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HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/13/2006 9:45:26 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Kucinich Introduces Paper-Only Voting Bill
Oct 5, 2006
On September 27, Congressman Kucinich, with 19 cosponsors, introduced H.R. 6200, the Paper Ballot Act of 2006.
The bill would "amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require States to conduct Presidential elections using paper ballots and to count those ballots by hand." It was referred to the Committee on House Administration and the Committee on Government Reform.
Specifically, the bill would amend Sec. 301(a) by adding new rules for presidential elections:
"(A) The State shall conduct the election using only paper ballots.
"(B) The State shall ensure that the number of ballots cast at a precinct or equivalent location which are placed inside a single box or similar container does not exceed 500.
"(C) The ballots cast at a precinct or equivalent location shall be counted by hand by election officials at the precinct, and a representative of each political party with a candidate on the ballot, as well as any interested member of the public, may observe the officials as they count the ballots."
http://www.kucinich.us/archive/home/display.php?src=k_20061005_cncre_onyybgf.cuc

I wish this could go through.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/13/2006 9:46:10 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Post #: 1

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/13/2006 10:32:25 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Kucinich Introduces Paper-Only Voting Bill
Oct 5, 2006
On September 27, Congressman Kucinich, with 19 cosponsors, introduced H.R. 6200, the Paper Ballot Act of 2006.
The bill would "amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require States to conduct Presidential elections using paper ballots and to count those ballots by hand." It was referred to the Committee on House Administration and the Committee on Government Reform.
Specifically, the bill would amend Sec. 301(a) by adding new rules for presidential elections:
"(A) The State shall conduct the election using only paper ballots.
"(B) The State shall ensure that the number of ballots cast at a precinct or equivalent location which are placed inside a single box or similar container does not exceed 500.
"(C) The ballots cast at a precinct or equivalent location shall be counted by hand by election officials at the precinct, and a representative of each political party with a candidate on the ballot, as well as any interested member of the public, may observe the officials as they count the ballots."
http://www.kucinich.us/archive/home/display.php?src=k_20061005_cncre_onyybgf.cuc

I wish this could go through.

Hi Julia....

Although I don't know much about it, I really like this bill. How could it not pass? How could an elected official convince his /her constituents that a verifiable, paper audit-trail was not in their best interest? I would think anyone trying to do so would be transparent- enough to be seen as a crook.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 2

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/13/2006 10:38:42 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

And yet the corporate media does not touch this story... and it should be news, should it not? I got a link to this from a friend on my political ID from Yahell. If it was not for that network of political activists that stay up on this stuff, I would be totally clueless about this bill, and that to me is unacceptable

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 3

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/13/2006 11:41:49 PM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

I am not opposed to this bill nor am I in favor of it. Although it has it's good points which are not disputable, it also leaves holes that have been fought over since voting started in our country - ballot box stuffing. Even this is not fool proof.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 4

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 12:00:21 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I am not opposed to this bill nor am I in favor of it. Although it has it's good points which are not disputable, it also leaves holes that have been fought over since voting started in our country - ballot box stuffing. Even this is not fool proof.

Good point. Why not have a machine that produces a paper receipt so there is a verifiable paper audit-trail. Why have the touch screen machines not been formatted in a way to provide the voter with a verifiable receipt that gives a summary of who they voted for? Why are they asking you to have blind faith in potentially compromiseable /corruptible system? Would you deposit money in the bank of your choice if they did not offer you a deposit receipt showing you handed-over cash to them?

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 10/14/2006 12:01:51 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 5

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 6:57:44 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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there is an alternative. vote absentee. then it is for sure paper.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 6

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 7:10:38 AM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

There is only one infallable system that I can think of. But then you won't be able to vote secretly anylonger. Line everyone up according to their vote and count bodies.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 7

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 8:13:03 AM

RazorJAK

Posts: 821
Joined: 8/5/2006
From: Manistee
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

there is an alternative. vote absentee. then it is for sure paper.

All well and good except for the fact that many places have been putting restritions on who is "allowed" to use an absentee ballot.

Coincidentally enough, those regions also seem to be the ones who're in districts with the highest density of "trailless" voting machines.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 8

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 9:28:33 AM

WyrdRich

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Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline

Doesn't do one thing to prevent ballot stuffing. The provision making Presidential elections a national holiday would even seem to make it more likely because those so inclined would have all day to drive around, 'voting the graveyard.' Put in a photo ID requirement and it would be worth something.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 9

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 10:46:03 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Doesn't do one thing to prevent ballot stuffing.

With a paper trail it is more likely that one will be able to determine if this has happened than with computerized voting... the computer eating votes or stuffing the ballot box digitally really is creepy in an orwellian sort of way. If you can think of some measure to stop ballot box stuffing, contact Dennis Kucinich.. one of the few "good guys" on capital hill... even republicans cannot find fault with his character and he would be happy to hear a good idea.... he is the only politician I have ever sent money to.

quote:

The provision making Presidential elections a national holiday would even seem to make it more likely because those so inclined would have all day to drive around, 'voting the graveyard.'

Wow, where did this come from? What empirical evidence do you have for this? Who are those who are inclined to do this? How many Americans are involved in your grand scheme of election stealing that they would drive from precinct to precinct to vote in elections that they have already voted for? Is it hundreds of people? Thousands of people? No people? I certainly do not know anyone devious enough to spend an entire day and gas driving around voting all day to turn the tide of an entire presidential election...it seems a bit far fetched... if you would take that kinda trouble to screw up an election you are probably inclined to take the day off to do so anyways

I would rather go to the beach after I cast my vote...

quote:

Put in a photo ID requirement and it would be worth something.

You mean another hurdle to casting a vote? You see the less people that actually vote, the more likely that republicans win elections... so the more people you discourage from going to the polls by putting ID requirements on them, making them prove citenship, making them prove they are residents, the more likely they are to stay home because most people do not vote anyhow. The more restrictions on voting, the less people that actually do it.... I have to give my name and address when I vote and they cross me off their little list... seems to work well where I live...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 10

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 11:24:45 AM

WyrdRich

Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline

      You need photo ID to cash a check, get on a train or airplane, buy something with a credit card and purchase alcohol if you look under 35. Are you suggesting that only Republicans are allowed to do these things?

     Yes, people should have to prove they are who they claim when voting. There are something like 12 million people in this country with absolutely NO right to vote. Do you want them voting for, oh let's say, Jeb Bush in '08?

      As for some evidence about how voter fraud is historically commited, I'd bet Sinergy could tell some interesting stories about how Nixon lost the 1960 race in Illinios from his studies of that complicated man.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 11

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 12:07:02 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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Seems a little Ludditeish (Hey I just invented a new word

). Here in Ottawa, local elections are counted electronically. You fill out your ballot and put it in a folder-like thing, they run it through a machine which counts it, and drops the ballot into a sealed container so they can be verified by hand later if need be. The end result is the election results are known within about 2-3 minutes of the polls closing. Any claims of irregularities can be quickly double checked, and to my knowledge there have been no discrepencies between the electronic count and a subsequent manual recount. Pretty damned efficient if you ask me, the whole election is over within minutes, literally, of the end of voting...none of the 3-4 week counting process in place in much of the world, but hey, to each their own (and its not like it really matters who wins an election, there isn't a whole hell of a lot of difference between any one candidate and another).

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 12

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 12:34:29 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

We have the same machines the last time I voted...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 13

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 12:55:50 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     You need photo ID to cash a check, get on a train or airplane, buy something with a credit card and purchase alcohol if you look under 35. Are you suggesting that only Republicans are allowed to do these things?

    Yes, people should have to prove they are who they claim when voting. There are something like 12 million people in this country with absolutely NO right to vote. Do you want them voting for, oh let's say, Jeb Bush in '08?

     As for some evidence about how voter fraud is historically commited, I'd bet Sinergy could tell some interesting stories about how Nixon lost the 1960 race in Illinios from his studies of that complicated man.

Your gripe about giving everyone a holiday to vote would somehow increase voter fraud... I do not know why you believe giving working people a day off to vote would cause widespread evil and corruption.. it is not logical.

I would take it is step further.. we should have 24 hours to voting period so that people who work have ample time to vote and are not denied because they could not speed from their job by 7 or 8 pm....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 14

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 2:01:02 PM

WyrdRich

Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline

No, I made a smartass crack about it. I have always been able to get out to vote regardless of my schedule and I'm typically working 14 hours a day for November elections. During the '96 election, the boss shut the whole shop down for 2 hours at lunch so we could go vote on the clock. There is also the 'absentee' option.

The Kucinich Bill does a nice job dealing with a potential source of vote fraud but doesn't do one damn thing about the kind of vote fraud that is real and present.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 15

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 2:30:46 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

In georgia my former dom had to do faith based voting on diebold computers... It may not be an issue for you, but for those who have to vote on them it is a big issue

Not every state allows everyone to vote absentee.

Personally I like Oregon's mail-in system....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 16

RE: HAND counted, PAPER ballots - everywhere - 10/14/2006 4:50:16 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline

The kind of voter fraud you are discussing wouldn't be much of an issue if everybody who was elligable to vote actually voted.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 17

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