Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (Full Version)

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KenDckey -> Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 3:08:06 PM)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/obama-budget-stadiums_n_6878368.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Should pro sports complexes be funded by tax free govt bonds? Obama says no. I agree with this one.




Aylee -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 4:00:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/obama-budget-stadiums_n_6878368.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Should pro sports complexes be funded by tax free govt bonds? Obama says no. I agree with this one.


Nope.

I would add that we need to end the Hollywood tax breaks as well.




KenDckey -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 4:06:23 PM)

I would have no problem with that Aylee




DaddySatyr -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 4:07:12 PM)


The NFL makes $10,000,000,000 per year. They can build their own damn stadia.

I feel the same about all sports.



Michael




DesideriScuri -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 4:12:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/obama-budget-stadiums_n_6878368.html?utm_hp_ref=politics
Should pro sports complexes be funded by tax free govt bonds? Obama says no. I agree with this one.


I think that should be up to the host city and it's residents.

It's also not "costing" taxpayers anything. The reduction in taxes paid by the owners of the stadium, isn't a subsidy. It's a reduction in taxes. If the tax-free bonds aren't offered, or the complex is built without them, it won't cost taxpayers any less. They will still be taxed, and likely at the same level (how often do tax rates go down?).





KenDckey -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 4:16:37 PM)

I believe it is the interest on the bonds that cost the taxpayers




Tkman117 -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 5:00:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/obama-budget-stadiums_n_6878368.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Should pro sports complexes be funded by tax free govt bonds? Obama says no. I agree with this one.


Nope.

I would add that we need to end the Hollywood tax breaks as well.


There's hollywood tax breaks? Seriously? Seems like they give tax breaks for everything these days.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 6:16:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I believe it is the interest on the bonds that cost the taxpayers


How does that cost the taxpayers?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 6:18:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/obama-budget-stadiums_n_6878368.html?utm_hp_ref=politics
Should pro sports complexes be funded by tax free govt bonds? Obama says no. I agree with this one.

Nope.
I would add that we need to end the Hollywood tax breaks as well.

There's hollywood tax breaks? Seriously? Seems like they give tax breaks for everything these days.


Unless you don't purchase health insurance... [8D]




dcnovice -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 7:06:52 PM)

quote:

It's also not "costing" taxpayers anything. The reduction in taxes paid by the owners of the stadium, isn't a subsidy. It's a reduction in taxes.

A reduction in taxes is also a reduction in revenue. That leaves the municipality with two options:

(a) offset the revenue loss by raising taxes/fees elsewhere, or

(b) cut services/benefits (and thus at least some folks' livelihoods).

Whatever the semantic ballet, either option strikes me as imposing a cost on taxpayers (or a subset of them).




MrRodgers -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/16/2015 8:49:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I believe it is the interest on the bonds that cost the taxpayers


How does that cost the taxpayers?


Whatever happened to that great glorious free market ? ANY involvement by govt. is a subsidy and borders on immoral.

The taxpayer first guarantees the loan not the borrower who often presents no collateral. Then the debt service is paid by the taxpayers. All too often then the stadium tenant is given a cheap lease and the also enjoys parking revenue and concessions while some cities actually pay for management and upkeep.

These deals also offer no economic benefit as often cited for the local community. These deals are a complete give-away to the investor class and at the expense of the community.




MercTech -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/17/2015 6:45:58 AM)

But
But
Building a new stadium will benefit businesses and the general population...
that can afford sky boxes




bounty44 -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/17/2015 7:20:56 AM)

ive got an old text book that touches on some of the issue and I just hunted this up (some paraphrasing):

"owners have justified stadium subsidies and other forms of public support for professional sports teams using five major arguments:

"1. a stadium and pro team create jobs; those who hold the jobs spend money in the city.

"2. stadium construction infuses money into the local economy.

"3. the team attracts other businesses to the city and will bring visitors from outside to spend money there.

"4. the team attracts regional and national media attention, which boosts tourism and allows for local businesses to sell products outside the city, thereby boosting regional economic development.

"5. the team creates positive psychic and social benefits---pride and social solidarity will be increased."


that said---while I can see the argument of it benefitting the "rich investing class" most---anyone can invest in the bonds. ive got a municipal bond fund whose shares are low and has done well. if I had the opportunity to buy stadium bond funds directly, I might do it. but then theres this:

http://blogs.barrons.com/incomeinvesting/2013/04/23/muni-market-lesson-dont-issue-baseball-stadium-bonds/

maybe some preferential selling to local investors is a partial answer to the problem?




tj444 -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/17/2015 10:50:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/obama-budget-stadiums_n_6878368.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Should pro sports complexes be funded by tax free govt bonds? Obama says no. I agree with this one.

ok,.. i am not a sports person.. dont watch any of it... I know my link isnt about PRO sports, its about "amateur" college sports (NCAA) and how it rips off the players entirely and also how many of these schools are technically non-profits so in the end rip off the taxpayers too (11:20 minutes).. and heck, any excuse to post a John Oliver clip.. [:)] ..actually, the clip is entertaining and very illuminating on how the whole system works (at least for some)..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX8BXH3SJn0 Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: The NCAA




DesideriScuri -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/17/2015 5:52:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

It's also not "costing" taxpayers anything. The reduction in taxes paid by the owners of the stadium, isn't a subsidy. It's a reduction in taxes.

A reduction in taxes is also a reduction in revenue. That leaves the municipality with two options:
(a) offset the revenue loss by raising taxes/fees elsewhere, or
(b) cut services/benefits (and thus at least some folks' livelihoods).
Whatever the semantic ballet, either option strikes me as imposing a cost on taxpayers (or a subset of them).


That assumes that the current level of spending is "proper." But, what of all the tertiary revenues brought in because the team is located there?

Are there no taxes paid on the incomes of the athletes? The City of Toledo taxes income at 2.45%, making a salary of $770K (the Median NFL Salary from this January 2011 article) worth $18.8K+ worth of tax revenues. 52 starters makes it almost $981K in revenues (and that's if the team is only paying the median, while the average salary was $1.9M (or $2.4M+ in revenues).

What about the tertiary businesses because of the sports team?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000229570/article/dallas-cowboys-to-move-headquarters-from-irving-to-frisco
    quote:

    The Dallas Cowboys formally announced Tuesday they are moving their headquarters from suburban Irving to suburban Frisco after winning overwhelming approval for a $115 million development that includes an indoor stadium for practice and use by area prep teams.
    ...
    The stadium will be paid for mostly through a city sales tax, with the school district funding part of the construction. The deal, which was approved late Monday, calls for the Cowboys to manage the facilities and pay operating costs.
    School district officials said they already were planning on building a football stadium before singing [sic] onto this private-public deal.
    "We could in no way duplicate a stadium of this caliber on our own, spending the same amount for construction," said Jeremy Lyon, Frisco ISD's superintendent.
    Lyon said the partnership will save taxpayers money in the long run by splitting costs after the stadium is open.
    ...
    The 91-acre development includes 25 acres for the Cowboys' facilities, while the remaining 66 acres will be used for stores, restaurants and a luxury hotel. According to city officials, the development will generate $1.26 billion in tax revenue with an estimated economic impact of $23.4 billion over the next 30 years.


Let's see... $115M complex (not totally paid for through taxes, nor just by public entities) to generate $1.26B over 30 years? That's not all that bad, is it?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/17/2015 6:03:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I believe it is the interest on the bonds that cost the taxpayers

How does that cost the taxpayers?

Whatever happened to that great glorious free market ? ANY involvement by govt. is a subsidy and borders on immoral.
The taxpayer first guarantees the loan not the borrower who often presents no collateral. Then the debt service is paid by the taxpayers. All too often then the stadium tenant is given a cheap lease and the also enjoys parking revenue and concessions while some cities actually pay for management and upkeep.
These deals also offer no economic benefit as often cited for the local community. These deals are a complete give-away to the investor class and at the expense of the community.


Not at all true.

Typically, the citizens have to approve the use of that money, so if they do get their say in the matter. What you're saying is that there is no economic impact of a team being located in a city. Have you ever driving near Atlanta a few hours before a Braves game? I have. We were traveling back from Orlando to Ohio, and we did decide to go around Atlanta instead of through the city. The highway was packed with cars 3 hours before the game.

Nope. No impact at all.

The Toledo Mud Hens play in downtown Toledo. The Huntington Center is also downtown, and that's where the Toledo Walleye (ECHL Hockey franchise) play. When there are events there, it's amazing how many people are in downtown Toledo. When there aren't events there, it's amazing how few people are down there (and how many are hookers).

But, nope. No economic benefit to a community because of a professional team. [8|]




MrRodgers -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/17/2015 8:23:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

It's also not "costing" taxpayers anything. The reduction in taxes paid by the owners of the stadium, isn't a subsidy. It's a reduction in taxes.

A reduction in taxes is also a reduction in revenue. That leaves the municipality with two options:
(a) offset the revenue loss by raising taxes/fees elsewhere, or
(b) cut services/benefits (and thus at least some folks' livelihoods).
Whatever the semantic ballet, either option strikes me as imposing a cost on taxpayers (or a subset of them).


That assumes that the current level of spending is "proper." But, what of all the tertiary revenues brought in because the team is located there?

Are there no taxes paid on the incomes of the athletes? The City of Toledo taxes income at 2.45%, making a salary of $770K (the Median NFL Salary from this January 2011 article) worth $18.8K+ worth of tax revenues. 52 starters makes it almost $981K in revenues (and that's if the team is only paying the median, while the average salary was $1.9M (or $2.4M+ in revenues).

What about the tertiary businesses because of the sports team?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000229570/article/dallas-cowboys-to-move-headquarters-from-irving-to-frisco
    quote:

    The Dallas Cowboys formally announced Tuesday they are moving their headquarters from suburban Irving to suburban Frisco after winning overwhelming approval for a $115 million development that includes an indoor stadium for practice and use by area prep teams.
    ...
    The stadium will be paid for mostly through a city sales tax, with the school district funding part of the construction. The deal, which was approved late Monday, calls for the Cowboys to manage the facilities and pay operating costs.
    School district officials said they already were planning on building a football stadium before singing [sic] onto this private-public deal.
    "We could in no way duplicate a stadium of this caliber on our own, spending the same amount for construction," said Jeremy Lyon, Frisco ISD's superintendent.
    Lyon said the partnership will save taxpayers money in the long run by splitting costs after the stadium is open.
    ...
    The 91-acre development includes 25 acres for the Cowboys' facilities, while the remaining 66 acres will be used for stores, restaurants and a luxury hotel. According to city officials, the development will generate $1.26 billion in tax revenue with an estimated economic impact of $23.4 billion over the next 30 years.


Let's see... $115M complex (not totally paid for through taxes, nor just by public entities) to generate $1.26B over 30 years? That's not all that bad, is it?

Except that the marketplace should be the basis for that decision...not a taxpayer subsidy. All of those things happen anyway. To justify govt./tax contribution is still a give-away to the investors. Plus there are communities/states that have no income tax so that contribution is out.




MrRodgers -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/17/2015 8:26:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I believe it is the interest on the bonds that cost the taxpayers

How does that cost the taxpayers?

Whatever happened to that great glorious free market ? ANY involvement by govt. is a subsidy and borders on immoral.
The taxpayer first guarantees the loan not the borrower who often presents no collateral. Then the debt service is paid by the taxpayers. All too often then the stadium tenant is given a cheap lease and the also enjoys parking revenue and concessions while some cities actually pay for management and upkeep.
These deals also offer no economic benefit as often cited for the local community. These deals are a complete give-away to the investor class and at the expense of the community.


Not at all true.

Typically, the citizens have to approve the use of that money, so if they do get their say in the matter. What you're saying is that there is no economic impact of a team being located in a city. Have you ever driving near Atlanta a few hours before a Braves game? I have. We were traveling back from Orlando to Ohio, and we did decide to go around Atlanta instead of through the city. The highway was packed with cars 3 hours before the game.

Nope. No impact at all.

The Toledo Mud Hens play in downtown Toledo. The Huntington Center is also downtown, and that's where the Toledo Walleye (ECHL Hockey franchise) play. When there are events there, it's amazing how many people are in downtown Toledo. When there aren't events there, it's amazing how few people are down there (and how many are hookers).

But, nope. No economic benefit to a community because of a professional team. [8|]


Look at all of the studies over decades...there is no increase in economic impact. That means that other spending decreases, there are tax revenues to be compensated and because in almost all cases...there already is a stadium.

SO no, cities/states do not need to borrow for a new one.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/18/2015 3:15:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

It's also not "costing" taxpayers anything. The reduction in taxes paid by the owners of the stadium, isn't a subsidy. It's a reduction in taxes.

A reduction in taxes is also a reduction in revenue. That leaves the municipality with two options:
(a) offset the revenue loss by raising taxes/fees elsewhere, or
(b) cut services/benefits (and thus at least some folks' livelihoods).
Whatever the semantic ballet, either option strikes me as imposing a cost on taxpayers (or a subset of them)

That assumes that the current level of spending is "proper." But, what of all the tertiary revenues brought in because the team is located there?
Are there no taxes paid on the incomes of the athletes? The City of Toledo taxes income at 2.45%, making a salary of $770K (the Median NFL Salary from this January 2011 article) worth $18.8K+ worth of tax revenues. 52 starters makes it almost $981K in revenues (and that's if the team is only paying the median, while the average salary was $1.9M (or $2.4M+ in revenues).
What about the tertiary businesses because of the sports team?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000229570/article/dallas-cowboys-to-move-headquarters-from-irving-to-frisco
    quote:

    The Dallas Cowboys formally announced Tuesday they are moving their headquarters from suburban Irving to suburban Frisco after winning overwhelming approval for a $115 million development that includes an indoor stadium for practice and use by area prep teams.
    ...
    The stadium will be paid for mostly through a city sales tax, with the school district funding part of the construction. The deal, which was approved late Monday, calls for the Cowboys to manage the facilities and pay operating costs.
    School district officials said they already were planning on building a football stadium before singing [sic] onto this private-public deal.
    "We could in no way duplicate a stadium of this caliber on our own, spending the same amount for construction," said Jeremy Lyon, Frisco ISD's superintendent.
    Lyon said the partnership will save taxpayers money in the long run by splitting costs after the stadium is open.
    ...
    The 91-acre development includes 25 acres for the Cowboys' facilities, while the remaining 66 acres will be used for stores, restaurants and a luxury hotel. According to city officials, the development will generate $1.26 billion in tax revenue with an estimated economic impact of $23.4 billion over the next 30 years.

Let's see... $115M complex (not totally paid for through taxes, nor just by public entities) to generate $1.26B over 30 years? That's not all that bad, is it?

Except that the marketplace should be the basis for that decision...not a taxpayer subsidy. All of those things happen anyway. To justify govt./tax contribution is still a give-away to the investors. Plus there are communities/states that have no income tax so that contribution is out.


The marketplace is the basis. A team can choose to be here or there. Which place wants it more?

A tax abatement isn't a subsidy. A tax credit isn't a subsidy (unless the credit is greater than the tax liability). A tax reduction isn't a subsidy.

I wonder how many communities and states don't know if they do or don't have an income tax in their local jurisdiction. They could be screwing themselves without even knowing it!!! [8|]





DesideriScuri -> RE: Pro Sports Tax Free Bonds (3/18/2015 3:19:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Look at all of the studies over decades...there is no increase in economic impact. That means that other spending decreases, there are tax revenues to be compensated and because in almost all cases...there already is a stadium.
SO no, cities/states do not need to borrow for a new one.


Who the fuck are you to tell a city/state they can't do that? Isn't that up to the residents?




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