RE: Passively Denying Authority (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 5:04:08 AM)

I see alot of comments by sub/slaves that see them selves as having this issue or are/have worked thru this issue of Passively Denying Authority.  It would be silly to think that this particular problem orginates in one person's backyard.  Dominants need to be aware that their own behaviors can and do contribute to this problem.  Stating you have open communication and then closing the door because conversation is not what you want to hear... Stating you will make time to talk but never make the time... Stating you will listen to what they say but when it comes that time you allow yourself to be distracted on something as they talk.  Just a few examples.... We Dominants are part of the problem in achieving that authority we so apparently want... then again maybe we are sending a signal that we all want the authority when it's convienient to us.

Just some thoughts to put another spin on this thread.... Wasn't liking the fact that this thread was coming across as a submissive's problem.  It's Our problem.. submissives and Dominants.



Caitriona -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 6:15:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I see alot of comments by sub/slaves that see them selves as having this issue or are/have worked thru this issue of Passively Denying Authority.  It would be silly to think that this particular problem orginates in one person's backyard.  Dominants need to be aware that their own behaviors can and do contribute to this problem.  Stating you have open communication and then closing the door because conversation is not what you want to hear... Stating you will make time to talk but never make the time... Stating you will listen to what they say but when it comes that time you allow yourself to be distracted on something as they talk.  Just a few examples.... We Dominants are part of the problem in achieving that authority we so apparently want... then again maybe we are sending a signal that we all want the authority when it's convienient to us.

Just some thoughts to put another spin on this thread.... Wasn't liking the fact that this thread was coming across as a submissive's problem.  It's Our problem.. submissives and Dominants.


Thank you, Knight!  In order for something to not be a problem, both parties must work towards resolving the issue.

As many have pointed out, I can see these behaviors in myself.  I have a tendency to "keep things to myself" in the desire to not "burden" others.  I was taught at a young age to deal with things on my own.   This is an area that is taking a lot of work for me to be able to conquer.  But a huge amount of progress was made when I cried in front of him for the first time, which only occured months after we were married.  There are still some things that I have a hard time going to him with, such as my grief for the passing of my brother, but he encourages me to talk and share...to be vulnerable, which is very scary for me.  Even though my vulnerability is something I desire in this dynamic in order to make it work, it is not always easy to give.

I can also see the issue of "beating up" onself.  Even my mother will tell you that I'm harder on myself than anyone else could be.  It is difficult for me be allow His punishment to be the end of things and start correction then.  I am a perfectionist and it is so hard for me when I fall short of his expectations. 

Thank you for starting this thread.  It has been very enlightening.



agirl -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 7:04:49 AM)

I'm too selfish to do this with any degree of excellence. Maybe I'm greedy......but I WANT his thoughts on my thoughts, I WANT his guidance on my problems, I WANT to know what his view is on most things. I'm probably guilty of not being considerate....but then, he's the boss, he can change that ....if he chooses to.

agirl







kisshou -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 7:25:41 AM)

great thread kyra!

A way I used to try to passively deny his authority was to plan out the weekends. I would make a list and have the expectations that x,y,z needed to get done and we would spend our time doing a,b,c. Even by having expectations of how our time would be spent is a subtle way to try to plan out and control that time.

My wanting there to always be a plan is something he actively stops.

I might not be explaining this well and hopefully am not the only one out there that feels this way.

I would say things like "what do you want to do(so I could then plan it out in my head)?' or 'whatever you want to do is great, I will plan it out' hehehe 




happypervert -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 8:25:31 AM)

[fast reply]

I think passively denying authority can also be seen as a service,  so the line may be determined by intent. Earlier Kyra said she may not tell him she wants something and that he's really busy right now, so by going without she takes that burden of deciding about it off of him and makes his life easier. I don't see that example as a bad thing unless KoM always wants to hear about everything; there are times I am quite happy not to be bothered with things that aren't critically important. But as she described it, her intention wasn't to deny authority -- it was to make his life easier by not bothering him with it.

Similarly, this also raises a question about initiative -- for example, should a submissive worry about organizing a surprise birthday party for the dom because it is denying him the authority to decide if he wants to be surprised or not? This is a case of actively denying authority, but I don't see it as a bad thing either.

However, BTF mentioned cases where submissives withhold critical information about what makes them tick -- here the intention IS to deny authority, and that is a bad thing.



LaTigresse -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 8:31:29 AM)

Interesting and thought provoking from both sides of the relationship.

I can honestly say that I have never been in a relationship that I felt I could tell everything, it just was always a TMI for them and I have never been in a relationship that the other person would tell me everything. So this thread and all the different comments are really making me think.

Thank you Kyra.



juliaoceania -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 9:08:27 AM)

For me this is an issue of trust and of getting to know my Daddy.

The more trust that develops, the more I ask for his input into situations that develop in life. The more I implement what he tells me, and then it works out, the more I trust his judgment. This process takes time and work. I am still learning the boundaries of what he wants to know and what he does not want to know. He is not into micromanagement, and he does not want to know every little trivial thing I experience on a daily basis. He wants me to use judgment, he wants me to find solutions too. He does not seem to get upset if I find my own and implement them. I live 4 hours away from him so it is hard for him to be an active part of every choice and problem I have though.

He does get upset if I do not share my feelings, and this is not always an easy thing to do, especially the negative ones. For me (and note I said for me and not for others) I need time to process my emotions before I share them. I need to think about the source of them, it is not always easy to figure out. The last few days for example I have been extremely depressed and emotional, crying easily, feeling out of sorts because of an incident that kinda rocked me a little... He kept telling me it will upset me until it doesn't because I was denying how I felt. I was also projecting that on to different things in my life that were unrelated (one of them is being upset by certain things written here,...lol). He has told me repeatedly that he cannot deal with how I feel unless he knows how I feel...but sharing it is often difficult, and a learning curve is there. I will say that I have made leaps and bounds of improvement in this area because I trust him more and more all the time.

I withhold information not to burden him all the time, now if he reads this and finds that troublesome, he can tell me so. He has not scolded me for this before, so I do not know if it would bother him or not for me to outright say that I withhold information to keep from burdening him. It comes back to that micromanaging thing, does he really want to know? And if he doesn't then why am I telling him? It would be much different if we were living together, but we aren't. I think both of us would find it unworkable for me not to find my own solutions and for me to burden him with things that I have found the solutions for. It is the things that I have trouble solving that he wants to know about, not the things I have little trouble with and easily handle.



RiotGirl -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 9:38:02 AM)

I do see the passively denying his authority as well.  Never knew thats what one was doing. Like i said earlier, i think this is a great thread Kyra and i thank you for posting it.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 10:54:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I see alot of comments by sub/slaves that see them selves as having this issue or are/have worked thru this issue of Passively Denying Authority.  It would be silly to think that this particular problem orginates in one person's backyard.  Dominants need to be aware that their own behaviors can and do contribute to this problem.  Stating you have open communication and then closing the door because conversation is not what you want to hear... Stating you will make time to talk but never make the time... Stating you will listen to what they say but when it comes that time you allow yourself to be distracted on something as they talk.  Just a few examples.... We Dominants are part of the problem in achieving that authority we so apparently want... then again maybe we are sending a signal that we all want the authority when it's convienient to us.

Just some thoughts to put another spin on this thread.... Wasn't liking the fact that this thread was coming across as a submissive's problem.  It's Our problem.. submissives and Dominants.

Great addition, KoM, thank you.

One thing that helped me immensely in learning to share all my thoughts and feelings (I had been conditioned early in life to never, ever do that) is that Master always made it clear, "I may not like what you are telling me, but I need to know it.  I may need to correct it, but you should still always tell me.  I may become unhappy by something you say, but I still want and need to know it, and whatever it is, we will deal with it."  I recall at times I would tell him something and he would get angry by what I was sharing. My reaction to that would be "See? I shouldn't tell you these things."  He would explain that anger does not mean he doesn't want me, doesn't like me, is going to punish me (although it might, depending on what I have told him).  It only means he didn't like what he was hearing, and had to fix something.  But as long as I didn't argue, he would always clear the path for me to talk.  Even if angry, he didn't yell or hyperventillate.  In fact, he was the first person who made me feel safe, even if angry.

So you are right, KoM, the dominant can have a big affect on the submissive's ability to give over.



juliaoceania -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 11:18:29 AM)

If you took my post to seem to be saying that in other dynamics these behaviors are not somehow passively denying authority to a dominant that wants a submissive to submit these aspects of themselves, I was not suggesting that. I do not live with my  Daddy, we have a developing relationship, and it seems that these things evolve rather naturally so far in my dynamic based upon trust. I may have a different view of the matter if I lived with him or in a year from now. Not all s-types live the same reality, such as the expectation of not handling things on their own for example. It all depends on what each person seeks to control or yield to the other, and that was my point. I was just comparing the concepts to my own relationship and sharing my own experience, which is in no way shape or form better than or less than another in my mind…Or perhaps you were hitting fast reply…lol



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 11:47:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Dominants need to be aware that their own behaviors can and do contribute to this problem.  Stating you have open communication and then closing the door because conversation is not what you want to hear... Stating you will make time to talk but never make the time... Stating you will listen to what they say but when it comes that time you allow yourself to be distracted on something as they talk.  Just a few examples.... We Dominants are part of the problem in achieving that authority we so apparently want... then again maybe we are sending a signal that we all want the authority when it's convienient to us.

Just some thoughts to put another spin on this thread.... Wasn't liking the fact that this thread was coming across as a submissive's problem.  It's Our problem.. submissives and Dominants.
Good point.
I agree that the problem is on both sides usually; for myself, I sometimes have difficulty (at least in the initial stages of a relationship) deciding when it is I'm asking for too little and whether asking for more would be perceived as being "needy" within the relationship.    I do know that when I am seriously interested in/involved with someone, I do make the time and give him the attention/information and support he needs to do better in my service/care, if he is paying attention that is....  But don't want to go off on that tangent right now. [:D]  M



kyraofMists -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 4:47:08 PM)

Thank you to everyone for all the great feedback and the thoughts that you shared.  The things I listed are pet peeves for my Lord and things that I strive not to do.  Others will have their own way of relating within their relationship. 

I am glad that this thread was enjoyed.

Kyra



onlythewindknows -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 5:09:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Stating you have open communication and then closing the door because conversation is not what you want to hear... Stating you will make time to talk but never make the time... Stating you will listen to what they say but when it comes that time you allow yourself to be distracted on something as they talk. 


thanks, KnightofMists - i have run into this and i have found myself playing passive-aggressive games when i feel i am being blown off.  What is frustrating is if the communication has suffered minor breakdowns anyway, it is hard to tell if it is intentional or just plain thoughtless.



kyraofMists -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 5:16:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert
I think passively denying authority can also be seen as a service,  so the line may be determined by intent. Earlier Kyra said she may not tell him she wants something and that he's really busy right now, so by going without she takes that burden of deciding about it off of him and makes his life easier. I don't see that example as a bad thing unless KoM always wants to hear about everything; there are times I am quite happy not to be bothered with things that aren't critically important. But as she described it, her intention wasn't to deny authority -- it was to make his life easier by not bothering him with it.


I agree that some may find these things to be a service to them.  For me, it is just not my place to make the decision on what will make his life easier.  Others may enjoy that and appreciate their partner making these decisions. 

It comes down to knowing the person you are with and what they expect.  My Lord expects complete transparency.  However he does not micromanage alandra and I.  I have quite a bit of latitude to make decisions and handle issues in a manner that he expects, I just have to tell him about it. 

Kyra



kyraofMists -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 5:23:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think one of the other most common ones is "beating yourself up mentally/emotionally in punishment."


Yes, negative judgments of self... still working on that one.  That one is tough to get rid of for me.



BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 6:05:34 PM)

Wow, thank you so much for this thread.

Having only recently accepted what I've denied in myself for decades, and having just started getting to know a Dominant who I 'click' with... this is really hitting home with me. 

I am coming to terms with a lot, with regards to "me", and the issue of passively denying authority is one of my "demons".

Thank you to everyone who has been sharing...



Devilslilsister -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 8:28:25 PM)

quote:

Or perhaps you were hitting fast reply…lol


sorry!  i did hit fast reply!  But as to what you were saying, i do understand.  I dont live with mine anymore either and i started only telling things that i knew would be "positive".  Happy, positive, pleasant, w/e.  i also think that we just have a very odd relationship.  Mostly because i make it so and mostly because it is.  I think half of what i am doing is passively denying his authority, half of it is because its allowed (as what KOM was saying) and half of it because i am doing it on purpose. = )  Which means, i am probably denying his authority more then i mean to.  Which is probably too much for others to understand.  I am forcing my relationship to change (as i am changing) as i didnt like where it was before. 

Though i do think he wishes i would tell him more.  Yet, i am still uncomfortable telling him everything.  There are some things he doesnt need to know in my book.  Somethings, i am sure he doesnt want to know.  Somethings he hasnt earned the right to know. 

To make it more complicated, he's allowing it.  I think he also understands that to go back to the place where i told him everything, some things need to change.  He understands the set backs of our relationship, understands where i'm at (i think) and he's allowing me the time i need.  i think he also understands that we need to build trust, which is something that doesnt come over night. 

So for now, i have alot of free reign as i need it - working on building trust and i am sure i will eventually stop denying his authority.  Hate to say it but, i'm completey content and at peace with my life these days.  Who needs to change it?



Devilslilsister -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 8:29:51 PM)

quote:

Yes, negative judgments of self... still working on that one.  That one is tough to get rid of for me.


oooo me too!  but hey, everything is a work in progress eh?



patina -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 9:27:34 PM)

I feel that prior relationships be they vanilla or other can have an affect on how much you are able or willing to give control to your current Master.  My 21 yrs of marriage to a man who wanted no responsibility of any kind has made me very controlling and unwilling to give over easily.  I have a natural submissiveness in me so I am at war within myself all the time.  I am therefore Passive Aggressive a lot.  The Dom I am currently talking with knows this and understands it, and so is working on me giving over my control to him.  Thankfully he insists we take things very slow, so I do not feel threatened with him but the reverse.   
 
Through help of others on this site I have learned to slow down to not try and do too much on my own too quick.  Again I thank KoM for his help.


Patina 



darksdesire -> RE: Passively Denying Authority (11/13/2006 10:48:22 PM)

i agree patina, that past relationships impact our ability to let go.  My own previous marriage was one in which there was a great deal of rejection and criticism and i learned to keep everything hidden; thoughts, feelings, even events in order to avoid the pain of rejection and criticism.  It's been a process, learning that it is safe to reveal who i am, and what i am experiencing to my Master.  Over time, i've come to feel so grateful, so respectful of what i assume must be a very hard role for my own Master, and for other Dominants.  Being available, listening with acceptance, again and again and again, no matter what else is going on, has got to be a huge challenge and (perhaps burden?) for a Master or Mistress.  Still, my Master says he doesn't feel it as a burden, but rather as a responsibility he whole heartedly accepts.  My impression, from the responses of other's, is that many dominants do indeed accept that responsibility gladly.    

i  appreciate Knight's point, that the Dominants set the tone for facilitating this deep level of communication through their ability to be congruent with what they say  they wants and what they actually do.  It is easy for Dominants to state that they insist on and want this level of communication.  It is much harder for them to listen and accept no matter how busy, how tired, how irritable, how distracted..



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