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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/30/2006 9:24:52 AM

juliaoceania

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FR

I wanted to post a couple of links about gang structure and economic incentives to join gangs for a compare and contrast when looking at what is happening in Iraq to see if what is happening their is apples and oranges to the street gang scenario that is common in countries with established governments where these sorts of gangs operate outside the law.

http://www.econ.brown.edu/econ/sthesis/AnnePapers/Anne9.html

http://www.faculty.missouristate.edu/M/MichaelCarlie/what_I_learned_about/GANGS/gangs_101.htm

It is best to define something before we use it as a label...

And Caitlyn... I am not flaming you or your friend, but even Colin Powell states this is a Civil War, and his specialty is to recognize such things. I am unsure of what your colonel friend does, but not everyone is a social scientist in the military..

On the liberal side of the equation, Jimmy Carter does not believe the level of violence rises to civil war. I truly think that this is a substantive discussion, and not one that you should feel is a personal attack because we question what you heard.. on my end I do not intend to come across that way.

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/30/2006 9:40:40 AM

Lordandmaster

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That's ridiculous. The Crips and the Bloods don't blow up marketplaces and certainly don't have a political agenda.

Edited to add: OK, I see that other people have objected to this too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

There is no civil war in Iraq, according to the Colonal, and if the press would get out in harms way, they would know this. He says what is going on is strictly urban gang warfare, much like the Crips and Bloods. Again, I'm not sure I buy this, but the information is, what it is.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 11/30/2006 9:41:02 AM >

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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/30/2006 10:00:02 AM

sleazy

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Oh boy, I suspect I am about to make some enemies here.......so be it, I'm a big boy and can face the music even when I dont like the tune.

Julia I looked at both the links you provided, the first deals specifically with one aspect of gangdom(?) namely the sale of forbiden products as a method of generating cash. All the people I know over there have been offered for sale items that cannot, or in some cases can, be bought in the corner shop to enable cash to flow, and this is not always to put bread on an infants plate. (anybody needing a good deal on AK-47s please mail me off list)*

The second deals with the "command structure" of such groups, may I refer you to my earlier post where I commented on kudos. The more kudos, the nearer the inner circle you become. Lets consider a crip again, shoot a few rival gang members, a couple of cops, now you're in the inner circle and can even take a pop at the head man and be the boss yourself. Trade cops for "infidel yankee imperialists" and I see no difference I'm afraid.

As for a choice in who to believe, well on the one hand we have a politically appointed desk jockey, with a political agenda, on the other hand we have a man who has been there, done and seen it. Should I send my friends into danger based on what my government says, or should I listen to the other friends already crawling round in the dirt?

And please correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Mr Powell an ex-military man (albeit a liberal one) rather than a social scientist? Wikipedia reveals a pair of MBAs, but does not elaborate what they are.

I find it ironic that the liberal view is that there is no civil war, as I believe that to be the case, and in many respects I am far from liberal :)

*for those unused to my somewhat sarcastic british humour that was a joke, honest

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/30/2006 10:04:16 AM

sleazy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's ridiculous. The Crips and the Bloods don't blow up marketplaces and certainly don't have a political agenda.

Edited to add: OK, I see that other people have objected to this too.

If they could get away with it, and it furthered their ends would the crips blow up a marketplace?

money, drugs, turf, domestic appliances, they are all a political currency and means of gaining power.

Anybody who votes for me get to live on a block free of the jooblie gang and gets a brand new refrigerator and big screen TV, oh and the cops wont be round hassling you about expired tags either ;)

edited to add, yes gangs do have a political agenda, to secure and expand their power base, politics is not just a democratic vote, after all nobody casts a ballot as to how much the new manager is liked in the office. If you want him gone you use "office politics"

< Message edited by sleazy -- 11/30/2006 10:06:30 AM >

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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/30/2006 10:15:39 AM

juliaoceania

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There is not liberal or conservative viewpoints on this was my point in bringing up Jimmy Carter and Colin Powell btw.

There is chaos in Iraq, the established governmental structure is not in place to a large degree, gang violence and economic activitity surrounding gang violence usually takes place for economic reasons, not political ones. The gang violence in LA for example has no intention of undermining civil society completely in order to control it... in fact their markets exist as a result of laws in place to control illegal activity.. without those laws that govern vice crimes they would have no underground market. They would not exist if this was the case.

Now think about Iraq, the command structure wants to undermine civil society, the so-called "government" (which has no real power) is being undermined by the violence, there are political targets for the violence... not only economic ones. The money obtained through kidnapping is often reinvested in more weaponry. It is not a situation of trying to operate within the legal structures for economic gain... as in LA, the violence is designed to undermine any authority whatsoever...

that was the point of the links I posted.

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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/30/2006 10:44:52 AM

sleazy

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I understand what you are saying about liberal view points. It just tickled me to think of being allied on this subject to a viewpoint that was being put forward as liberal.

Economics and politics are the same coin, you cannot have one without the other, money buys votes, and Joe will vote for money every time. Which is the more powerful political tool, dollar bills or rifle rounds is a game that will be played long after I leave this planet

I suspect I am possibly taking things to what seems to me to be a logical conclusion, but obviously one that you disagree with.

Why do the crips shoot at cop cars, or informers, or Joe public that gets in the way? I believe to stop the cops interfering in their business, stopping the law being enforced, surely that is undermining the civil society? You seem to agree in the second to last line of your post. What is civil society without authority and vice versa. What product they sell is largely immaterial, gangs are a pyramid scam, drugs, guns, kinapees, whores, stolen tv sets, or blue pebbles, as long as something has an intrinsic or cash value it can be marketed. The end result is power backed by either dollar bills or a 7.62 rifle round, both of which are political clout.

From a purely tactical viewpoint neither the crips nor the rebels/insurgents/insert-label-here in Iraq can be countered by an army of occupation, unless you declare martial law, curfews, shoot on sight etc, and of course that undermines the whole concept of democracy. The only way to deal with either group is an effective police force with the backing of the elected, and more importantly the support of the electorate.

As a PS, I hope you are not taking any of this personally, I'm actually enjoying the debate. Sat here I usually see only the trees that concern me, having someone else explain their forest is very interesting

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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/30/2006 10:55:58 AM

juliaoceania

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I have to get ready for a job interview, but basically I will reiterate my point. I think that if you talked to the leaders of the crips and the bloods about their structure and the economic base they would tell you that they realize that some order and laws are good for business, if the government legalized their trade they would cease to exist. If there was total chaos they would cease to exist. The ones at the top of the pyramid see this, they are happy with their lucrative niche and have no desire to undermine the system that made them their money....

... compare to Iraq, there is a battle going on for political dominance over the central government... it is just a different situation and not even comparable in my eyes...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/30/2006 11:00:11 AM >

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/30/2006 2:57:10 PM

Lordandmaster

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Expanding one's power base is not a political agenda. The death brigades in Iraq are all associated with political parties--indeed, they're the sine qua non of political parties, because without an armed presence, no political party has any hope of achieving its aims in Iraq today. That's not like the Crips and the Bloods.

Here, you might enjoy reading this (even though you'll probably dismiss it as liberal trash):

Iraq: The War of the Imagination, by Mark Danner

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

edited to add, yes gangs do have a political agenda, to secure and expand their power base, politics is not just a democratic vote, after all nobody casts a ballot as to how much the new manager is liked in the office. If you want him gone you use "office politics"

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