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RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 5:40:52 AM

sophia37

Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
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You know what Jersey, I dont believe this conversation IS about racism. I think its about economic health and prosperity for a nation. Almost every "race" is involved here.

Interesting that someone brought up the India worker. Here we are talking about guest workers INTO the country when corporations are doing all they can to EXPORT jobs to say, India! Its certainly a good way around the whole problem isnt it.
I guess in order to compete with this, we should consider the one person's contribution that suggested we pay 2/3 the minimum wage to "guest workers" .

I cant say what the answer is. But I can say exactly where we're headed in the US. We're headed back to whence we came. Multi generational families under one roof. We're already pretty well maxxed out with our cash supplies with two people working under one roof. Go have a read of the post by the person who wants to move to NY but wants a non existant 80 thousand dollar house to go with it. We will most defintely need to keep Mom and Dad around for their pensions and helping hands.

And THAT, is the end result of NAFTA and free trade and guest workers and lazy children and greed and poor planning and self centeredness. Now, should we have a conversation on how to fix all that?

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 21

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 6:30:43 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

And THAT, is the end result of NAFTA and free trade and guest workers and lazy children and greed and poor planning and self centeredness. Now, should we have a conversation on how to fix all that?

I'm not quite seeing the problem with Nafta, it seems to me that the US holds all the aces but is still bitcthin'. That smacks of a country past its best, where generally innovation and energy is wearing out and a decadent malaise is taking over.

The US has been the main promoter of free trade around the world, largely for its own benefit and why not but now it has largely got free trade and other countries are learning to compete, it population on the whole wants to shut its borders.

Closing borders won't work, the world will just pass you by. No one has to buy US products and services and they won't buy them if they are more expensive than someone elses products that are just as good. The only solution is to compete and migrant workers are all part of that free flow of services, labour and skills.

The best way to keep Mexicans out is to allow their economy to develop and compete, it is also the best option for the US too. Competition will keep the malaise at bay.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sophia37)

Post #: 22

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 6:41:54 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I'm not quite seeing the problem with Nafta, it seems to me that the US holds all the aces but is still bitcthin'. That smacks of a country past its best, where generally innovation and energy is wearing out and a decadent malaise is taking over.

Certain elements of our society are highly vocal, well past their power base. Don't confuse being highly vocal, with highly influential.

Just look at the posts concerning this topic. You have a segment that wants all 'illegals' kicked out, and in the same breath insists that we have to keep American companies from outsourcing. What do these people suppose is behind door number three?

The big dumb monolith moves slowly, and at times moves so slowly that it seems to be moving backwards ... but don't be fooled, it does move and when it does, it's still going to be the big dumb monolith ... at least in our lifetime.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 23

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 7:28:39 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JerseyKrissi72

Alot of times I read through these forums and think they are nothing more than opportunities for people to hear themselves talk...I smell so much racism ....

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JerseyKrissi:
Your nose does not lie JerseyKrissi...this whole thread and all like it are nothing but racist rhetoric.
We outlawed slavery in our country but now there are those who would bring it back by importing slaves and paying them less than a living wage and they justify it by saying that those people would starve in thier own country.
The way to end illegal immigration and to make any guest worker program a moot point is to pay what it takes to get any given job done.
When computer programers started getting $60 + dollars per hour we import programers from India who will work for $15. We denigrate those who would rather accept welfare of $20,000 per year rather than work dawn to dusk in an unhealthy environment for $10,000 per year.
When Harley Davidson lobbied for and got a tax levied on Japanese bikes so that they could compete on a "level playing field" they promptly raised the price of thier bikes from $10,000 to $20,000.
Every valid study of how much undocumented workers cost the U.S. shows that the undocumented worker is not a burden. He is paid less for the same work has taxes taken out that are not remited to the government. The social services that they receive are supported by property taxes. Unless you live under a bridge you pay property tax. If you are a rentor you pay your landloards property tax in your rent. Undocumented workers are not entitled to welfare. I have had literally hundreds of people try to pass that old saw off on me and when pressed for facts it is always some friend of a friend said yadda yadda yadda.....more rhetoric. As human beings everyone has a basic right to the emergency room in hospitals. It is in the best interests of society that those with bubonic plague be treated and not left to infect the population at large.
The whole immigration debate is a farce...if corporate amerika were to pay labor the going rate there would be no undocumented workers. If you got paid $15 per hour to pick beans the bean fields would be full of american labor and not forign labor. Americans are not lazy they just are too smart to work for substandard wages when the welfare system which they as taxpayers are entitled to pays more.

thompson

(in reply to JerseyKrissi72)

Post #: 24

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 7:45:58 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

Even you are resorting to cheap shots.

This message board is losing it's interest ... at least to me.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 25

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 8:21:54 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Even you are resorting to cheap shots.

This message board is losing it's interest ... at least to me.

Caitlyn:
cheap shots????Please explaine ...
thompson

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 26

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 8:29:44 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

You posted:

"Your nose does not lie JerseyKrissi...this whole thread and all like it are nothing but racist rhetoric."

I've always enjoyed your posts, but will clearly admit that the name calling on this board, is getting beyond tiresome.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 27

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 12:12:41 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Yes, to which race are you referring?
And how are they being "discriminated" against?
I would include people from China, India, Russia and Eastern Europe in a "guestworker program".
That's pretty "diverse" don't you think?
Caitlyn and me were disscussing a "guest worker program" on another thread and I thought it might be interesting to find out how different people would structure such a program.
After all I think it would only be fair for American Citizens and Voters to have a say in such a program this being a Democracy and all.
Given our government's past track record in this area I think Citizen feedback would be very important and should definately be taken into consideration before building such a program, don't you?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/26/2006 12:21:55 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 28

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 12:41:36 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

You don't need to exclude specific nations from a guest worker program.

People that are already here illegally, would be offered a work permit, providing they have an American business willing to sponsor them (who would also be responsible or them), and all others would be deported.

The argument is used that these people come here seeking work. We should accept that at face value. If they are working, they can stay ... but you can't allow a guest worker program to be used as a tool to come to this country and soak up free services. That isn't the intent. The 'land of opportunity' exists for those that want to work for it, not something to be provided by our government.

Caitlyn, you're wrong on that. You want to "reward" people who sneak into our country illegally?
Everytime an illegal sends money home to their countries and uses a wire service or the USPS they are committing a Federal Felony; "Mailfraud" "Wirefraud." You can't use the mail to send money which was obtained illegally.
What is so outragious about that is that we have U.S. Citizens in prison for these very same crimes!
Illegal aliens get a "pass" on Federal Felonys now?
How about gold plated trophys and gift certificates for bank robbers and rapists?
What makes America the great country that it is is that we are a country of Laws, or we're supposed to be!
Anyone in our govt. who doesn't want to do their job in this area needs to either resign or be fired and that goes for the White House right on down!
When someone is hired to do a job they don't get to "pick and choose" what things they want to do.
I don't know why people in govt. think (they) are any different.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 29

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 1:02:29 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

This whole taking jobs from Americans claim is bull. Did the the entire restaurant industry just one day decide to stop hiring young people to work in the kitchens and instead hire Hispanics? No! The fact is that if restaurants in most parts of the country didn't hire Hispanic immigrants they wouldn't be able to keep their doors open. I've got family in the food service industry and it is getting to the point where they're having trouble finding enough wait staff and other front of the house staff who speak clear english. And the days of kitchen workers getting paid minimum wage are over. So you can't blame the lack of american job seekers on low pay. I know of $10 hour full time kitchen jobs that went empty until the employer started hiring people who weren't fluent in English.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 30

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 1:42:36 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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We may call it a "guest worker" program but no matter how much make up you put on that pig it is still a pig. When we bring or allow people to come to this country and work for slave wages we are guilty of slavery which is also a federal felony. If we pay a laborer what their time is worth (and that is determined by the market) there will be no jobs available to undocumented workers. The arguement that if we had to pay for labor at the fair market price then we could not make any money selling cotton was the justification for slavery before the civil war. Well now the cotton industry is manned by free labor and they are making money with both hands. Similarly if all restaurants, hotels, farmers and everyone else who hires undocumented workers had to pay the fair market price for labor then americans would take those jobs.
There is no shortage of bean pickers only a shortage of bean pickers who will work for five or six dollars an hour. There is no shortage of programers only a shortage of programers who are willing to work for ten or fifteen dollars an hour. When someone tells me that they cannot hire a dishwasher for ten dollars an hour maybe that means that they should pay more rather than take advantage of someone who is starving to death and has no legal status to work. You can't even hire a baby sitter for ten dollars an hour any more. When I was a child a baby sitter earned fifty cents an hour but then gasoline was only a quarter and a new pick up was only fifteen hundred. My first job was one dollar an hour yes it was washing dishes and oh yeah everyone in the restaurant spoke english. I worked for a very progressive company (Cliftons Cafeteria) There were many undocumented workers who sought to work there but they were underqualified compaired to those who were hired. Bill Gates and others like him bring in thousands of programers from India telling the U.S. government that there are not enough programers here.
If you want to stop illegal immigration sanction those in corporate amerika who employ them. Confiscate their bussinesses and their bank accounts which were created by the use of this slave labor. Back in the days of slavery the slave owner was obligated to provide for the slaves health both before they had reached the age of productivity and after they had exceeded it. Now with wage slavery they have no obligation (kinda like canned beer...pop em open suck em dry and crush them) Way cheaper than old tyme slavery.

thompson

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 31

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 1:54:53 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Even you are resorting to cheap shots.

This message board is losing it's interest ... at least to me.

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caitlyn:
I never do cheap shots...all my shots are full price plus tax.

thompson

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 32

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 3:15:13 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We may call it a "guest worker" program but no matter how much make up you put on that pig it is still a pig. When we bring or allow people to come to this country and work for slave wages we are guilty of slavery which is also a federal felony. If we pay a laborer what their time is worth (and that is determined by the market) there will be no jobs available to undocumented workers. The arguement that if we had to pay for labor at the fair market price then we could not make any money selling cotton was the justification for slavery before the civil war. Well now the cotton industry is manned by free labor and they are making money with both hands. Similarly if all restaurants, hotels, farmers and everyone else who hires undocumented workers had to pay the fair market price for labor then americans would take those jobs.
There is no shortage of bean pickers only a shortage of bean pickers who will work for five or six dollars an hour. There is no shortage of programers only a shortage of programers who are willing to work for ten or fifteen dollars an hour. When someone tells me that they cannot hire a dishwasher for ten dollars an hour maybe that means that they should pay more rather than take advantage of someone who is starving to death and has no legal status to work. You can't even hire a baby sitter for ten dollars an hour any more. When I was a child a baby sitter earned fifty cents an hour but then gasoline was only a quarter and a new pick up was only fifteen hundred. My first job was one dollar an hour yes it was washing dishes and oh yeah everyone in the restaurant spoke english. I worked for a very progressive company (Cliftons Cafeteria) There were many undocumented workers who sought to work there but they were underqualified compaired to those who were hired. Bill Gates and others like him bring in thousands of programers from India telling the U.S. government that there are not enough programers here.
If you want to stop illegal immigration sanction those in corporate amerika who employ them. Confiscate their bussinesses and their bank accounts which were created by the use of this slave labor. Back in the days of slavery the slave owner was obligated to provide for the slaves health both before they had reached the age of productivity and after they had exceeded it. Now with wage slavery they have no obligation (kinda like canned beer...pop em open suck em dry and crush them) Way cheaper than old tyme slavery.

thompson

Thompson, I agree with all of the above.
As I said we are getting away from real capitalism in this country.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 33

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/26/2006 4:29:36 PM

sleazy

Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

I live in an area with a very high eastern european population. As a result low income rental housing is almost impossible to find for the traditional nuclear family, a landlord can make far more money by splitting a regular 3 bed house into shared accomodation for officially 5, but there are at least 8 living next door to me.

Employment agencies are oversubscribed for most trades and the unskilled. At the risk of stereotyping (although this has been mentioned in a blog by a local ambulance driver) the local hospital is practically always full of such people having had a "few" drinks and proceded to beat the living daylights out of each other. The migrant workers ignore almost completely the rules of the road, are involved in many accidents, rarely stop and are often uninsured etc too, even those that bring their own cars with them. I would hazard a guess that all those who could afford a bmw, mercedes, and simialr motors at home in (usually judging by the plates) the baltic states are obviously high earners back home relatively speaking.

Who wins, the landlords, the employers, and not many other people. Not the Inland Revenue for sure, a migrant tradesman will work for almost minimum wage, whereas a native would demand higher earnings and thus pay more to the treasury.

As for creating opportunities for citizens, many round here are single parents, or claiming various forms of sickness/disability benefit (geniune or not), and a good chunk of the rest are just unemployable be it through drink, drugs, lack of ability to think, or dare I say just downright lazy, yes i know yet more stereotypes.

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 34

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/27/2006 12:08:04 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Isn't the conversation about guest/migrant works rather than illegal immigrants? I couldn't comment on the cost of deporting an illegal immigrant from the US but what I can comment on is the fact that there are economic and social costs to British citizens attached to pursuing a policy of attracting migrant workers. I imagine these costs translate to the US too.

Britain isn't running a policy to attract migrant workers, it is running a policy to keep employment high and that means lower wages than France or Germany but much higher wages than somewhere like Poland. If Britain sets its wages too high, firms will simply move to countries like Poland and Czech Republic etc. which many German companies are doing and many French companies will leave Britain and return to France or go east. Britain could increase the minimum wage but that won't increase living standards because many of the people who would have benefited would end up worse off on unemployment benefit.

The reaons for the wealth gap in Britian is not the wage policy but Britain's tax policy. People at the bottom of society pay a higher percentage of their income in tax than people on the richest incomes. That is a policy that the government could rectify without having international trade consequences. Blair refuses to and that says a lot about Blair.

Getting back to migration. Britain is a member of the EU and should have free and open borders for all citizens of the EU. I think it is a scandal that there isn't. It would benefit all the EU in the long run to have a free movement of people and capital. The EU will only compete and keep the influence of the US, China and India at bay by having such policies and the EU has far better social policies on the whole than Britain and all the other blocks. British people only have themselves to blame for crap governance. They keep voting in governments that keep the poor poor and lean more towards laissez faire capitalism, which by experience they already know only benefits the rich in society. It blows my mind how many British people visit Holland, France and Germany, comment on how much better they are governed and then go back to Britain and vote for the same crap all the time.

Migration is an issue here too but its not used to distract the population from probelms in government policy.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 35

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/27/2006 1:39:03 AM

sleazy

Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Getting back to migration. Britain is a member of the EU and should have free and open borders for all citizens of the EU. I think it is a scandal that there isn't. It would benefit all the EU in the long run to have a free movement of people and capital.

I am afraid I have to take issue with this particular point :(

Britian is one of the few larger economies in the EU that does not restrict internal migration. As soon as any EU mandate comes down the wire Britain falls over itself to comply unlike some other nations within the community. Regardless on how I stand on the whole on or out of europe issue the playing field has to be levelled.

Lets pretend for a moment that the proposed guest worker program becomes law in the US. What would happen if the states of Florida, Texas and New York refused to take part? What would happen if Idaho refused to buy fruit from California, or Texas refused Alaskan Oil? The rules have to work over the entire EU fairly, consistently and evenly.

I could continue for hours on outsourcing, the death of manufacturing, dumbing down of education, and the welfare state but think that would be straying too far from the original post :)

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 36

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/27/2006 1:50:30 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I am afraid I have to take issue with this particular point :(

Britian is one of the few larger economies in the EU that does not restrict internal migration. As soon as any EU mandate comes down the wire Britain falls over itself to comply unlike some other nations within the community. Regardless on how I stand on the whole on or out of europe issue the playing field has to be levelled.

I agree, it is a crying shame that Germany and France never had the bottle to allow free migration from the new EU countries and I think they will eventually pay the political costs as the new countries reach maturity in the EU. However, Britain has absorbed 4-600,000 migrants from eastern Europe and still has a better employment record than both France and Germany. There are political dividends to be reaped but Britain's reluctance to enthusiastically accept it is a member of the EU and its preference to support American policy at the expense of European policy means it always squanders its political capital. Fuck knows why it does it because London has no more influence in Washingtone than Paris or Berlin.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)

Post #: 37

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/27/2006 2:38:43 AM

sleazy

Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I am afraid I have to take issue with this particular point :(

Britian is one of the few larger economies in the EU that does not restrict internal migration. As soon as any EU mandate comes down the wire Britain falls over itself to comply unlike some other nations within the community. Regardless on how I stand on the whole on or out of europe issue the playing field has to be levelled.

I agree, it is a crying shame that Germany and France never had the bottle to allow free migration from the new EU countries and I think they will eventually pay the political costs as the new countries reach maturity in the EU. However, Britain has absorbed 4-600,000 migrants from eastern Europe and still has a better employment record than both France and Germany. There are political dividends to be reaped but Britain's reluctance to enthusiastically accept it is a member of the EU and its preference to support American policy at the expense of European policy means it always squanders its political capital. Fuck knows why it does it because London has no more influence in Washingtone than Paris or Berlin.

I am not completely certain that other nations have a better or worse employment rate than here, I am unsure how the other governments may massage the figures by using training courses and medical grounds to move people from the unemployed lists. What I do think is that possibly a greater proportion of the citizens of those countries may be of the opinion that their government at least pretends to listen and care with the odd act to appease the masses thrown in for good measure.

As for political influence, the UK is quite possibly the only nation with purely political influence in the US. Yes it is extremely limited, but the very fact it is there makes a difference even if only a small one.

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 38

RE: Guest Worker Program - 11/27/2006 2:55:26 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

As for political influence, the UK is quite possibly the only nation with purely political influence in the US. Yes it is extremely limited, but the very fact it is there makes a difference even if only a small one.

Britain is a member of the EU and constantly undermines the EU with its unconditional support for the US while getting very little in return and sacrificing enormous influence in Europe. This policy is totally bizarre.

As for European countries caring more for its citizens, one only has to look at the difference in attitude of the respective governments when a German, French or Dutch person finds themselves in trouble abroad and when a Brit does. It is much easier for the US to extradite a Brit than it is for Britain to extradite an American! You would not find any other European country allowing that state of affairs.

Back on topic. Migrant workers exist because there is work, if there is no work there wouldn't be migrant workers. They cannot lower wages below a minimum wage and if there is a restriction on labour and wages rise too high the jobs simply disappear or move to another country anyway. One can complain about migrant workers going to Britain but Brits migrate to other countries, set up businesses, buy land etc. One should look at the whole picture. The free movement of people is a positive thing and prevents a malaise in an economy from which all would suffer.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/27/2006 2:58:09 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)

Post #: 39

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