The Smiling Submissive? (Full Version)

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JassWolf -> The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 6:43:25 PM)

I spend a lot more time reading than posting, but I have an observation and want to try it out ... whaddya think about this:

I think I've noticed a higher value being placed on unpleasant service by dom/mes, and even more so by submissives, than on tasks that are enjoyable. The implication seems to be that submission is more valuable or worthy because the task was something unpleasant.

So I'm wondering: do we place value on the service of a submissive who is doing something s/he loves? If so, do we place as much value on that service as we do on fulfilling a task that is dreaded?

Do submissives value their own obedience, no matter what they think of the chore? Do their Dom/mes?

Or, is the submissive's opinion concerning the task just irrelevant? 

I think the opinion of submissives on this could be interesting, but I'm eager to hear what Dom/mes think too.

TIA.
JW 



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 6:49:42 PM)

I personally do not think it is more valuable or worthy if it is unpleasant..It just simply makes more of an impression or statement....Tempting



Sasy -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 6:57:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JassWolf

I spend a lot more time reading than posting, but I have an observation and want to try it out ... whaddya think about this:

I think I've noticed a higher value being placed on unpleasant service by dom/mes, and even more so by submissives, than on tasks that are enjoyable. The implication seems to be that submission is more valuable or worthy because the task was something unpleasant.

So I'm wondering: do we place value on the service of a submissive who is doing something s/he loves? If so, do we place as much value on that service as we do on fulfilling a task that is dreaded?

Do submissives value their own obedience, no matter what they think of the chore? Do their Dom/mes?

Or, is the submissive's opinion concerning the task just irrelevant? 

I think the opinion of submissives on this could be interesting, but I'm eager to hear what Dom/mes think too.

TIA.
JW 




Only rare things I have seen that truly bothered me to do... But there were more things I found I could take pride in doing and doing to my  best ability..... Sometimes I dont much care what they ask I will do it, sometimes knowing that no matter how I feel about it is most likly a lesson in the making. I am sure there is something in time I may well draw the line at ( I hope I never have to  feel  that tho) I am not mindless far from it I would say but in submission as in LIFE  there are always things we find distaste in but have to  do  them no matter how we feel.... Cleaning a bathroom that two males share is my  GAWDS I DONT WANNA DO THIS ...  and then I drag out the cleaning supplies



Cloudz -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 7:00:26 PM)

Hello,

In my experience I definately prefer a submissive doing somehting with a happy heart. I love doing WIITWD, and prefer my submissive to be happy in service as well.



missturbation -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 7:07:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JassWolf

I spend a lot more time reading than posting, but I have an observation and want to try it out ... whaddya think about this:

I think I've noticed a higher value being placed on unpleasant service by dom/mes, and even more so by submissives, than on tasks that are enjoyable. The implication seems to be that submission is more valuable or worthy because the task was something unpleasant.

So I'm wondering: do we place value on the service of a submissive who is doing something s/he loves? If so, do we place as much value on that service as we do on fulfilling a task that is dreaded?


Do submissives value their own obedience, no matter what they think of the chore? Do their Dom/mes?

Or, is the submissive's opinion concerning the task just irrelevant? 

I think the opinion of submissives on this could be interesting, but I'm eager to hear what Dom/mes think too.

TIA.
JW 



In my opinion the value of something i dislike doing may be a little higher than that of something i enjoy just purely because it takes more on my part to complete tasks i dislike and my Sir would see what an effort i was making to please him.



ownedgirlie -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 7:23:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
In my opinion the value of something i dislike doing may be a little higher than that of something i enjoy just purely because it takes more on my part to complete tasks i dislike and my Sir would see what an effort i was making to please him.


Exactly.

Some of the things he has had me do have been quite difficult and unpleasant.  He loves to see the effort it takes for me to get through what I must.  Mind you, complaining through it will not be tolerated.  While he loves the joy I demonstrate in happily serving, he finds great value in the effort I make, complete with the mental struggle I go through in working to please him.

I think there is a difference between "enduring" and making an effort to willingly please.



popeye1250 -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 7:26:58 PM)

Missturbation, well put!



Tamerofwild1s -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 7:31:55 PM)

*steps in to offer my opinion*
 
the values here can be seen differently
 
I value my slaves service .... if she does things that are unpleasent or dreaded, then it makes me smile for the fact she would go the extra yard. one thing some subs/slaves forget is that we as Dom/mes sometimes ask you to things that are dreaded for the reason of growth . helping you to grow in areas you might not normally grow yourself ..... and when you are willing to go there .. well thats a great thing. I know I personally smile a mile when my girl does things for me that she wouldn't normally do because I know I have helped her to grow as a human being and a slave
 
of course as always this is just my opinion



mp072004 -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 7:41:03 PM)

When the activity is the thing, the pleasure of the submissive is irrelevant. If he or she likes it, fine, if he or she doesn't, also fine. This occurs both in play and in service. If I want to hit a person, the person is hit just as much if he or she likes it. Similarly, if I want my floor cleaned, it doesn't get any less clean if it's cleaned by a person who enjoys the work.

However, if I want to cause discomfort or unpleasantness, or if obedience to undesirable commands is the goal, then the reactions of dislike and displeasure are the important thing, and the means doesn't matter. If a man really doesn't want me to give him a blowjob and I do it, and he reacts as though he doesn't like it, then I'm happy.

Monica



Sunshine119 -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 8:37:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JassWolf

So I'm wondering: do we place value on the service of a submissive who is doing something s/he loves? If so, do we place as much value on that service as we do on fulfilling a task that is dreaded?


I HATE cleaning, but it is my sole responsibility.  Don't think His Highness much cares one way or another how I feel about it and I don't think He places as much value on that as serving him in many other ways.  (I suspect He would be very displeased if it DIDN'T get done however)

quote:

Do submissives value their own obedience, no matter what they think of the chore? Do their Dom/mes?

Concerning the dreaded cleaning mentioned above?  I don't value my obedience when I am doing it, only after it has been accomplished. (But I still like serving him in other ways, both sexually and domestically, better)

quote:

Or, is the submissive's opinion concerning the task just irrelevant?

ah....yup

HOUSEWORK SUCKS!!!!! (as I prepare to spend my day tomorrow cleaning and scrubbing floors...yuck)



DiurnalVampire -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 8:45:48 PM)

So I'm wondering: do we place value on the service of a submissive who is doing something s/he loves? If so, do we place as much value on that service as we do on fulfilling a task that is dreaded?

I place equal value on all of the tasks my boys do. I prefer them to actually enjoy their service, but expect them to complete the unpleasant stuff with as much care to detail as they do the things they love. 

Do submissives value their own obedience, no matter what they think of the chore? Do their Dom/mes?
I defiantely value obedience.  I have dimissed plenty of potential pets becasue their idea of obedience and mine didnt coincide.  I dont ask much, I dont bark orders all the time, but when I do make a request I expect it done, done quickly and done well.

Or, is the submissive's opinion concerning the task just irrelevant?  Absoultely not.  Their opinion is relavent.  They can share it, if they choose.. however that doesnt mean they get out of it... just that I know how they feel about it.  If it is that unpleasant, usually I will let them slide and try not to have them repeat it. But, if its a minor thing, like they just find it tedious... they wil learn to deal.

My 2 cents
DV



BitaTruble -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 10:48:13 PM)

quote:


I think I've noticed a higher value being placed on unpleasant service by dom/mes, and even more so by submissives, than on tasks that are enjoyable. The implication seems to be that submission is more valuable or worthy because the task was something unpleasant.

So I'm wondering: do we place value on the service of a submissive who is doing something s/he loves? If so, do we place as much value on that service as we do on fulfilling a task that is dreaded?


To me, the value is the same. Service is service. It is more pleasant to go grocery shopping than it is to scrub out the toilets, but both are jobs that need to be done and it's my job to do them. Most everything I do for Himself is done with a smile as I just like pleasing him by taking care of all the mundane chores so he doesn't even need to think about them. In fact, he often teases me because I'll be humming while I work. ::chuckles:: That said, while I do find the 'value' of service the same, doing things which are harder, or less pleasant does tend to bring my submission in doing them more into focus. Just a bit more though.. truly, I don't usually dwell on the job at hand, I just set about to do it.

quote:

Do submissives value their own obedience, no matter what they think of the chore? Do their Dom/mes?


I believe Himself does value my obedience and my service simply because it frees him up to take care of issues with which I cannot deal or which are his personal space. Hobbies, his job, the medical needs of his father etc.

quote:

Or, is the submissive's opinion concerning the task just irrelevant? 


That sums it up nicely for how things work in this household. He expects my best effort and that's what he gets from me regardless of the task at hand.

Celeste



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/28/2006 11:27:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JassWolf
So I'm wondering: do we place value on the service of a submissive who is doing something s/he loves? If so, do we place as much value on that service as we do on fulfilling a task that is dreaded?

Do submissives value their own obedience, no matter what they think of the chore? Do their Dom/mes?

Or, is the submissive's opinion concerning the task just irrelevant? 

I think the opinion of submissives on this could be interesting, but I'm eager to hear what Dom/mes think too.

TIA.
JW 


Sadly there are even people who will say it's not even "true submission" if the submissive is enjoying it directly!

Yes, sadly, there is a vein of competition and martyrdom in many submissives who feel that they are worth more as a submissve if they "give more."  Their submission is somehow better than anothers because they are willing to do X, when most only do Y.  Or that they prove submission by sacrificing- they are only happy 12% of the time, so they are REALLY submitting 88% of the time.

I think they miss the boat and end up just getting caught up in unrealistic ideals.  Submission is submission.  Your submission is not MORE because I happen to enjoy it and you hate it- we're both still obeying.  For you, perhaps you feel the leash pull more intensly- but that doesn't make anyone a better sub than someone who never ever is ordered to do something they don't already enjoy.



wandering4u -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/29/2006 4:22:55 AM)

All depends on the context. But basically, submission is the issue no matter what the task.  If the sub is happy when doing it is not something that comes into the equation.



Littlepita -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/29/2006 6:46:41 AM)

 
As someone learning how to submit with grace and docility, *smiles at Sir*  I have had to really look within myself lately and find that place that is willing to submit even when it’s something I don’t like doing.

I am very happy doing the mundane housework, cooking, and of course, any sexual activity my Sir would like me to do. I am not so happy when he wants me to step out of my comfort zone and do something either for him or for myself.

Like Celeste’s Master, mine also expects me to give a perfect effort. And if I do the “unpleasant” then yes I value it more then doing the thing I know I can readily do. I believe he values it more as well, but I will have to let him answer that for himself. [:)]



ownedgirlie -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/29/2006 9:30:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Yes, sadly, there is a vein of competition and martyrdom in many submissives who feel that they are worth more as a submissve if they "give more."  Their submission is somehow better than anothers because they are willing to do X, when most only do Y.  Or that they prove submission by sacrificing- they are only happy 12% of the time, so they are REALLY submitting 88% of the time.

I think they miss the boat and end up just getting caught up in unrealistic ideals.  Submission is submission.  Your submission is not MORE because I happen to enjoy it and you hate it- we're both still obeying.  For you, perhaps you feel the leash pull more intensly- but that doesn't make anyone a better sub than someone who never ever is ordered to do something they don't already enjoy.

I think I get what you're saying here, but I wasn't understanding the OP as asking "more in comparison to others"  rather, in comparison to oneself and other duties that are performed.  In my particular response, I was attempting to say more value is placed when I go out of my comfort zone to please, than when I do what comes easily to me.  Yes, he appreciates both, but he gets a lot of satisfaction out of seeing my efforts, and what I will put myself through for him.  This is not to say, however, that I am unhappy when I do the difficult (we just had a conversation about that this morning).  In fact the ideal is, I believe, in being very happy about doing what is most difficult.

Now, you are correct in that whether I serve as shoe-removal-service when he comes in and sits, or open my mouth in urinal service, both are submitting.  But one required a lot more effort than the other, and his appreciation for that effort (perhaps that is how I am defining "value") is greater.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/29/2006 11:04:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Now, you are correct in that whether I serve as shoe-removal-service when he comes in and sits, or open my mouth in urinal service, both are submitting.  But one required a lot more effort than the other, and his appreciation for that effort (perhaps that is how I am defining "value") is greater.

I agree, and I think it's valid that someone understands what they value- they value X activity more than Y activity in this particular way due to the responses it invokes within them. 

The problem is the slippery slope it can create- such that subs will sacrifice more and more and more in an attempt to prove themselves and lose sight that submission is not about how much you sacrifice- but about being true to yourself and creating a fulfilling relationship.  They become martyrs and not happy fulfilled people.

And, for a lot of subs and slaves, in order to validate their sacrifice, they call themselves better than others who are not making those sacrifices.  That leads to all sorts of problems as well.



enigmabrat -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/29/2006 11:08:30 AM)

personaly I dont think  master should have a sub do something thay "hate" if the sub really hate something why would A Master want to have them do that?? A sub shouldnt have to prove they are submissive by doing something they hate doing



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/29/2006 11:10:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: enigmabrat

personaly I dont think  master should have a sub do something thay "hate" if the sub really hate something why would A Master want to have them do that?? A sub shouldnt have to prove they are submissive by doing something they hate doing

Because it needs to be done.  Because as a slave I obey, not interpret (when it comes to the ultimate point). 

It's not necessarily to prove something- no one needs to prove or remind me of who I am.  It's simply that things have to get done.  I may hate it, but I don't hate submitting and getting things done that need to get done.



thetammyjo -> RE: The Smiling Submissive? (7/29/2006 12:20:02 PM)

Let me put it this way.

While I do not think it is innately more valuable to obey and service in an area/activity you do not like, I know that it moves my heart more and gives me more "energy" when Fox serves in a way that really primarily for me even though he dislikes it.

It feels different to me to receive that service. It isn't more valuable but I think I probably have a higher compatiblity with someone who is willing to do those things than someone who is not because I feel that is is more of what I consider a owner-slave relationship to me.



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