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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 12:42:31 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Where I come from it works like this:

You back your facts with references. If you think something you have said is common knowledge and someone questions it, then you give them a source to look at that supports your "fact".

The problem with this is that someone that is less than intellectually honest will ask you a bazillion questions about your "facts" because they see your propensity to back what you say and want to get you bogged down in the minutiae instead of talking about the meat and potatoes of your worldview. I had this happen to me recently on CM so I left the thread, I was asked about 5 or 6 questions about details within my post and my posts to other people, each question would have taken a few pages to answer. I do not play that game either.

So while I think people should back up their assertions, others should not snowball them in a debate by asking them to define something like a "social program" ... both debate techniques are flawed and dishonest in my opinion (notice I did not call my opinion fact...weg).

Interesting take.

Not accurate, but interesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Not all people that are affected by capitalism live in countries that have "social programs". In fact the vast majority of humanity does not live in a country that has "social programs". Capitalism is unsustainable for the world, we are just living off the resources so we do not see that... myopic vision

Would you mind sourcing this assertion?

A few definitions would help as well:

1. "social program"
2. "vast majority of humanity"
3. "affected by capitalism"

And, as an aside ... why do you think "capitalism is unsustainable"?

FirmKY

It was your opinion that this is a "bazillion questions" and "would have taken a few pages to answer." The facts speak for themselves, I think:

Here is a perfectly valid answer:

1. "social program" - any government or private service that transfers resources from one individual or group to another that is economically disadvantaged within that society.

2. "vast majority of humanity" Anything more than 75%

3. "affected by capitalism" 99% of all humanity.

Social Security Programs Throughout the World

This publication highlights the principal features of social security programs in more than 170 countries: old-age, survivors, and disability; sickness and maternity; work injury; unemployment; and family allowances.

Took me about 3 minutes and a single google search. There's plenty more information easily available.

The problem is, that the facts did not support your assertion, which is why you refused to continue the discussion.

But ... that's just my opinion.

And this is a perfect example of the difference between "facts" and "opinions".

FirmKY

PS. I'm sorry for the (partial) hijack, and it won't happen again. Really.

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 4:03:53 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trannysub007

my opinion - Dubya is a bad president.

Nobody can say anything that would change my opinion of him as a president, therefore they cannot prove my opinion wrong. Is it then a fact that he is a bad president?

i think he is,

You are exactly correct. This statement is your opinion.

quote:

based on what he has and has not done for this country, but it's still just an opinion.

Here is where the argument breaks down. Rather than simply stand forth and exclaim that you think Monkeyboy is a bad president, you cite "what he has and has not done for this country" as your reasons for hating him.

What he has and has not done for this country would be facts. Not opinions.

It might be your opinion that he invaded Iraq.

But when you turn on the news and read about the Iraq invasion, it tends to provide evidence that your opinion is correct.

It might be your opinion that Monkeyboy found oil on pluto.

But when you go and look up the facts to support it, one finds no evidence that Monkeyboy ever tried to drill for oil on the Orbiting Rock Formerly Known As The Ninth Planet.

What a lot of people do is make a statement like "I hate brie cheese because it fails to bring out the flavor of expensive bourdeaux," a lot of people jump up and scream "Brie cheese is to bordeaux as Monica Lewinsky is to cigars in the oval office."

The thread then devolves into senseless bickering about whether Monica Lewinsky liked cigars, was overweight, belonged in the oval office, supported NAFTA, etc.

When all you were trying to do was state that you hate brie cheese.

Clear as mud?

Sinergy

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 4:07:32 PM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

For example it is my opinion i give the best head in the world. Now unless one man gets head from everyone in the world and says either yes im the best or no im not it would be hard to prove the opinion wrong or right. Plus would his answer not only be his opinion and not actually fact?

I am humbly offering myself as a test subject to find out if, in fact, you do give the best head. Of course, I will have to test everyone else... just to be certain. And I promise to give you facts and not my opinions.

Well i walked straight in to that one
But what the hell i believe it to be fact so bring it on

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 4:11:59 PM

TreSwank

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Now unless one man gets head from everyone in the world and says either yes im the best or no im not it would be hard to prove the opinion wrong or right.

Well, I'm pretty close. Don't worry.......you're number 9,596,492,293,299, which I should reach by year 2014. You'll get your shot!!!!

*Waits ever-so-anxiously for colorful response.

< Message edited by TreSwank -- 11/15/2006 4:12:52 PM >

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 4:16:04 PM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreSwank

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Now unless one man gets head from everyone in the world and says either yes im the best or no im not it would be hard to prove the opinion wrong or right.

Well, I'm pretty close. Don't worry.......you're number 9,596,492,293,299, which I should reach by year 2014. You'll get your shot!!!!

*Waits ever-so-anxiously for colorful response.

I said man hun not boy!!

< Message edited by missturbation -- 11/15/2006 4:17:06 PM >

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 4:29:14 PM

anthrosub

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What is factual is based on what we know, either as individuals or a group. What we know is based on empirical evidence.

Experience plays a major role in the previous two sentences. For you may have an experience that provides the evidence but until someone else (or a group) has the same experience or something close to it, your position may be considered an opinion.

To add another layer to the process, there's also the problem of interpretation. Everyone can have the same experience but come away with a different take on the evidence.

Because of these dynamics, we are forced to rely on things like probability, a person or group's credibility, theory, and research. But this is not the end all solution either.

Some people will refuse to look at evidence, credibility may be readily accepted by some while rejected outright by others, or the evidence is not readily at hand or hasn't been sufficiently examined yet.

Most "reasonable" people will use their intelligence (yet another item that's subject to interpretation) and gut instinct to judge whether something is true or not. People bring to the table their own unique understanding and that determines the course of the debate. Generally speaking, you can usually trust someone who demonstrates an open mind towards a subject.

The boards here and elsewhere run rampant with all of the above dynamics (and more) at play.

These are for me...facts.

anthrosub

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 4:36:46 PM

ScooterTrash

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

For example it is my opinion i give the best head in the world. Now unless one man gets head from everyone in the world and says either yes im the best or no im not it would be hard to prove the opinion wrong or right. Plus would his answer not only be his opinion and not actually fact?

I am humbly offering myself as a test subject to find out if, in fact, you do give the best head. Of course, I will have to test everyone else... just to be certain. And I promise to give you facts and not my opinions.

Well i walked straight in to that one
But what the hell i believe it to be fact so bring it on

Shouldn't there be a lottery for this sort of thing (weg).

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 4:41:46 PM

missturbation

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I was thinking more along the lines of an orderly formed queue

< Message edited by missturbation -- 11/15/2006 4:42:24 PM >

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 9:08:12 PM

trannysub007

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: trannysub007

my opinion - Dubya is a bad president.

Nobody can say anything that would change my opinion of him as a president, therefore they cannot prove my opinion wrong. Is it then a fact that he is a bad president?

i think he is,

You are exactly correct. This statement is your opinion.

quote:

based on what he has and has not done for this country, but it's still just an opinion.

Here is where the argument breaks down. Rather than simply stand forth and exclaim that you think Monkeyboy is a bad president, you cite "what he has and has not done for this country" as your reasons for hating him.

What he has and has not done for this country would be facts. Not opinions.

Sinergy

ok, how about if i said it this way instead:

i think he is a bad president based on how i feel about what he has and has not done for this country, but it's still just an opinion. <italics added>

And just FYI, i don't hate him. i don't hate anyone. It takes a lot of energy to hate, and i haven't got enough to give to him. i do agree he should be tried for crimes against the citizens of this country.

david

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 10:27:21 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I said man hun not boy!!

2014 is 8 years from now.

Might he not qualify as a man by then?

FirmKY

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/15/2006 11:25:43 PM

dorsaisgirl1

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boys will be boys lol ........i dont think she was talking about his age but that is just my opinion LOL

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/16/2006 3:55:23 AM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dorsaisgirl1

boys will be boys lol ........i dont think she was talking about his age but that is just my opinion LOL

Spot on hun lol

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/16/2006 6:44:07 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trannysub007

i think he is a bad president based on how i feel about what he has and has not done for this country, but it's still just an opinion. <italics added>

That is an entirely different sentence.

I dont have any emotional involvement in what you feel. I tend to have issues when people express their opinions as facts.

Sinergy

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RE: Fact vs. Opinion - 11/16/2006 7:10:13 PM

KenDckey

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The problem that I see is that to many people state their opinions as fact.   for example

Republicans are...
Democrats are...

By lumping everyone together there is no latitude for differing opinions within those subcultures and a major loss of credibility of the poster.   But if a poster were to express their opinion as an opinion or belief or something that doesn't imply a factual basis, then they become credible and have an opinion.   I support opinions, regardless of whether I believe them or not, because it is the belief system of that individual based upon their lifes experiences.

I also think that facts are indisputable, but, can be misunderstood, misintrepreted or at times multilated. The sky is blue and the grass is green.   this statement of fact isn't true at my house because the grass is dead and I am color blind.   However, in their world, it might be true. Therefore, facts can be intrepreted based upon circumstance as well.

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