive director, Southern Co-ordinating Committee to End the War in Viet Nam; 1967-'69, labor organizer for the Southern Labor Action Movement; 1969-'72, reporter, Atlanta Co-operative News; 1973-'75, city editor, Atlanta Co-operative News; 1976-'79, head of the Southern bureau for In These Times; 1979-'82, assistant editor, Brown's Guide to Georgia Magazine; 1982-present, freelance writer, editor, and photojournalist.
Jon has also worked as an actor and as a musician. He has received several prizes for investigative reporting in the Atlanta area. He is an active peer counselor and is recognized as an authority on alternative sexualities. He lives with his wife in Atlanta.
Jon Jacobs is no longer associated with this site. However you can find him at: http://www.submissivewomenspeak.com/

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 10:37:03 AM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		BTW personally I am not a Jon Jacobs fan, he does tend to have an attitude in my mind. (and considering my own level of attitue that's saying something, LOL)

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 10:43:39 AM   
Elegant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

in a couple send here's what I found
About Jon Jacobs
Born: June 11, 1945, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Education: Attended various public schools in Pittsburgh, the Hillel Academy, Michigan State University, the Highlander Folk School, and several of the best prisons in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Georgia.
Professional Background: 1963-'64, Northeast Regional Task Force, Congress of Racial Equality; 1964-'67, executive director, Southern Co-ordinating Committee to End the War in Viet Nam; 1967-'69, labor organizer for the Southern Labor Action Movement; 1969-'72, reporter, Atlanta Co-operative News; 1973-'75, city editor, Atlanta Co-operative News; 1976-'79, head of the Southern bureau for In These Times; 1979-'82, assistant editor, Brown's Guide to Georgia Magazine; 1982-present, freelance writer, editor, and photojournalist.
Jon has also worked as an actor and as a musician. He has received several prizes for investigative reporting in the Atlanta area. He is an active peer counselor and is recognized as an authority on alternative sexualities. He lives with his wife in Atlanta.
Jon Jacobs is no longer associated with this site. However you can find him at: http://www.submissivewomenspeak.com/


Jon Jacobs took a turn to the 'holier than thou' route soon after the book with Gloria Brame. He was known to troll sites to get submissive females to join his own website and that led to other things that are of much rumor etc etc etc.

I think he died a few years ago.


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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 11:12:55 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		I read it a long time ago


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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 12:18:09 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer


in a couple send here's what I found
About Jon Jacobs
Born: June 11, 1945, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Education: Attended various public schools in Pittsburgh, the Hillel Academy, Michigan State University, the Highlander Folk School, and several of the best prisons in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Georgia.
Professional Background: 1963-'64, Northeast Regional Task Force, Congress of Racial Equality; 1964-'67, executive director, Southern Co-ordinating Committee to End the War in Viet Nam; 1967-'69, labor organizer for the Southern Labor Action Movement; 1969-'72, reporter, Atlanta Co-operative News; 1973-'75, city editor, Atlanta Co-operative News; 1976-'79, head of the Southern bureau for In These Times; 1979-'82, assistant editor, Brown's Guide to Georgia Magazine; 1982-present, freelance writer, editor, and photojournalist.
Jon has also worked as an actor and as a musician. He has received several prizes for investigative reporting in the Atlanta area. He is an active peer counselor and is recognized as an authority on alternative sexualities. He lives with his wife in Atlanta.
Jon Jacobs is no longer associated with this site. However you can find him at: http://www.submissivewomenspeak.com/


Nice credentials, but my objection remains the same, he is bringing up academic concepts, giving no credit to those who came up with those concepts, in order to prove his opinion correct. I see no references in this article which is highly biased against those who are not 365/24/7. It puts a value on one way of living over another. It makes judgments about the happiness of those involved with fantasy online. This article denigrates others, including labelling them as "lost". If one is going to write as an expert in any field they should know better than to do so without citing sources... it is rather disappointing to me that this person has an education and yet does not think he needs to do things that any PhD does as a matter of course. The writing through out this article takes on a matter of fact tone that has the connotation of being academic and yet it is not. There is no list of references at the bottom of the page... I am kinda glad in some ways there were none as to make it clear this is just an "opinion" and not honest to goodness real research like Kinsey does.

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 12:18:21 PM   
RedSavageSlave


Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline 		ahh ok :)


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My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 12:54:04 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave

Ok..so I found this site today and was reading this particular article. It has alot of very interesting viewpoints and I thought I would share the link and offer it up for discussion.

http://www.cuffs.com/stories/discTexts/jonjacobs.htm

Who wants to go first?





I'd be interested to know what you thought were interesting viewpoints. I'd much rather discuss those ideas because I think my eyes started to glaze over as I was reading so much OTW that I missed the parts which were interesting. ::chuckles::

OK, that was somewhat tic .. I actually do agree with a small bit of what was written there, but it's nothing new and it wasn't new in 1996. OTW has been around for as long as man existed in some form or another, be it religion, philosophy or the best (only) way to bake brownies. (And I'm not sorry to say that unless you are using my recipe to bake brownies, then you just have never tasted a 'real' brownie before but since 'most' people have the palate of a cardboard box they just don't know any better.  )

Beyond those who have taken exception to the denigration of anything other than 24/7 PE, the article just seems to treat those who are not in 24/7 PE (whether by choice or circumstance) as if they are not only lost.. but downright stupid. ::shrugs::

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 12/1/2006 12:55:59 PM >

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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 1:04:38 PM   
SirDiscipliner69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlavehttp://www.cuffs.com/stories/discTexts/jonjacobs.htm


Gawd...I thought that was all buried when the text internet went WWW.

Ross

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http://tinyurl.com/ygblqt
Designermite :
http://tinyurl.com/ueov5
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RE: Defining the BDSM Lifestyle - 12/1/2006 2:16:52 PM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is no list of references at the bottom of the page... I am kinda glad in some ways there were none as to make it clear this is just an "opinion" and not honest to goodness real research like Kinsey does.


One more thing you might have missed in the reading

This was the text of a presentation presented to a group, not a scholarly article printed to stand alone.

"Hello, my name is Polly Peachum. I and my master, Jon Jacobs, were invited to speak to you on the subject of Defining the BDSM Life Style by Arturo and sasha, ..."

"*************************Jon's Speech: **********************************
Polly has said the bulk of what we want to talk about tonight,..."

The section you mention specificly I didn't read the way you did

"Does anyone here have a degree in or any experience in anthropology? If you do, you'll recognize that there's a name for the sort of subculture that I've just described: mystery cult. "

The statement I translate as  "In the field of Anthropology, they have a term 'mystery cult' I think it applies to the current state of much of the SM community and here's why..."

Could he have sourced the defintion? certainly. Had this been rather than a presentation for a group/ munch/ event, a scholarly article written for publication I might have felt the same need for a sourcing. I certainly would have rather seen a easier to read definition breaking down the definition/ charcteristics of a mystery cult, so that I could more easily judge for myself if it fit.




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