RE: Morals and Morality

RE: Morals and Morality (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

Kedikat -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 12:11:39 AM)
This is interesting but fuzzy. There are your morals, and then there is situational ethics......the two often collide within and without. You set your moral compass, but then take a very winding journey through life. I have my morals. But I have my survival instinct as well. The two are challenged by society and individuals. Depending on life at the moment, my morals can remain uncompromized. But those with different or no morals can force me to change the balance of morals and survival. I meet a lot of people from and in different lands. They often operate on what I might consider poor morals. But if they did not, they would be dead. Sometimes it is an almost palpable sigh of relief from them when they realize they can shift to their higher moral standards around me and the situation. But they don't let their guard down too far. Morals, ideals, law and justice. We carve them in stone on beautiful monuments. Look wistfully up at them as we pass by in our lives.

NorthernGent -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 12:27:26 PM)
meatcleaver: Your quote: In an ideal world there wouldn't be a need for government. 'In an ideal world the world would have a governing body that acted out of a desire to civilise the world and lay the foundations for us to co-exist in peace.' Once the British government nationalised the Empire and encouraged duty to the Empire and its peoples, to stop the corruption of private companies that built the Empire, this is exactly what it tried to do. At the time it was seen as highly moral and ethical thing to do. You have said in another thread that the British Empire is something to be ashamed of, yet you say in an ideal world you believe in its objectives. The problem you have is that while you think you know what is moral today, it may not be moral tomorrow. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't keep telling me what my problem is, especially when you clearly don't understand where I'm coming from. I'll explain for you: The British Empire was a shameful period in British history. However, this opinion is not inconsistent with believing in the principles of Government. The British Empire represents Government corruption at its worst. Yet, this is not Government in theory or principle but corruption in practice - the two are not one and the same. As a species, we have achieved most if not everything through collective organisation. When I say I advocate Government I mean in the sense that for the purposes of civilisation, as a species, we need an elected body with the job of civilising society through education. I agree with you entirely that we have a serious problem with Government corruption. I have read your posts more carefully recently and I think we agree on most things. Where we disagree is as follows: You have lost faith (or you never had any faith) in Government. I have faith in Government despite what we are seeing going on around us. Put simply, I believe that, in the future, we will have Governments that act in the interests of our well being as opposed to their own self-interest. Ultimately, Governments are a reflection of us, we vote for them, we get what we deserve and blaming Bush and Blair is the get out of jail free card as it is only because we allow them to get away with what they are doing that they can do it. If you are pissed off about what our Government is doing (you seem to be) then the way to resolve it is to join a party and help the party rediscover its values rather than this corrupted form of self-interest. A Government is simply an elected body that represents and educates us during the evolutionary path. If we want a Government that acts in our best interests and lays the foundations for us to co-exist in peace then you need to strive for it because, if a significant proportion of the population sit on the sidelines and squander their vote, the result will be Blair and many more like him. It follows that if you have lost all faith in Government you have lost all faith in the principles of democracy - if we do not exercise out votes then we do not live in a democracy - simple as that. Regards

meatcleaver -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 12:38:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The British Empire represents Government corruption at its worst. This is not true, though there is a lot I wouldn't defend about the British Empire but one has to judge its actions through the imagination of the world at the time. Many of the policies of the British Government once it had taken over administration of the Empire from private companies was for what it saw as the benefit of the peoples of the empire. It is easy for us to sit here in judgement of them from our particular time when colonialism is unfashionable and denounce them all. You talk about principles of government as though they are timeless and carved in stone, they are not, they are fashionable to a particular section of political activists who might well be denounced as corrupt in 50-100 years time. Not even the ten commandments are carved in stone though you will have many people saying they are.

meatcleaver -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 12:42:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent You have lost faith (or you never had any faith) in Government. I have faith in Government despite what we are seeing going on around us. Governments are about power and balancing self interest groups in society to the benefit of its backers. A good government keeps all the balls in the air. A certain amount of corruption is lubrication but too much is a cancer. We will rarely see the nods and winks but we all know they happen, simply because people are people.

NorthernGent -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 1:20:43 PM)
meatcleaver, Agreed - imperialism was the order of the day. They were all at it. However, to suggest the British Empire was a benelovent force is madness. The benefits of industrialisation that parts of the world gained though British occupation was merely a by-product of the real purpose of the British Government being there i.e. gaining markets and income. When the British Empire was in its pomp a significant proportion of its own people were starving to death - if the British Government would exploit its own people in such a manner what makes you think it wouldn't do it in Africa or India etc? The principle of Government I have talked about in my earlier posts is this - the over-riding principle that Government is meant to be an elected body that acts in the interests of all of its citizens. Are you saying this is not true? I agree that in practice we are not getting this form of Government as we are only so far down the evolutionary path and as a society we don't have the education to understand how manipulated we are. Hence, the comment that if we want a Government that cares about social justice then the people that understand the responsibilities of Government have to take the lead and strive for it rather than blame Bush and Blair and walk away (and in the process completely disenfranchise ourselves). I suppose this is the mark of the left - we haven't lost faith in individuals - we believe that we are merely going through a bad patch and, at some point in the future, we will see the light and organise to strive for what humans need out of life rather than the slaughter that is currently going on. Your last quote is interesting. In previous posts you put all faith in the individual but no faith in individuals binding together to achieve as a collective organisation i.e. an elected body/Government. In your last post you say "people are people" and you equate this with nods and winks - are you saying here that you believe people are inherently corrupt? If so, it follows you are saying you have no faith in individuals which is contradictory to earlier posts (some clarity would help here). If you geuinely believe humans are inherently corrupt then you have my sympathy as it's a doomsday scenario. Again, the mark of the left is the belief that we are conditioned/corrupted to act out of self-interest but given the foundations to bloom we will return to our natural state. Regards

NorthernGent -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 1:35:07 PM)
meatcleaver, To add, correct me if I'm wrong here but did you say you were once involved in left-wing politics and you walked away because of councils in your area? If we dwelled on the things that are going on around the globe we would all walk away. The trick is to keep chipping away for what you believe in and not let the corruption of others taint your core values. If you're pissed off with Blair and the slaughter that the British Government drags us into then you will never help resolve it by walking away and disenfranchising yourself. The principles of the Labour Party are exactly the opposite to what the British Government is doing at the moment - if you care so much about the injustice (and I think you do genuinely care) then join the one party that has core values that vehemently oppose this - help return it to its true position rather than this pseudo-Tory version under the grip of Blair and his cronies. Regards

IronBear -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 2:34:55 PM)
Sad to see you say that the British Empire was a shameful period in British history. But that is just the opinion of one very old fashion pro Empire Aussie born Aristocrat.. However my motto below my siggy means exactly what it says ..

NorthernGent -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 2:48:19 PM)
Ironbear, Well, the current US Government, the one most of us seem to have problems with on this board, is merely a modern day version of the British Empire. Whether it's colonisation of land or economic colonisation it's still colonisation borne out of self-interest. The US are carrying the baton so to speak. The British Empire had a very good go at slaughtering people in various lands and were the pioneers of concentration camps - sounds like our friends from the US. Regards

IronBear -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 2:53:55 PM)
Countries grow up and the US is still a young country. They have yet to mature.. But I still believe in the glories of the Empire right or wrong.. My view none need agree.. I simply have a different view of world afairs and what I feel should be and what shouldn't be..

NorthernGent -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 3:01:22 PM)
Ironbear, Ahh well, I'm not one to lecture a wiser head than mine but to say that it's "my view and none need agree" and explaining it as simply a different view smacks of, in this instance, operating with a closed mind. All the primary sourced evidence regarding the British Empire is there for all to see in history books. India, Africa, Ireland and your own country. As said, the British Government in the heyday of empire starved its own people so I wouldn't hold out much faith that they had much concern for the citizens of other countries. Regards

twicehappy -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 3:56:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear The "Eye For an Eye" philosophy can I feel be separated into two groups. group one is emotionally charged and is labeled Revenge. Those of us who have either a family or cultural history of feuding and taking revenge, (Sicilian and Celts come to mind here) such actions are justice for them Lol, i am half Irish and half German..... quote: The second group which as a Pagan Priest with hereditary ties into Druidism, I agree with, know and understand may be seen as Debt Payment. Everything we do has a price. Sooner or later we all must pay the price for our actions. There must be a balance in all aspects and forma of life, death and growth.... Agreed, though the price was not always blood for blood, sometimes the ancient price was in coin or goods and if there was a child orphaned or made fatherless that included provisions for the fosterage or welfare of the child. And now to do a Benji and hijack your thread, a old Gaelic song i thought you would enjoy as a Celt and a Druid. Song of Amerigin (translated by Graves [15]): "I am a stag: of seven tines, I am a flood: across the plain, I am a wind: on a deep lake, I am a tear: the Sun lets fall, I am a hawk: above the cliff, I am a thorn: beneath the nail, I am a wonder: among the flowers, I am a wizard: who but I Sets the cool head aflame with smoke? I am a spear: that roars for blood, I am a salmon in a pool, I am a lure: from Paradise, I am a hill: where poets walk, I am a boar: ruthless and red, I am a breaker: threatening doom, I am a tide: that drags to death, I am an infant: who but I Peeps from the unhewn dolmen arch? I am the womb: of every holt, I am the blaze: on every hill, I am the queen: of every hive, I am the shield: for every head, I am the tomb of every hope."

twicehappy -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 4:07:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Countries grow up and the US is still a young country. They have yet to mature.. But I still believe in the glories of the Empire right or wrong. I applaud you IB for you belief and faith in your country. Yes as a nation my country is still young and growing. Yes we often do wrong yet daily i wonder at all we have done right. I stand by my country as you do yours. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The British Empire had a very good go at slaughtering people in various lands and were the pioneers of concentration camps - sounds like our friends from the US. Watch your tongue.......

gooddogbenji -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 4:20:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The British Empire had a very good go at slaughtering people in various lands and were the pioneers of concentration camps - sounds like our friends from the US. Watch your tongue....... Despite "concentration camp" as a term now being used negatively, its original meaning is a prison camp where a certain group of undesirables was kept under watch. The British started this during the Boer wars, and it is an idea that is still used. The conditions which the Nazis created in their concentration camps is by no means the norm, as both America and Canada kept foreigners, especially Germans and Japanese, in these as well. America has, through Guantanamo Bay and various prisons in Iraq, created concentration camps, where groups of individuals are kept without the usual process of trial. That does not mean treatment is inhumane (necessarily) but it simply means that groups are being kept there, which few will dispute. Yours, benji

twicehappy -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 4:36:08 PM)
Damnit benji you are supposed to interject with smartass not facts, we love the pup.........

gooddogbenji -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 4:38:19 PM)
Sorry.... I was just sitting there, watching my tongue do its thing, and got bored. So I decided to post something, but, being exhausted from staring at my tongue, I couldn't think of smartass, so I posted facts. It won't happen again. Yours, benji

IronBear -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 4:51:22 PM)
quote: Song of Amerigin (translated by Graves [15]): "I am a stag: of seven tines, I am a flood: across the plain, I am a wind: on a deep lake, I am a tear: the Sun lets fall, I am a hawk: above the cliff, I am a thorn: beneath the nail, I am a wonder: among the flowers, I am a wizard: who but I Sets the cool head aflame with smoke? I am a spear: that roars for blood, I am a salmon in a pool, I am a lure: from Paradise, I am a hill: where poets walk, I am a boar: ruthless and red, I am a breaker: threatening doom, I am a tide: that drags to death, I am an infant: who but I Peeps from the unhewn dolmen arch? I am the womb: of every holt, I am the blaze: on every hill, I am the queen: of every hive, I am the shield: for every head, I am the tomb of every hope." This I use and have used at many rites wher the God is Evokes/Invoked (depending of who and what is present and/or happening) Ancestorally: Father ~ Scots/Irish. Mother ~ Prussian/Dansk I guess the Celtic/Norse blood runs true (will not mention beserkers)....

IronBear -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 5:00:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Ironbear, Ahh well, I'm not one to lecture a wiser head than mine but to say that it's "my view and none need agree" and explaining it as simply a different view smacks of, in this instance, operating with a closed mind. All the primary sourced evidence regarding the British Empire is there for all to see in history books. India, Africa, Ireland and your own country. As said, the British Government in the heyday of empire starved its own people so I wouldn't hold out much faith that they had much concern for the citizens of other countries. Regards I have never denied what is in the History books. However this doen not stop my love of the old empire and desire to see her return to glory and power again even though I know she can not... Ther is a vast difference in reing realistic and yet having passions for a bygone era where so much family is intriscialy bonded and to blood sworn loyalties.. Had you really looked at thye first two lines of my Motto: My Life for my Queen My Soul for my Goddess My Heart for my Lady And my Honor for myself You may have twigged where my loyalties and duties lay... However as always it is indeed a pleasure to converse and in a gentlemanly manner, cross swords with you.....

twicehappy -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 6:47:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear This I use and have used at many rites wher the God is Evokes/Invoked (depending of who and what is present and/or happening) Ancestorally: Father ~ Scots/Irish. Mother ~ Prussian/Dansk I guess the Celtic/Norse blood runs true (will not mention beserkers).... I learmed this at my grans knee but i keep the sight where it is posted on favorites. She was priestess/mother(23 children of her own) of my clan and also the local midwife, she delivered every baby for about 100 miles around back in the hills i was born in, i learned the basics of nursing at her side. Her fertility was much respected and admired. When she invoked the gods/goddesses her opening cry was always " Mother Hear Me". I use the same. Even though the green hills were West virginia instead of her home i still heard the pipes in my head, still do, be well, twice

jezabelKH -> RE: Morals and Morality (7/31/2006 8:54:00 PM)
i hope you learn and grow from this lesson. bye they way you might want to create a new profile since you no longer are owned by Master KH

NorthernGent -> RE: Morals and Morality (8/1/2006 5:12:45 AM)
benji: Your quote: America has, through Guantanamo Bay and various prisons in Iraq, created concentration camps, where groups of individuals are kept without the usual process of trial. That does not mean treatment is inhumane (necessarily) but it simply means that groups are being kept there, which few will dispute. Two crucial points to add: 1) These people are being held without any sort of trial. 2) There is considerable evidence to suggest these people are being tortured. Regards

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.03125