RE: I need some clarification about objectification....

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porcelaine -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 4:52:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine I never feel helpless when engaging in rape play. Quite often the opposite is true and I experience a surge of energy and power watching the supposed predator take me. Perhaps it is the surrender in his eyes or the sheer wanton need that drives him in the first place. Either way I do feel in control and find it adds another dimension of pleasure to the play. porcelaine This is probably why I get off on denial more. I feel more of a power surge by NOT giving someone something they want.[:D] Precisely. I did forget to mention that I switch. That might have something to do with it as well. porcelaine

porcelaine -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 5:10:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross To start I will say that I lack something that so many subs seem to use humiliation and objectification to help deal with- guilt. I simply have never felt guilty about wanting what I wanted. I have felt bad about hurting other people's feelings sometimes, I used to be upset over my rape fantasies but then happily tossed that aside years ago when I realized I could enjoy my fantasy with no problems in reality, but no guilt at all over knowing and being who I am. So I don't empathize much with the experience of using force or objectification to make me free to be and do who and what I am. You have expressed many of the things I feel in a very concise way. I'm pleased that you presented a different outlook on the topic because it is possible to enjoy these things immensely without utilizing the experiences to escape former trauma or atone for supposed sins. I recall a passage from the Story of O that always stood out for me: "You are easy, O," he said to her, "You love rene, but you're easy. Does rene realize that you covet and long for all the men who desire you, that by sending you to roissy or surrendering you to others he is providing you with a string of alibis to cover your easy virtue?" I suspect that one's willingness to endure for an owner is somehow linked to a deeper need or craving for the very acts that we may appear to be opposed to. I am stimulated by the thought that my use pleases him. Even when it involves persons I may feel no attraction to. The voice in my ear and desire in his eyes is all the encouragement I require. porcelaine

ShiftedJewel -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 5:33:45 AM)
*(fast reply)* Wow, you people got way ahead of me, this is the first chance I've had to come back and read the replies in total. Thank you all for the input... and just an fyi Emperor... I was very specific... objectification AND humiliation. Ok, objectification is something I understand a little better then the humiliation. A lot of people here have touched on what I would call "light" humiliation or objectification... To further add to the confusion.. one of the things I am curious about are the people that have told me that they want to be treated "less then human"... to be yelled at, degraded, made fun of... the whole nine yards. I don't have that in me. I'm a very caring and supportive person, that and the fact that I just cannot do that to someone. In my mind that messes with their head way to bad. (<recovering verbal abuse victim speaking here) I have to admit that it seems to be very popular among both sides of the kneel. I just don't get the reasoning behind it. Do sub/slaves get in to it because at some level they are in denial and this opens the door for them to fully submit? Does it work so well because it gives them "permission" to be who and what they are? And in cases like that... wouldn't it be better to try and get them past the denial and the need for permission? *It's pretty obvious how confused I am, isn't it? lol* *Jewel*

Littlepita -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 6:47:00 AM)
quote: Being an object means you don't have to think, you don't have to stress, you just have to BE that object. You are there, purely and passively, for service and use. There's no need for you to interpret anything, no need for you to react, only simply to BE there. I love this passage LA wrote! I haven't yet had much experience with being an object. We are slowly going there and I find it very exciting. I'm drawn to the idea of just being what he wants me to be and not having to have a single say in what that is. It must be incredibly freeing. I do like humiliation. I love it when he calls me His slut, bitch, ect. It turns me on intensely. I draw the line with degradation. Of course my Dom could do that to me but I think right now it would hurt to deeply. He is trying to break me from doing that to myself.

ownedgirlie -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 7:43:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel I don't have that in me. I'm a very caring and supportive person, that and the fact that I just cannot do that to someone. In my mind that messes with their head way to bad. (<recovering verbal abuse victim speaking here) Understanding that your former abuse helps to shape your thoughts about humiliation, I want to say that the practice of humiliating/objectifying/degrading does not mean one is not caring and supportive. For example, Master cares about me so much that he WILL humiliate/objectify/degrade, because he knows its effect on me is something very positive for me. He knows I crave it, and at times, need it. As a result, he benefits from doing it, because it has softened his slave's rough spots, and causes her to cling and grovel to him, which he loves. quote: I have to admit that it seems to be very popular among both sides of the kneel. I just don't get the reasoning behind it. Do sub/slaves get in to it because at some level they are in denial and this opens the door for them to fully submit? Does it work so well because it gives them "permission" to be who and what they are? And in cases like that... wouldn't it be better to try and get them past the denial and the need for permission? These are great questions. I needed work to allow myself to be what I am, and it took care and attentiveness on his part to see that, and to know exactly what would help me get past my own denial. But it wasn't just one thing that helped me past it; it was a combination of the overall way he managed me. There are many things Master does to me now that I experienced as a child living in an abusive environment. Oddly enough (or maybe not so oddly enough), I came to crave those things from him. In part, was it a way for me to face them so I could no longer fear them. However, one of the responses I have when subjected to such things from him, and what makes me crave them so, is that coming from him, they are safe. Where my mother was unpredictable and out of control, Master is fully in control and administers certain treatments in a methodical, calculated way, constantly attentive to my reactions to them. For example, I was humiliated abusively a very young age. I was witness to my siblings receiving the same treatment. The first time Master called me something humiliating (which was rather mild iin comparison to where we go now), I cringed, and my eyes welled up, but then I realized it was *safe* coming from him. His words made me feel his power, and made me feel small to him. They made me love him and cling to him all the more, because I felt my submission more deeply than ever. His words allowed me to face humiliation in a safe and controlled environment. Knowing exactly what he thinks and feels about me, I know his intentions are never to hurt me, but to build me up. His humiliation of me has allowed me to form new experiences which replace the bad ones. He built up the level of humiliation very slowly, and now I find myself going absolutely wild with lust when he says or does what he says or does to me. Now it opens me up, and allows me to travel to the very core of me, and revel in who I am. Some people find a severe lashing to be liberating. A dominant could say he/she could never whip a submissive because he/she cares too much. Humiliation/objectification/degradation is, in my opinion, just another way of using/playing with/shaping the submissive. Some slaves beg for a hard whipping to get past some struggles; others respond to humiliation in such a way. Twicehappy mentioned in a different thread, that she was stuck once and begged for a whipping to soften her. In my case, a whipping would not have that effect, but being subjected to something severely degrading would. I hope that helps....a little??

JassWolf -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 7:46:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross So, the humiliation and objectification is a keen way for me to receive attention, which I love, while being passive about asking for it and simply being a pretty little butterfly that people are attracted to, rather than dealing with the harder ordeal for me of directly asking and directly being told to sit back and enjoy. A fine essay, LA, and much appreciated! You're succinct and precise on your motives and what-you-get-out-of-it. Have you given thought to your responses to 'humiliation and objectification'? Do your reactions, behavioral or emotional, during or after the event, differ in any significant way from other forms? Do you feel any different? About yourself? the one who is humiliating, objectifying? your sensations? Does it change the way you experience what follows? (I'd like to hear others reactions, too.) TIA, JW

twicehappy -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 7:50:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Twicehappy mentioned in a different thread, that she was stuck once and begged for a whipping to soften her. In my case, a whipping would not have that effect, but being subjected to something severely degrading would. What you say is true but on my part humiliating me would have only made me upset. Scooter whipped me in such a calm loving manner. I could feel him possessing me. If he were to have done so in a manner or with words that conveyed something along the lines of"you worthless bitch" i would have either been heartbroken, came back at him in the same manner or both. I can see how the humiliation would do the same for you however.

ownedgirlie -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 7:54:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Twicehappy mentioned in a different thread, that she was stuck once and begged for a whipping to soften her. In my case, a whipping would not have that effect, but being subjected to something severely degrading would. What you say is true but on my part humiliating me would have only made me upset. Scooter whipped me in such a calm loving manner. I could feel him possessing me. If he were to have done so in a manner or with words that conveyed something along the lines of"you worthless bitch" i would have either been heartbroken, came back at him in the same manner or both. I can see how the humiliation would do the same for you however. This goes to show how each of us is so unique and responds differently. Master uses what works for a particular individual, to bring out in her what needs bringing out. A former slave of his would only be hurt by humiliation, therefore he did not use it. It is interesting, our different responses, and what makes each of us feel possessed. Thank you for sharing your experience.

WhipTheHip -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 9:10:31 AM)
Hi Behind Mirrors, I apologize, I didn't mean to post my last message in capitals. I didn't think that function worked. > it's more that it puts me in a headspace that is not very good, and I get dissociative- I understand. I am familiar with DID. > It genuinely scares me (not in the thrilling way), Desensitization and psycodrama are not for everyone. Some wounds are too raw. > I crash, shake, throw up, and can't cope with it emotionally This is where your partner needs to hold you, cry with you, calm you, comfort you, and just lay next to you. > I know it is an entirely different thing, but my body reacts in > a stress response from the previous events Yes, I understand. There are flashbacks. That is what traumtic experiences do, they traumatize the person till the person no longer has control over their emotional response. > it's just really, really not my thing. Everyone's wishes should be respected. Some day, you may find desensitization and some sort of gentle psychodrama where you are in complete control theraputic, or you may not. Everyone is different. I agree with out objectification and humilation are different. I am into objectification, not humilation. I am really sorry what happened to you. I don't know if you have ever had therapy or if you have ever been prescribed SSRIs. but both are worth your consideration. There is a super book I can recommend to you. I need to locate its name and title. When things like this happen most people go through a familiar healing process that starts with anger and depression. With love, sorrow, sadness, concern, understanding, and compasssion always, Michael

ShiftedJewel -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 9:19:14 AM)
quote: Understanding that your former abuse helps to shape your thoughts about humiliation, I want to say that the practice of humiliating/objectifying/degrading does not mean one is not caring and supportive. For example, Master cares about me so much that he WILL humiliate/objectify/degrade, because he knows its effect on me is something very positive for me. He knows I crave it, and at times, need it. As a result, he benefits from doing it, because it has softened his slave's rough spots, and causes her to cling and grovel to him, which he loves. You are very right ownedgirlie... I phrased that very badly, didn't I??? My most sincere apologies if I offended anyone with the way that was said. Gosh don't you hate reading your own words and thinking... "what an ass!!"? I'll try and come up with a clearer way to state what I was thinking. I think my mind is to analytical... I do understand your reasoning, and in some parts of me it even makes sense. But the largest part of me still says the same thing. See, the humiliation and degradation I suffered during that relationship and most of my childhood isn't something I've ever fully gotten over. I can look at it logically and know in my mind exactly what it was, but in my heart or in the deepest recesses of my mind... it's still there. All I can think of when it comes to that subject matter is that it almost killed me several times and there is no way, even if it was something that someone craved, that I could do that to another human being. And again, logically I KNOW that I am a victim of the extreme and that it isn't always that way... So, I come here and look for the why's and how's it is put to use... what good thing does it do? Does it indeed help or does it feed a neurosis? I've noticed that these questions have spurred a few threads and I'm going to read those as well, but I have to say that when I started out in wiitwd too many years ago to brag about... I started out on the other side of the kneel and was quite content there until I realized that all it was doing was feeding into my "need" to be "punished" because of the abuse I had suffered most of my life and my idea that somehow I deserved it. Having traveled that road and transcended to the place I am now I can't help but wonder if that isn't happening to others that also feel that particular need? *Ok, that was pretty deep... I know it takes me a while to get my point across.. thank you for being patient with me.* *Jewel*

ownedgirlie -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 9:35:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel You are very right ownedgirlie... I phrased that very badly, didn't I??? My most sincere apologies if I offended anyone with the way that was said. Gosh don't you hate reading your own words and thinking... "what an ass!!"? I'll try and come up with a clearer way to state what I was thinking. Heavens, I was not offended at all, please do not worry about that. :) (But yes, I have thought that about some of my postings as well, so I can relate!) quote: I think my mind is to analytical... I do understand your reasoning, and in some parts of me it even makes sense. But the largest part of me still says the same thing. See, the humiliation and degradation I suffered during that relationship and most of my childhood isn't something I've ever fully gotten over. I can look at it logically and know in my mind exactly what it was, but in my heart or in the deepest recesses of my mind... it's still there. All I can think of when it comes to that subject matter is that it almost killed me several times and there is no way, even if it was something that someone craved, that I could do that to another human being. And again, logically I KNOW that I am a victim of the extreme and that it isn't always that way... So, I come here and look for the why's and how's it is put to use... what good thing does it do? Does it indeed help or does it feed a neurosis? I understand where you are coming from. I read a book a couple years ago, "The Four Agreements" and its companion book, but Miguel Ruiz. In it he talks about how each of us has our own "story." We see the world through the lens created in our own personal stories. This is why each of us reacts so differently to the same stimulus. Your story - your history, your current life, all the things that have shaped your mind and heart to form the opinions and intuitions you have now - is unique to you, as mine is to me. Your story gives you a gut reaction that humiliation is hurtful. And, it can be. Depending on the context. But what has been embedded in you is what causes you to feel as strongly as you do about it. You speak from the heart. You speak from your "story." The beauty is, you are also looking outside of that lens, seeking answers. I applaud those who are able to do that, since my "story" had me surrounded by a family with very closed minds, and who could not and would not attempt to look beyond. I do know what you mean about knowing logically what the abuse was and how it formed your thoughts. And yet still having difficulty comprehending why someone would consent to the same treatment. The only way I was able to fully recover from my past abuse was to face it in a new light, and experience it on this side of the safety line. I hope that makes sense. I appreciate your questions and thoughts on the subject. quote: I've noticed that these questions have spurred a few threads and I'm going to read those as well, but I have to say that when I started out in wiitwd too many years ago to brag about... I started out on the other side of the kneel and was quite content there until I realized that all it was doing was feeding into my "need" to be "punished" because of the abuse I had suffered most of my life and my idea that somehow I deserved it. Having traveled that road and transcended to the place I am now I can't help but wonder if that isn't happening to others that also feel that particular need? I think it is concern and compassion for others which drives your wonderings. This need to be punished is something I understand. It took me a long time to get over that, actually. It seems we all go back to what we know, whether it is healthy for us or not. Since all I knew was punishments, when things were going perfectly well (as a matter of speech; I know perfection does not exist), I would become restless and insecure. I never learned how to experience a GOOD relationship! So I would inevitably do something to rock the boat. It was never calculated as such, but all I could relate to was anger and reprimand, so when it all ceased, I was lost. Thankfully Master saw enough value in me to keep me and help me through it. We are both glad he did. It took a lot of work for both of us. BUT....that's a whole other story. But I did wnat to express that I understand where your concerns came frome.

popeye1250 -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 10:02:48 AM)
Just by reading all the above fine posts I can certainly see that "Objectification" and "Humiliation" are definately two different activities. Some like one or the other, some like both. As for humiliation it would be difficult for me to do that as a "kind" Dominant who protects and takes care of my sub but again the word "communication" comes up and if I find a sub who wants humiliation I would of course give it to her. It's just not something that (I) would normally do for (my own) enjoyment. As for "objectification" I really do like doing that. Using a sub for a "sexy decoration", playing "Kitty", and Pony Girl Training, which I've recently discovered, are all things that I really enjoy as well as a "service maid." Great posts in this topic! Thanks.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... (8/12/2006 12:23:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JassWolf Have you given thought to your responses to 'humiliation and objectification'? Only in that obsessively introspective way I think through everything else :) quote: Do your reactions, behavioral or emotional, during or after the event, differ in any significant way from other forms? I tend to go into myself much quicker and much deeper. It's not subspace- it's simply a still/calm LA-space. It settles me, puts me at attention, and puts me in a position of awe towards the other person in a way that makes other methods look like turtles. It takes me from my typical aloof/amused/enjoying self into a strip of cling wrap- fragile and exposed.

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