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RE: An observation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 8:31:05 AM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

...

You didn't change. Keep in mind, they didn't either.


....




Thanks to Mercnbeth for a gallon of meaning from a spoonful of words.


Rock on, IB, (you right bastard!)


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 9:07:43 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		...makes me wonder if i start being all republican or religious whether people will still not talk to me..........lol

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 9:14:00 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I get the vegaries of humans in general, but I don't get it here in specific.

(in reply to IronBear)
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RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 10:10:02 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...makes me wonder if i start being all republican or religious whether people will still not talk to me..........lol


A political group of friends I used to hang with got all bent out of shape when I stated that I was going to have to think long and hard about voting Kerry because I wanted to vote for Nader... they acted as though I had lost my mind and went around chanting "Anyone but Bush"... I thought like Mercandbeth said, I hadn't changed, and neither had they... I was never a Kool-Aid drinker with a quick slogan, instead of selling me on Kerry, they found it easier to attack me. It made me quit the democractic party and go back to independent... I was never really a democrat anyways.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 11:01:21 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		The people who matter to me most are the ones who wish me well on my journey regardless of whether or not that journey keeps me travelling the same paths as they or takes me to places they will never venture.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 2:18:47 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		General Reply:

People tend to 'hang out; with those who are like them and those who think like them.  Take a look at all of the friendships and relationships in your life that have lasted, you will find that you all share the same base beliefs and ethics.  Whoever it is you are speaking of apparently feels that they no longer share your beliefs and have decided to distance themselves from you, not because you are you, but because they perceive you now (for whatever reason) as not being 'like' them.  Im sorry for your disappoinment if your feelings are hurt and I dont mean to sound callous.  But it happens all the time.  People come, people change, people go.  Not because theyre bad people, or because we're bad people,  but because they no longer feel a 'bond' with us.  I personally have distanced myself from people who were once in my life because I came to deem them as a person or people that I dont wish to associate with because we give nothing positive to one another any longer.  Doesnt make me or them right or wrong.  If you think about it IB, Im sure at some point you have also 'abandoned' someone that you once assoicated with.  no??

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: An observation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 2:33:03 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Be grateful you have the opportunity to see them as they truly are.



Maybe Im misinterpreting, but dont you think its kind of unfair to imply that there is something negative about this person, simply because they choose to not associate with another person?  We dont know their reasons.  Maybe the person is in love with IB and it kills them to associate with him, knowing they could never be married to him, so they had to cut him off. Ok...I know thats out there...but really... I mean...I dont get the assumption that the person has done something dishonorable because they choose to disassociate with someone, whether its because theyre Gor or Christian or whatever.  Maybe it causes them some kind of emotional pain, or conflict or second guessing of themselves, maybe theyre insecure, or disappointed or hurt, or confused or maybe the just simply dont feel like they have anything in common with him anymore.  This alone doesnt make a person a piece of shit in my book.  It actually makes them honest.  Who the hell would want someone who was 'pretending' to have a bond where one no longer existed?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: An observation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 3:33:31 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe Im misinterpreting, but dont you think its kind of unfair to imply that there is something negative about this person, simply because they choose to not associate with another person?  We dont know their reasons.  Maybe the person is in love with IB and it kills them to associate with him, knowing they could never be married to him, so they had to cut him off. Ok...I know thats out there...but really... I mean...I dont get the assumption that the person has done something dishonorable because they choose to disassociate with someone, whether its because theyre Gor or Christian or whatever.  Maybe it causes them some kind of emotional pain, or conflict or second guessing of themselves, maybe theyre insecure, or disappointed or hurt, or confused or maybe the just simply dont feel like they have anything in common with him anymore.  This alone doesnt make a person a piece of shit in my book.  It actually makes them honest.  Who the hell would want someone who was 'pretending' to have a bond where one no longer existed?


Marie,

No.

Our friends are diverse. They run the political gamut as well as being all colors of the rainbow in their relationship dynamics. The common ground is, as passionate as we are about whatever issue or relationship we chose to live, we respect each other. I interpret that the associates that IB refers to respected him as long as his beliefs mirrored theres, or those of the community. When he decided to move from them, all of a sudden he no longer was accepted or respected within the 'ecommunity'. Well, as I see it, that's just wrong.

I detest responding where what I don't know about the situation greatly exceeds what I do know, but taking IB at his word there is no excuse for his ostracizing. Further I think it shows not only the lack of integrity on the part of those who no longer accept him. There are many frauds in the world who stand behind a facade of friendship. I always thought it better to know them for what they really are. What better way then to see how they react to a change in you?

I'm of an opinion you never lose friends. Situations come up that indicate you just mislabeled some people who were better labeled acquaintances or associates. You can cite a religious conversion, a lifestyle conversion, or even a drinking buddy who goes on the wagon; if those decisions mean you can't interact with them any longer on a personal level, you only had an activity in common and didn't have a friend.

In this instance it appears that IB put more value in the relationship than Gor. Obviously those he directs the OP, were only interested in that one facet of IB.

Sure, I have become distant and haven't talked as often to people who I was close to in the past, if for no other reason moving from one coast to the other. However, we interact via phone and email and just because I moved to the land of "fruit and nuts" they don't exclude me from chatting about the Yankees with them. If they did, I'd view them in the same terms.

Again, a person's integrity is better determined when you disagree with them. I don't feel you should ever require a person to compromise that integrity to be a friend. If they ask that of you, you just mislabeled them.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 3:43:05 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...makes me wonder if i start being all republican or religious whether people will still not talk to me..........lol


Oh, they'll still talk to you, how else would they insult those two choices?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: An observation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 4:13:15 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Maybe Im misinterpreting, but dont you think its kind of unfair to imply that there is something negative about this person, simply because they choose to not associate with another person?  We dont know their reasons.  Maybe the person is in love with IB and it kills them to associate with him, knowing they could never be married to him, so they had to cut him off. Ok...I know thats out there...but really... I mean...I dont get the assumption that the person has done something dishonorable because they choose to disassociate with someone, whether its because theyre Gor or Christian or whatever.  Maybe it causes them some kind of emotional pain, or conflict or second guessing of themselves, maybe theyre insecure, or disappointed or hurt, or confused or maybe the just simply dont feel like they have anything in common with him anymore.  This alone doesnt make a person a piece of shit in my book.  It actually makes them honest.  Who the hell would want someone who was 'pretending' to have a bond where one no longer existed?


Marie,

No.

Our friends are diverse. They run the political gamut as well as being all colors of the rainbow in their relationship dynamics. The common ground is, as passionate as we are about whatever issue or relationship we chose to live, we respect each other. I interpret that the associates that IB refers to respected him as long as his beliefs mirrored theres, or those of the community. When he decided to move from them, all of a sudden he no longer was accepted or respected within the 'ecommunity'. Well, as I see it, that's just wrong.

I detest responding where what I don't know about the situation greatly exceeds what I do know, but taking IB at his word there is no excuse for his ostracizing. Further I think it shows not only the lack of integrity on the part of those who no longer accept him. There are many frauds in the world who stand behind a facade of friendship. I always thought it better to know them for what they really are. What better way then to see how they react to a change in you?

I'm of an opinion you never lose friends. Situations come up that indicate you just mislabeled some people who were better labeled acquaintances or associates. You can cite a religious conversion, a lifestyle conversion, or even a drinking buddy who goes on the wagon; if those decisions mean you can't interact with them any longer on a personal level, you only had an activity in common and didn't have a friend.

In this instance it appears that IB put more value in the relationship than Gor. Obviously those he directs the OP, were only interested in that one facet of IB.

Sure, I have become distant and haven't talked as often to people who I was close to in the past, if for no other reason moving from one coast to the other. However, we interact via phone and email and just because I moved to the land of "fruit and nuts" they don't exclude me from chatting about the Yankees with them. If they did, I'd view them in the same terms.

Again, a person's integrity is better determined when you disagree with them. I don't feel you should ever require a person to compromise that integrity to be a friend. If they ask that of you, you just mislabeled them.


Merc:

Thank you for your detailed response.   I know I came off a bit edgey, and I respect the fact that you didnt come at me in the same tone.

I guess I took something different away from IB's Post.  To me, it seemed obscure and all I could really put my finger on was that someone who IB once considered  friend, no longer wanted to be associated with him for whatever reason.  That was all I personally could discern from it.  And your response just seemed so critical of the hypothetical person that he was speaking of.  And it made me wonder why anyone would be that quick to make such strong statements in reference to such an obscure OP. That was what I reacted to.  On second thought, after reading your response here, Im sure you were supporting a friend and I probably would have done the same thing, even if the person being spoken down about was Mother Teresa.
In theory, I agree with everything about your beliefs on friendship.  Though associates in our lives do come and go.

Thank you again for taking the time to explain yourself.  I appreciate it.

marie.  

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: An observation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 5:30:00 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Mercnbeth and  Marie, Greetings and falicitations and many thanks,

Whilst I was in part refering to myself, I should note that this is a lesson I learned long ago at boarding school. It is just a part of human interaction. I left the OP somewhat vague because it came from a conversation with a friend of many years who had commented on the perceived ostracisation with oerhaps most of the people on the Gorean board (I still go their and will piss some off with my attendence but my posts will not change). However I was also thinking when I wrote the OP of several others here in the CM family who have sort me out for counselling when they to have fealt the pangs of perceived rejection and ignor. It was easier to use myself as an example (I'm big enough and ugly enough to deal with any negatives and I hop, wise enough to deal with them properly and with respect and decorum). I had hoped that this would spark a good discussion and even mayhap some inward looking on the part of many folk with even some outcomes of how they now view their own dealings with others.... On a personal basis I want to thank all who have replied. I have found one or two people who I would be proud to call friend and whom I had little contact with before. There are more here that I think highly of than the ones I prefer to stay distanced from.... As one of my ex mentors, peer group (gorean) and close personal friend commented to me "You can take the man out of Gor, you can't take Gor out of the Man" What may be seen as Goreanm in me is really what was their before i ever knew of gor and it was what called me to Gor. however there were and are things which needed to also be addressed my changes reflect the moves which I believe will address them. I know I am a hopless romantic in many areas and the Victorian Household will be the ideal place for this to grow and develope. I confess I have a romantic notion as I gather a few like minded people in my local of having the occasional Victorian Dinner or function using period dress. Subs/slave beibng refered as servants and such.. I am having fun putting together a new House Manifesto and a seperate Training program for subs and slaver. All is possible and all is positive....

IB


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: An observation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 7:47:16 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Mercnbeth and  Marie, Greetings and falicitations and many thanks,

Whilst I was in part refering to myself, I should note that this is a lesson I learned long ago at boarding school. It is just a part of human interaction. I left the OP somewhat vague because it came from a conversation with a friend of many years who had commented on the perceived ostracisation with oerhaps most of the people on the Gorean board (I still go their and will piss some off with my attendence but my posts will not change). However I was also thinking when I wrote the OP of several others here in the CM family who have sort me out for counselling when they to have fealt the pangs of perceived rejection and ignor. It was easier to use myself as an example (I'm big enough and ugly enough to deal with any negatives and I hop, wise enough to deal with them properly and with respect and decorum). I had hoped that this would spark a good discussion and even mayhap some inward looking on the part of many folk with even some outcomes of how they now view their own dealings with others.... On a personal basis I want to thank all who have replied. I have found one or two people who I would be proud to call friend and whom I had little contact with before. There are more here that I think highly of than the ones I prefer to stay distanced from.... As one of my ex mentors, peer group (gorean) and close personal friend commented to me "You can take the man out of Gor, you can't take Gor out of the Man" What may be seen as Goreanm in me is really what was their before i ever knew of gor and it was what called me to Gor. however there were and are things which needed to also be addressed my changes reflect the moves which I believe will address them. I know I am a hopless romantic in many areas and the Victorian Household will be the ideal place for this to grow and develope. I confess I have a romantic notion as I gather a few like minded people in my local of having the occasional Victorian Dinner or function using period dress. Subs/slave beibng refered as servants and such.. I am having fun putting together a new House Manifesto and a seperate Training program for subs and slaver. All is possible and all is positive....

IB



IB:

Thanks.   I hope I didnt derail the direction of your thread.  I guess I spoke more to a theory than to your personal experience, which Im not quite familiar with.  A genuine friend will always be a friend.  A person who associated with you for only one commonality will often depart if the commonality goes away.  I dont understand the Gorean references, so forgive my ignorance on that level.  I guess if someone departed based on the fact that you have shifted your beliefs, then they were only connecting with you on that mutual belief...which is an association but not a friendship.  To you maybe it was friendship, to the other person maybe it was friendship with a contingency...which at the end of the day isnt frienship afterall.  Either way, I meant no personal ill will towards you.  I was more speaking about a theory that I have learned as part of human nature in general.  I think I wasnt clear on your post completely also, which didnt help. I hope I didnt offend.  :)

marie.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 9:55:19 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hello IB,

It always saddens me to hear of someone making a positive change for themselves, only to receive rejection as a result.  In your case all the moreso as I've found so much of what you have to say thoughtful, honest and genuine -- qualities often lacking in online communities.  Mercnbeth hit it square on the head far better than I ever could and I hope that you know how many people respect you here.  Gratefully the world is bigger than the small shallow pond of cliquishness.

I look forward to reading more from you, especially as you begin this new development with your house. It's an exciting thing, to be moving forward in ways that better encompass what you really want out of life for yourself.  Best of luck to you and yours...  your words are always welcome here.

~Holly


_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 10:11:00 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Fastreply only because there's no one post I was answering:

IB, I applaud you for the courage of your convictions.  You clearly thought long and hard about what "path" you were following, and I for one would be interested in your story about how you got to where you are now in terms of adopting, then rejecting, Gorean thought.  Just let Me know where you post it as the Boards around here are exploding!  As holly said, your words are always welcome here.

Merc, your posts are so "on target".  What I take out of this interchange is that IB valued the personal connections he made with some of the folks that he met as followers of a belief; unfortunately some of those valued the beliefs over the friendship.  This surely is nothing new.  I am sure all of us have examples of social ostracism which we have witnessed, suffered, or -- if we are honest -- supported in our lives.  I know people who broke off friendships because someone they were close to (a) rejected Christianity (b) became too Christian (c) rejected Judaism (d) became too Jewish (e) switched political parties (f) became political (g) switched sexual orientations (h) became celibate...etc...  All too often, people cannot see that rejecting a philosophy or belief is NOT rejection of the adherents of that philosophy or belief.  But we personalize too much, and I fear it is human nature to throw out the sinner when he adopts the sin.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: An obversation on the vagaries of humans - 8/29/2006 10:25:08 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		IB,

Sorry to hear about your loss but glad to see you join the rest of us.  I think a lot of Gor stuff is cool but I dislike anything that smacks of "I am cooler because I wear this or that label" and to me Gor REAKS of that although I never thought you played that game at all.

Change is good.  I myself am spending most of my free time doing woodworking rather than wasting it on the internet which is why I deleted my profile.  Victorian dinners sound cool, let us know what you do with them and how they end up working, sounds like real fun!

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 35
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