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How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 10:07:44 AM   
MmakeMme


Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline 		Back in recent history we felt that our government and our society was being well-carried. We didn't have such jaded opinions of ... well ... everything. When did the tide turn? Why can we not accept ... well ... anything?

Suppose this Saddam verdict has nothing to do with the elections. Couldn't it have come when it was supposed to, in cosmic terms and not in political races? Why is everything a conservative or a liberal conspiracy (depending on which side of the fence you sit)?

Can you give other examples of how the tide has turned? What other current event has been turned into a political stunt by those who wish to believe so (however correct or incorrect the assumption)?

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 10:12:18 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Here is how cynicism is bred; 9/11, the world is in horror at the terrible events unfolding live on our TV screens. Meanwhile the UK government press department is circulated an email by one or other spin doctor, about how today would be a good day to bury bad news - ie release any data or reports that showed the government wasnt doing such a good job, because all the reports on that day would be concentrating on New York. Unbelievable, but true. Anything goes in the fight to climb the greasy pole and stay at the top it seems.

E

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 10:41:45 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme

Back in recent history we felt that our government and our society was being well-carried. We didn't have such jaded opinions of ... well ... everything. When did the tide turn? Why can we not accept ... well ... anything?

Suppose this Saddam verdict has nothing to do with the elections. Couldn't it have come when it was supposed to, in cosmic terms and not in political races? Why is everything a conservative or a liberal conspiracy (depending on which side of the fence you sit)?

Can you give other examples of how the tide has turned? What other current event has been turned into a political stunt by those who wish to believe so (however correct or incorrect the assumption)?


I think things began changing back in the 1960s-- the drugs and music and women's lib and the counter-culture further opened the door to cynicism (though I can't put my finger on what allowed them to blossom). It became okay to question authority, at least to a degree. The internet has done much the same in recent years.
 
Those in authority ceased to be role models and shining examples of morality.... instead we had William Calley and My Lai, and Nixon, and Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick, etc.
 
Politics have evolved from something noble to a game of gotcha.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 10:52:17 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Back in recent history we felt that our government and our society was being well-carried. We didn't have such jaded opinions of ... well ... everything. When did the tide turn? Why can we not accept ... well ... anything?

Suppose this Saddam verdict has nothing to do with the elections. Couldn't it have come when it was supposed to, in cosmic terms and not in political races? Why is everything a conservative or a liberal conspiracy (depending on which side of the fence you sit)?

Can you give other examples of how the tide has turned? What other current event has been turned into a political stunt by those who wish to believe so (however correct or incorrect the assumption)?




Corporate America happened with its deceptive advertisements "selling" us on every damn thing.. when you hear the media talking about "selling us on war", the pentagon advertising to us, the White House hiring pundits to push "No Child Left Behind" you begin to see what a racket it is and how everything is fair game to spin... revolting and it does cause a little jadedness. My recent examples tend to be with the party that has been controlling everything the last few years



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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 11:34:03 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I think the change has been caused by increased access to information over time. If I don't know of something I can't react to it. When all you had was the newspaper to go from it would be quite easy to create a cohesive statement, radio makes it more difficult, TV a little more so, cable more so, the internet is the death nail.

It's strange to me when I look back in our history and wonder why the people didn't rise up when the greatest injustices occurred not that we are jaded, but the most likely reason is most had no access to any more information than was printed in the local paper.

I think the change is good. The founding fathers weren't fans of government and tried to arrange things to protect the people from what they knew it could become and has become in some regards. We are just becoming distrustful of a untrustworthy institution.
That isn't being jaded that's the consequence of knowing even the barest minimum of the actions our government has done in the past.



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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 11:35:09 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme

Back in recent history we felt that our government and our society was being well-carried. We didn't have such jaded opinions of ... well ... everything. When did the tide turn? Why can we not accept ... well ... anything?

Suppose this Saddam verdict has nothing to do with the elections. Couldn't it have come when it was supposed to, in cosmic terms and not in political races? Why is everything a conservative or a liberal conspiracy (depending on which side of the fence you sit)?

Can you give other examples of how the tide has turned? What other current event has been turned into a political stunt by those who wish to believe so (however correct or incorrect the assumption)?


The people in this country have been manipulated into a furious bout of partisanship. And for some unknown reason, they just can't seem to self-project themselves out of this paradigm.

Michio Kaku’s analogy with regard to goldfish living in a two-dimensional pond bears great likeness to our current geo-political situation.

The analogy shows us that the goldfish only see what's happening in the pond, under the water. They are oblivious to the world above the surface of the water until something pierces it; then they react.

I believe a great majority of the people in this country are not much different than goldfish.



 - R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 12:20:53 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		How did this happen ? Money talks, that's how.

I was going to start another thread, but it's nice here.

My boss'es high efficiency hot water tank sprung a leak. A large and expensive tank. Looking for options he stumbles across these tankless water heaters. These, even though they require a 1" gas line are the highest efficiency possible. They only operate when the water is actually running. They have been made by Bosch and been in use in Europe for decades I am told.

Up until recently they were banned from importing it in the US. Why ? Energy company lobbyists.

Are you cynical about the stories of the water injection carberator circulated from 10-20 years ago ? Big car company supposedly bought all rights to the design and shelved it. Why ? Are you cynical that there might be a bit of cooperation between those who build cars and those who make the fuel for said cars ?

Big money always operates in it's own best interest. When they lobby, the politicians operate in big money's best interests. It can be difficult to determine their motives because we rarely get much information. Information on just how said actions will impact their particular business, and that is solely how they make their decisions. At least until they get so filthy rich that they decide to play around with politics or something. When you see their actions change, it is a reasonable assumption that their motives have changed, or something significant in their particular business environment.

On a more personal level, or to put it another way; the lives of average people, I am reminded of the words of Pink Floyd's "Wish you were here". Did they get you to trade ? Through control of the media they have turned alot of people into sheeple addicted to shopping. It is easy to see why, the "M" word.

Two resounding lines from Pink Floyd :

Do you think you can tell ?
Did they get you to trade ?

We can all see now that most change is bad for us. It's been said that times are always as bad as they've ever been. Dunno if I can really agree with the latter in every case, but the social changes at least are on a downhill slope, to say the least.

So just who are these changes actually good for ? Big money. Even by opting to promote certain music and other entertainment they seem to have gotten teenagers hot and horny, why ? They like overpopulation because of the demand it creates for whatever junk they are peddling. They also like children being raised by children because less intelligent people are easier to manipulate.

Do they care that this is crushing our infrastructure and making life harder on the common people ? Hell no, they'll pack as many of us into a sardine can as possible, as long as we can sweat and bleed enough to keep them rich. They have to make ever more money to hedge off devaluation of the dollar (at least here), and the thing is, it is they themselves who are destroying the very currency they crave.

That is how we got here.

Where are we going ? Well this is obviously a collision course. Nobody even thinks about this on election day, all they talk about are tertiary issues, don't even get it in your head that one of them might actually work to return to a sound fiscal policy. Don't even think that even one of them would stand up and say "I don't work for lobbyists, keep your money".

If you believe this will happen in the near future it is about time for you to start writing your annual letter to Santa Claus. OK, I would love to see it happen, but, well the tooth fairy doesn't visit me anymore either.

What can we do ? Now that's the $64 question, or in today's dollars about $322.05.

T

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 3:53:50 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		wellllll .... while I'm replying to "the terminator", it's really to everyone who has posted in this thread.

You are all right.  And wrong as can be.

I see all the things you guys are talking about, and sometimes I get angry, and disappointed, and negative as well .... it passes.

My reading and studying of history points to the fact that "the current" is always "bad".  The kids are terrible, and don't have the same values.  Society is corrupt and going to hell in a hand-basket, and all the politicians are crooked.

In 2006.

In the 1960's

In the 1800's.

In 2006 BC.

It seems to be a fact of human nature to feel like "now" is always bad and hopeless.

I don't think it is.

Compare your life with almost anyone else's through out history.

I actually think that we are on the verge of some technical achievments that will free up the human potential in ways that we can barely conceive of right now. 

Some of you have had the internet all your lives (adult lives perhaps), and can't conceive of a world where information was much, much more restricted.

I've always been an "info junky".  In my youth, I was a daily library visitor, and had subscriptions to the weekly newsmagazines, and read newspapers daily, and spent all my allowance on books.

Today .... the net is an unbelieveable smorgesboard of ideas, information, books, magazines .... it's incredible.  Not to mention the changes (for the better, in my opinion) in politics, human synergies and community.

But most now take it for granted.

Some of the things coming down the pike will make the net look like a a vaguely interesting side note to history.

One example: nano-technology.

Another example: the "Singularity".

Nanotech is becoming more and more mainstream, and has potentials that will make every man (and woman) a king, with almost unlimited access to material goods and health .... longevity that may mean that some people on this board today may never die.

Dunno.  Fate is sometimes fickle, and we could all go up in a nuclear holocaust next week, but .. overall .... I'm very optimistic about the future of man.

FirmKY


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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 3:55:19 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think society changed while Kennedy was in office.  You had to really look to see it.  His assassination hid much of it because the nation then focused on it instead of what was going on in office.

Not exactly sure what recent means...the last 100 year's?  the last 20?  What?

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 4:04:13 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
Michio Kaku’s analogy with regard to goldfish living in a two-dimensional pond bears great likeness to our current geo-political situation.

The analogy shows us that the goldfish only see what's happening in the pond, under the water. They are oblivious to the world above the surface of the water until something pierces it; then they react.
- R


You are the first person I have "met" who knows who Michio Kaku is.  :)

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/5/2006 5:23:20 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Political cynicism is like oral sex. Every generation thinks they invented it.

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 4:23:17 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
Michio Kaku’s analogy with regard to goldfish living in a two-dimensional pond bears great likeness to our current geo-political situation.

The analogy shows us that the goldfish only see what's happening in the pond, under the water. They are oblivious to the world above the surface of the water until something pierces it; then they react.
- R


You are the first person I have "met" who knows who Michio Kaku is.  :)


Actually, I've referenced him in a few previous posts : He's a brilliant dude with a very special knack for taking extremely sophisticated concepts with regard to science / theoretical physics and articulating them / breaking them down for folks with a rudimentary level of understanding. He's also very down to earth and non-egotistical in style. When I happen to receive advance word that he will be a guest on a radio program....I'll be there to listen. ; }




 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 11/6/2006 4:24:28 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 4:51:39 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		There's never been a golden age but the turning of human beings into commodities, units of production and consumption hasn't helped. Every human has a price and a cost value. Some are worth more than others. You only have to read these forums to see such a concept has been internalised and judgements are subliminally made about our fellow human beings. We are sold ideas as if ideas are products to be consumed. We have rejected complex thought for the gratification of the market place and we have become accomplices in our own devaluation as human beings.

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 7:22:56 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		I believe that the change began with Heir Guttenburg and the printting press.   Then expanded even more rapidly with Senior Marconi and the radio.   Although TV was round before, I believe WWII was the next big step in the evolution of political preception because of the use of the GI Bill.  The GI Bill taught our parents the value of an educaiton so we baby boomers became educated and enlightened in the ways of the world.

Now instead of teaching our children a skill or trade (i.e., farming or factory work) we teach them many skills (reading, writing, problem solving, etc).  Thus so enlightened they have begun to figure out how things actuallywork.   With the coming of age of the baby boomers in the 60's came radical change which continues to evolve.

I believe that tthe evolution isn't over and will continue for many years to come.

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 7:25:29 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline
quote:

Those in authority ceased to be role models and shining examples of morality.... instead we had William Calley and My Lai, and Nixon, and Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick, etc.


Yuuuuuuup - i was talking about this with my mother ages ago.  The american people have no role models.  Mel Gibson being drunk and insulting...  Bill Clinton sticking cigars in womens couchies.  Bad cops, bad politicians, government that is just about its self and money.

I want to grow up and be.....

what? 

Its a sad day when a parent has misgivings about teaching their child to trust the police. 

There is just nothing to look up to anymore

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 9:06:04 AM   
ToGiveDivine


Posts: 650
Status: offline 		I'd say the turning point was the 60's - the protesters got a feeling of power and decided to never let up.

What always starts out as a good idea is soon corrupted by people that want more and more power.

Big Business did it, so did the Unions, Political Parties, ACLU, Religious Organizations, Charities, Protesters of every flavor.

Groups start with a noble idea, but then the idea changes to survival and the good they did is marred by the mess they make now.



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These are my opinions - which may differ from your opinions. They may be right and just as equally wrong.

Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 10:07:29 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I think as modern communication has developed so has our jaded view on how information is delivered. I do not think anything has changed in the course of human history. People in power/wanting power try to control what and how is communicated to the masses. Whether Kings, big business, special interests groups, religious groups and anybody else, the information has always been filtered to serve the benefit of the people giving out the information.

I think we have just reached a point where there is so much physical proof that this goes on that the people who go to the extremes and often times into fraud or bad conspiracy theories have the feel of being more sane or credible because the boundary between the packaging of the real information and them is not that high. So to too many people the leap from being jaded about what you are reading and hearing to the Ann Coulter's and Michael Moore's believers of the world is not that big of a step.


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I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 10:25:54 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

My boss'es high efficiency hot water tank sprung a leak. A large and expensive tank. Looking for options he stumbles across these tankless water heaters. These, even though they require a 1" gas line are the highest efficiency possible. They only operate when the water is actually running.


I recently saw one of these. They are quite remarkable.

quote:

They have been made by Bosch and been in use in Europe for decades I am told. Up until recently they were banned from importing it in the US. Why ? Energy company lobbyists.


I didn't know this, but I can't say I'm surprised. 

quote:

Are you cynical about the stories of the water injection carberator circulated from 10-20 years ago ? Big car company supposedly bought all rights to the design and shelved it. Why ? Are you cynical that there might be a bit of cooperation between those who build cars and those who make the fuel for said cars ?


Yes, but I'm even more cynical about Big Pharma's control over the medical establishment.

If one were to examine a candlestick chart of technology over the past 500 years, you would see it explode into the stratosphere over the past 100 years, and especially over the past 50 years.

Yet if you looked at chart of medical cures of catastrophic diseases during that same time period, you would see a flat line over the past 50 years.

Polio was the last cure, and I believe it was in 1953.  

What's wrong with that picture? 

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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 10:56:33 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:


Those in authority ceased to be role models and shining examples of morality.... instead we had William Calley and My Lai, and Nixon, and Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick, etc.

RiotGirl:  Yuuuuuuup - i was talking about this with my mother ages ago.  The american people have no role models.  Mel Gibson being drunk and insulting...  Bill Clinton sticking cigars in womens couchies.  Bad cops, bad politicians, government that is just about its self and money.

I want to grow up and be.....

what? 

Its a sad day when a parent has misgivings about teaching their child to trust the police. 

There is just nothing to look up to anymore


Ok, wait a minute.  I usually don't reply to these political rant/posts, but RiotGirl (and who you are quoting):  This is a crock.

There are THOUSANDS of good role models out there.   And we Americans have 'em.  You and the other jaded "Oh my world is so bad poor poor pitiful ME" types just don't want to see them.  Or you confuse a bigoted, lackluster talent like Mel Gibson for someone important.

Here are 10 people off the top of my head I would be proud to have my child emulate -- ONLY a few -- and in no particular order, and drawn from no particular source:

Barak Obama
Jimmy Carter
Oprah
Michael Jordan
Sada Jacobson
John McCain
Tracie Dean
Tom Hanks
Ellen Degeneres
Dr. Antonia Novello

I just pulled 10 from my head, all living, heavy perhaps on politics and pop culture.  You might disagree with something about some of them, but I submit that there are 10 people there that any child would do well to emulate.  And those are only the (relatively) rich and famous.

Or you could find heroes by walking into any Manhattan firehouse and reading the names off the wall.

Whining about how bad the world is gets you nowhere.  Blaming someone or something else gets you nowhere (although from this thread it seems to be the pasttime of CollarMe).   Look around you, make an independent intelligent choice, and be someone, for god's sake.  Oh, and stop whining.

E.



_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to RiotGirl)
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RE: How Did This Happen? - 11/6/2006 11:01:45 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		The only difference is that in 2006 we've finally attained the technology to destroy ourselves--and in fact we're well on our way.  I'm not saying that we WILL destroy ourselves, but never before have human beings been capable of rendering the earth uninhabitable, and if we don't change our environmental policies, that's exactly what we'll do.  In 2006 B.C., the most anyone could do would be to wipe out a settlement here or there.

Many Christians avoid this unpleasant fact, because it seems to be at odds with the fundamental idea of a universe created for human beings to dominate.  But I don't see that recognizing the folly of our attitude toward the environment is necessarily Christian or anti-Christian.  If you believe we were made custodians of the earth, we're about to fail that test.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

In 2006.

In the 1960's

In the 1800's.

In 2006 BC.

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