RE: Coming "out" in kink (Full Version)

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synrgy33 -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 6:22:40 PM)

I have a very unique experience with the whole coming out thing.I went through a divorce almost 6 years ago, partly it was because of wanting BDSM and my husband did not, part of it was alot of other reasons. Because my parents were helping me pay for the divorce and other things dealing with child custody, I felt it was my responsibility to prepare my parents for what would come out in court. I had no idea what my ex had against me, but instead of my parents hearing the trashy version of bdsm through my ex and his attorney I asked my parents if I could have one hour of their time to talk to them. I grew up in a VERY D/s household, so I kind of figured my parents would be okay, I was also taught that I could talk to my parents about anything, but it was a bit scarey sitting down and telling my parents "Hey I'm kinky, I love bdsm, and this is what it stands for" I did not give them ALL the details of my kinks, but went after the mental aspects and how it fullfilled me not only mentally-emotionally, but physically as well. At first they looked at me in wide eyed shock, then my dad turned to my mom, asked her to fetch him a Dr Pepper (Can we say Dominant???), my mother said 'Yes dear" and got up to go get it.. (Can we say submissive????), lolol. As soon as my mom cleared the doorway my dad proceeded to ask me if I was going to teach him how to tie knots. To this day I have not, lol, but he's eagerly waiting the day when I have a house big enough that he can help us build a cross and a spanking bench. My brothers also know as well, and they just say "Well, we always knew you were strange" and my sister knows as well, but she doesn't agree with it, like it, but she's also in a very BDSM relationship, lol so go figure. I'm truly VERY VERY lucky that my parents were so supportive.

I guess I figure I have nothing to lose yanno. People I meet at jobs find out eventually, I am who I am. I don't try to hide it, but I also don't brag Hey I'm into bdsm and like to be spanked" but if people ask, I will answer questions. I have already lost so much, and if they're truly my friends.. they'll love me no matter what. I do admit I am cautious about who I tell what too, as I think it's important to shelter peopl who don't really wanna know.

Awesome topic.

:)

goes back to the shadows.

syn~



fyrekittyn -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 6:23:29 PM)

Interesting topic. I am bi, and I am a switch, as well as a hardcore masochist. I was born this way. My cousins and I would play these elaborate role playing games as children, and I would always be a slave or something like that, and get 'punished'. I came out to my family about being bi first. That for me was the easy part. I just told my mother I liked girls and guys, and had slept with both. The rest of the family was slowly told from there. Coming out as into BDSM was harder for me. Instead of just telling my mother I liked girls, I had to explain to her that I liked being tied up and beaten. Thankfully, my mother's best friend was a sub, and that made all the explainations easier. (FYI, this was all done at the age of 15) I find people more accepting in general of my bisexuality than my kinks. If people ask, I tell them. If they don't ask, I don't force the knowledge upon them. However I don't hide it, it is part of who I am. When asked where I go on Saturday nights, to some I say 'a party' and to others I say 'a BDSM club'. It just depends on who I am talking to.



CrappyDom -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 6:28:15 PM)

I think it varies greatly where one lives.  I am lucky to live in California where things are much more loose.  I am out to people at work, my family knows, heck sometimes even classmates know.

I can't imagine living someplace in the midwest and being into this, it isn't seen as much different than announcing you are a serial rapist.



SusanofO -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 6:32:24 PM)

No, it's not. I can vouch for that.

- Susan



hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 6:34:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS

I remember how I felt hearing this and would like to hear from others.  When you realized that you were kinky, into D/s or identified as either a top or bottom, how did you feel?  If you are not "out" to your friends, family or collegues, would you share why not? For those that are, what was the process of revealing this part of your life like for you? If you are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, how did coming to understand yourself as kinky dovetail with your understanding of your sexuality?  Were they seperate or mutual processes? If you are out as gay/lesbian, do you agree that there is no equivilant for heterosexual people -- even "coming out" as kinky or into Dominance/submission?


It felt a bit odd for the first couple of years - but I found my kinks when I was 17 and just entering into adulthood, so EVERYTHING felt odd to me at that point in time.  I am very "out" with everyone I know other than my grandmother ( a deep water, double dipped baptist woman who considers anything fun to be a "sin" - I figure if I ever got pissed off enough at her to want to murder her, all I'd have to do is Out myself to her, and it would cause a fatal heart attack.) 
 
As for the process of revealing it to the rest of the world that knows me - well, my parents picked up on it while I was in college, when they saw some of the rather odd charges I was putting on their credit card while buying toys.  Since they had their own fair share of kinks (though not the same kinks as mine) it was a very open and easy going discussion once we got past the "Whatinhell did you think you were doing charging that much on the card without prior approval???" point.  My brother thinks I'm a flake, but I take that completely in stride and consider the source - he's one of the flakiest people I know, is alcoholic, a recovering drug addict, and has been abusive to every girlfriend he's had since we were in our early teens - so I gnore everything that comes out of his mouth beyond "good morning."  Since all my close friends are also involved in BDSM, and I generally met them through various BDSM groups, it was never a matter of outting ourselves to each other.  We wouldn't have met at all if not for the mutual interest in playing rough.
 
I'm hetero, with only the slightest of bisexual interest :ie, only on the recieving end.  Don't even Suggest that I "give" to another woman, because it's not going to happen unless I'm EXCEPTIONALLY drunk and on the verge of desperate to get laid.  And since I have plenty of male meat around more than willing to scratch any itches, it would take some serious Effort to put me to a point of desperation.  (It's GOOD to have "Friends with Benefits." )



shyfem -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 7:02:45 PM)

I have only "come out" to one friend. I did that for two reasons. One I needed a safe call because at the time I was corresponding with several Dom's that I was looking to possibly meet and two, I had to tell someone. LOL!
 
She accepted everything I said, and said that she had noticed a distinct difference in me. Perhaps she meant I was more happy, more self-assured, as those things are true since my discovery of BDSM.
 
As for why I do not tell my other friends or my family? I don't think they would understand and/or they would be worried about my meeting the "wrong kind of man". At work, I have made a few subtle kink related jokes. For instance, on my birthday this guy at work was teasing me about getting my spankings, I looked him straight in the eye and said "I just might like that", I then laughed it off. He stopped giving me a hard time though, somehow I think he thought I might just be serious. (I am so bad [:D])
 
I agree with Juliaoceania, I think people probably view submissive women as being against the feminist movement and therefore an outcast, I can imagine they might view submissive men as weak or something similar. They may also think dominant men are all abusers or closet rapists. I know the friend I came out to hinted at the abuse factor. I quickly assuaged her fears by telling her that I could meet a man like that regardless of my interests in D/s.
 
~shy
-----------------------------------------------
May all who tread here find what they seek!



HollyS -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 8:11:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It is easy for people to make fun of masochists and make it synonmous with dislike of self, and that is one example.

We teach people to be very independent and self reliant here. If you "need" others or put their needs above your own this is viewed as an unhealthy thing. Being a dominant is synonomous with domineering abusive bully.

Seeing that the above is believed about us, and that people fear what they do not understand, I doubt these misconceptions will change overnight, and people will continue to titter behind their hands when one of us "comes" out to the vanilla world. 


These are all reasons for keeping quiet about one's orientation, especially if it would affect how you are seen at your job.  It can be bad enough to have one's friends thinking that you're being abused or your family thinking you're a "pervert." Unfortunately, many bosses might start seeing you differently as an employee were they to find out that one has dominant or submissive tendencies.  Like Susan said, it would be great if everyone could compartmentalize and agree that what one does in their private time is no one else's business, but it never works out that way. You're right - people fear what they don't understand.  Until people begin to understand, kinky folks will still find it safer to stay in the shadows.

~Holly



Quivver -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 9:09:46 PM)

Holly..... first I would have to ask what the
defination (sp?) of ~Kinky~ is in this case.
Cause ~Kinky~ can cover some miles.......

Is it purly sexual or are you refering to what
you also feel at your core?  

Is it an act, or a being? 

I mean I'm here but other family memebers
that I would deem ~kinky~ (on both fronts)
are not, and they would never identify
themselves with this lifestyle. 

In my case "comming out" would grow all kinds
of thoughts beyond what it is they choose to do,
which may or may not be true. 

Too many side roads messing up the perspective
for a clear answer to me.

Q








quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS

Many of you here know that I'm working on my doctorate in Psych. Recently while in class, my professor highlighted some of the special issues that affect various groups  who come seeking therapy. While discussing gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender clients, he said "There is no equivilant experience to coming out as gay or lesbian.  It is a purely unique experience which, if you are heterosexual, you will never understand. It is, however, your responsibility to develop appropriate empathy with clients as much as possible..."

I remember how I felt hearing this and would like to hear from others.  When you realized that you were kinky, into D/s or identified as either a top or bottom, how did you feel?  If you are not "out" to your friends, family or collegues, would you share why not? For those that are, what was the process of revealing this part of your life like for you? If you are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, how did coming to understand yourself as kinky dovetail with your understanding of your sexuality?  Were they seperate or mutual processes? If you are out as gay/lesbian, do you agree that there is no equivilant for heterosexual people -- even "coming out" as kinky or into Dominance/submission?

I would appreciate whatever people are willing to share, though I hope that any "Yes I agree!" or "That's totally wrong!" posts would be accompanied by reasons for your opinion.  Thanks for contributing.

~Holly






Noah -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 9:21:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It is easy for people to make fun of masochists and make it synonmous with dislike of self, and that is one example.

We teach people to be very independent and self reliant here. If you "need" others or put their needs above your own this is viewed as an unhealthy thing. Being a dominant is synonomous with domineering abusive bully.

Seeing that the above is believed about us, and that people fear what they do not understand, I doubt these misconceptions will change overnight, and people will continue to titter behind their hands when one of us "comes" out to the vanilla world. 


These are all reasons for keeping quiet about one's orientation, especially if it would affect how you are seen at your job.  It can be bad enough to have one's friends thinking that you're being abused or your family thinking you're a "pervert." Unfortunately, many bosses might start seeing you differently as an employee were they to find out that one has dominant or submissive tendencies.  Like Susan said, it would be great if everyone could compartmentalize and agree that what one does in their private time is no one else's business, but it never works out that way. You're right - people fear what they don't understand.  Until people begin to understand, kinky folks will still find it safer to stay in the shadows.

~Holly



Nice thread.

As to the question broached a few times of: "Why bring it up; it isn't anyone's business." Well this works pretty well for me generally, with specific exceptions. I'm wondering about something related though.

I wonder if anyone here has felt a sort of imperative to come out to this or that individual or small circle of people for a reason like the following. These people are your friends. With them you have a lot in common aside from kink, but their attitudes toward kink are so out of whack that it is actually troubling for you. Maybe you don't want to hear one more negative comment about kinky people. Maybe you are having difficulty not being personally affronted when these opinions are periodically voiced about "them" with the speaker ignorant to the fact that you are "one of them."

This could lead to a situation of outing one's self either in a sort of self-defense, as it were, or else maybe as a sort of standing up for the truth as you see it.

Seems hypothetically possible. Has it worked this way for anyone here?




IronBear -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 9:49:14 PM)

You made a great point Noah. On more than one occasion I've tired about aquainteces mouthing off compleat BS about either Paganism/Occult or BDSM that I've turned around and told them what I was and I'd prefer they either got edumicated or shut the hell up.



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 9:58:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
This could lead to a situation of outing one's self either in a sort of self-defense, as it were, or else maybe as a sort of standing up for the truth as you see it.

Seems hypothetically possible. Has it worked this way for anyone here?


Not so far, when it comes to BDSM, but back in the early 80s I started telling people I had gay friends, and went to gay bars, because I just couldn't sit and listen one more time to an ignorant, homophobic remark.

I imagine it's just a matter of time before this happens with the BDSM element in my life. As the general public becomes more aware of kink, more intolerant, uninformed comments are inevitable. It seems like it's part of the process of acceptance.



HollyS -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 10:01:31 PM)

Hi Quivver,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Holly..... first I would have to ask what the defination (sp?) of ~Kinky~ is in this case.
Cause ~Kinky~ can cover some miles.......


I deliberately tried to be as inclusive as possible by using the term "kinky" rather than D/s or S/m or any other term that might leave some group out. Any sort of alternative sexual practice, orientation, authority exchange relationship (such as Master/slave or Dom/sub), or fetish was what I had in mind. That said, it's really not my definition that matters -- what's more important is how a person who self-defines as kinky feels about revealing that fact to others, who they reveal to and from whom they choose to withhold that information.  For people who don't consider themselves kinky, then there is no "coming out" process for them to deal with. 

Hope this helps clarify things for you.  I agree that it's a vague sort of term, but what matters is how you think about it and what you do as a result. 

~Holly






HollyS -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 10:20:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

My brother and all my friends know that I am Pagan, Gorean with a liking for BDSM. Over a few years and numeroud discussions it would appear that for some "comming out" in either their sexuality, kinkiness or their Pagan religion is roughly the same.


If you don't mind me asking, was it always like this for you? I mean growing up did your brother and friends know (or have a serious clue) that you were a Pagan as well as Gorean and BDSM-inclined?  Or was there a time where you had to decide to say it out loud to them and gauge their reaction?

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I does seem that the shock to both the system of the friends and family or themselves is dependant on firstly their own accepance on what they are and secondly their relationship and open mindedness of friends and family. There is no great divide in the "comming out". After talking  to a friend who is both Gay and Kinky, she said that each was unique for her but neither one was any more traumatic.


I totally agree that the reaction of those around you will depend largely on how secure you are about yourself, then about how open those people are to either accepting this new information about you or finally admitting that they had secretly wondered for years.  I really appreciate the information about your friend and her feeling that each was distinct (and equally traumatic).  That's a big part of my initial question, whether the experiences are similar. 

quote:

  ORIGINAL: Noah

This could lead to a situation of outing one's self either in a sort of self-defense, as it were, or else maybe as a sort of standing up for the truth as you see it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

You made a great point Noah. On more than one occasion I've tired about aquainteces mouthing off compleat BS about either Paganism/Occult or BDSM that I've turned around and told them what I was and I'd prefer they either got edumicated or shut the hell up.


This is an interesting point, whether people will reveal information about themselves previously kept secret as a way to shut down ignorant or rude comments.  I've spoken up in class discussions before, held silent in others, depending on the situation.  It can be a hard call for someone who isn't generally out to put themselves out there in an environment that's already identified itself as unwelcoming.  IB, I'd have loved to see the reaction on the faces of the group when you finally decided you'd had enough and spoke up. *grin*  Good show.

~Holly



juliaoceania -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 10:28:55 PM)

Holly,

I am planning on pursuing my PhD in anthropology. It is a little disheartening to hear about a professor in another discipline being closed minded to other ways of being and other experiences. I believe that if my academic peers found out about my lifestyle choice they would want to hear about it from my perspective, if for no other reason than intellectual curiousity... but cultural anthropologists by and large are a curious bunch who are taught to expect the unexpected and to try to set aside their own cultural norms when viewing what others do, especially when it comes to how a culture organizes their sexuality.

It wasn't until very recently that BDSM changed from being a deviant disorder into being an accepted way to express one's sexuality. I went to a therapist a couple of years ago that I tried to explain this aspect of my life to, and I was given the clear message that it was not ok... so I clammed up and shortly after that I quit going and treated my anxiety as a body and mind problem, instead of a mind problem with much success. I hope if you go into the theraputical part of your discipline that you will become a kink friendly therapist that can help people deal with these parts of themselves.

I personally believe that the majority of people have very kinky fantasies that they will never get to explore, and people like us threaten them on that level too, because we have the audacity to actually embrace the freedom of completely living our sexual natures. Most never get the courage to even try.



Emperor1956 -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/14/2006 10:29:03 PM)

Noah said: 
quote:


I wonder if anyone here has felt a sort of imperative to come out to this or that individual or small circle of people for a reason like the following. These people are your friends. With them you have a lot in common aside from kink, but their attitudes toward kink are so out of whack that it is actually troubling for you. Maybe you don't want to hear one more negative comment about kinky people. Maybe you are having difficulty not being personally affronted when these opinions are periodically voiced about "them" with the speaker ignorant to the fact that you are "one of them."


It hasn't happened because "out" or not, I don't hang out with people who's thoughts are negative about any group.  I don't make friends with those who espouse racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia or other negative thoughts, why would I stick around people who are down on WIIWD?  If someone close to Me expressed negative thoughts about "kink", I might take it as a teachable moment, but if it were a casual acquaintance I would surely not "out" myself to them, I'd leave that circle.

E.



SusanofO -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/15/2006 3:09:22 AM)

The vanilla friend I told I am involved in bdsm told me once a few years ago about a guy she was dating who wanted her to do "kinky stuff" (bondage and spanking). She had been sexually abused from the age of 9-17, so her attitudes about sex in general were skewed sometimes (I thought so anyway, I also think it's not her fault, she has  never received therapy for the sexual abuse she suffered). She veered from not being able to get enough (sex) for a few years, it seemed (she told me she was at one point concerned she was an "addict") to becoming a prude (her attitudes on sex go in "cycles" for years in one, then another, it seems. She's a real talented and nice gal and I like her so much; we've known eachother over 20 years.

When we had this conversation, she was in her prude phase, and was shocked and disgusted he'd asked that of her. I told her I'd done what she was describing with someone recently, and also with another person (a guy I'd dated in college), and that I actually thought someone requesting or wanting that wasn't particularly weird, even if it was not everyone's cup of tea. We've been friends for a long time, and she was a little taken aback, but did listen to my comments and seemed to respect what I was saying. But that was all I really said. I didn't go into details because she didn't ask for any, but I know she took it in (what she did with the information I have no idea. She didn't bring it up again, and I didn't inquire). Not out of lack of curiosity, but because she was in her prude phase and it was a touchy area to discuss, so we just talked about other stuff instead.

I've never had to defend myself against any outright discrimination, and from that standpoint I have been luckier than some people (losing custody of kids in a divorce, etc. due to bdsm activity). If I hear juvenile jokes about spanking or whips or something I just ignore them - usually it's some moron making them to begin with.

**There was one time when I was 18, though, I remember real well, where I did stand up for a bunch of gay men who were being ticketed  by cops at 2a.m., after the bars closed, for "jaywalking" to reach the parking lot where their cars were parked. This incident made me mad.

One of the men  was a friend of mine (we worked together) had he'd taken me to "his bar" to have fun, because I was helping him study for exams at school. I had never been to a gay bar, and the entire evening was quite an eye opener for me.
I didn't quite know what to think so I got roaringly drunk to pass the time. I did have fun. But- I got very miffed when I saw all of these men who had done nothing wrong (except be gay, apparently), getting tickets for jaywalking (who gets a ticket for jaywalking)?

The cops were giving out hundreds of tickets. I got one from one of the cops, and I tore it up right in that fat cop's face and yelled at him that I thought he was a pig.
I was not drunk at that point (not obviously) but did rip up the ticket and screamed at him so I got hauled into the police station (along w/about 50 other people) and had to call my dad. He came and picked me up (dad was not happy at all, about all that) - but, months later, he did tell me he was impressed I stood up for what I believed in; apparently he thought the cops were in the wrong there, too, and said he was proud he'd raised a sensitive kid. I told him it was because I had a sensitive dad.

I found it ironic that later that same year one of  my parents' friends in their book club came put of the closet and told the rest of the members he was gay and he and his wife were divorcing, after being married over 20 years. I'd seen this guy at that bar, but never of course told anyone (certainly not my parents). He could not believe I had not told them already, but I didn't think it was my business. My parents were one of the few couples in this book club that did not completely ostracize this guy due to his coming out.

It can be a joy to live in Nebraska - today the Same Sex Marriage Ban (which was over-turned, after being voted in last year) was re-instated on the grounds it "protects marriage". I am sure this battle will go on for years, all over the country, for many states.

That experience of seeing hundreds of people ticketed for "jaywalking" did stick with me. The next semester, I took a Sociology class and wrote a term paper on whether homosexuality was due to nature or nurture, acc. to what the the source had to say about it (actual gay men). To get my information, I went to the source - back to the bar(s).

I interviewed over 300 gay men in 3 months with a short survey regarding whether they were 1) Happy being gay 2) Thought their sexuality was due to environoment or heredity or both 3) Whether they would be straight if they could be straight.
I got an A. I thought most of the guys I talked to were very open and honest. It took months to do the project. This was in 1979, before AIDS, and before gays have many of the awareness they might need more rights the the public has now.

- Susan



wandering4u -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/15/2006 3:28:51 AM)

I don't know. I've never tried to hide my "kink" nor have I broadcast it. Some people have picked up on it
at the office and in my social life. It has resulted in some people backing away, some getting closer but the majority are in the "interesting but not for me " category.

When people find out, it does seperate your true friends from the chaff! lol!



ShiftedJewel -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/15/2006 3:47:50 AM)

quote:

To me, that's as bad as those people I hear people mention here that make "vanillas" privy to their own kink without permission, by parading their partner around in public with a collar on leash,


First Susan, this is not an attack on your or your beliefs... ok.. I'm just using what you said as a jumping off point.

I remember the thread about the people in the mall walking around with leashes on their partners and what a mess that thread ended up being. Now, I understand what they were saying, and I agree, it completely depends on the context in which it happened. If it was basically a humiliation scene... then no, I don't agree with it at all, it wasn't consensual to all involved. But what if it were just a couple walking like that, an Owner and their slave? This could be the Owners way of telling the slave how proud they are of them, how much they loved being with them... how is this different then two men holding hands? Or two women? Or even husband and wife?
 
And no, I won't put the judging of others off on innocent nestlings either... I raised more then my share and I know for a fact that they are smarter then most give them credit for... a very simple "well honey, some people are into different stuff, that's all" would satisfy most of them. By treating it like something they should be "protected" from is as good as instilling the same mindset into them that got gay marriage banned in a lot of states. Sorry Susan... it just struck a cord in me and I had to get it out... honestly, I'm not directing it at you, I'm directing it at anyone that instills fear of wiitwd in the next generation... they will be our future law makers after all.

quote:

If the entire rest of the world accepted bdsm, I probably wouldn't discuss it (except on sites like this, or with a partner or bdsm oriented friend). To me, it's private. I personally feel liberated by my choice to practice what I feel is my bdsm orientation, but don't feel a need to get the rest of the world to celebrate my "liberation" with me, particularly.


And this is something I understand about you Susan, and I respect it. Personal choice should be respected. Just as my personal choice to be more open about wiitwd should also be respected.

quote:

It sometimes amazes me that some people think others "have to" accept their bdsm orientation.


No one HAS to accept my lifestyle choices, I just happen to think they should at the very least have to accept my right to chose my lifestyle orientation and not judge me unduly for it.

quote:

I can see similarities to someone being gay, etc.  - in some cases.
However, if someone is gay they did not (in my opinion) choose to be gay. And I think that, although it could be argued that the same could be said of being Dominant or submissive, I don't think it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that people are born with a bdsm orientation


Hmmm, I'm working on phrasing this so it doesn't sound so bitchy... But it sounds like you are saying that unless you are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be helpless in the choice you made as far as your sexuality then you really have a choice as to what it is that you are? That gay people are gay because they actually have no choice in the matter? I'm a dominant person, it's who I am, it's what I do and having no scientific proof is not going to change that.
 
Jewel



ScooterTrash -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/15/2006 4:05:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

I think it varies greatly where one lives.  I am lucky to live in California where things are much more loose.  I am out to people at work, my family knows, heck sometimes even classmates know.

I can't imagine living someplace in the midwest and being into this, it isn't seen as much different than announcing you are a serial rapist.

lol...I don't if it's that bad CD, but it will definitely get some raised eyebrows, no doubt much more so than in your area. I'm very open about WIITWD if questioned, but am wise enough to not advertise it exactly. Most anyone that knows me already realizes that, if they don't want an answer, don't ask the question. At work, they know that I live with multiple women, but they just refer to them as "the girls" and don't even try to figure the relationship out. Granted, the Midwest is somewhat resistant to acceptance..but, and this is only an assumption on my part, I think it's more a matter of peer pressure, where they don't want to appear too outlandish to their friends/family, than it really is a matter of non-acceptance. I think maybe they are still worried about being struck dead by that proverbial lightning from the sky..not that they have seen it, but they have heard tales from the congregation...lmao.



SusanofO -> RE: Coming "out" in kink (7/15/2006 4:09:51 AM)

No I am not saying it has to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't think it has to be proven at all. It doesn't really matter much if it's a lifestyle or a genetic pre-dispostion (although legally I think it has probably come down to that in things like divorce custody cases, it would be interesting to find out). 

I say this with all due respect (I really do). But - if some get to walk someone they love on a leash in a mall then (this may be a bad analogy but best I can do this early)- can I bring my dog to the mall and can he doo-do all over the floors? That's "my thing". I want him to be able to eat next to me in restaurants, and sit next to me on the bus, regardless of who has allergies, and even if he hasn't been obedience trained. And hey - its already common practice in Europe; it isn't fair I can't do the same thing here.My point is simply that it's not fair that some people would not like it (the doo-doo and allergies and bad dog manners aside. I wish I could think of a better example, but was trying to think of one non-bdsm related).

What bothers me are people who become disgruntled by predjudice (as if they didn't expect as much) if they do something like walk someone on a leash in a mall and then say other people should be more accepting. I agree - it would be nice, and I would be all for it, If it would actually change the way some other people think. What I think it does instead is exacerbates what some non-bdsm people think and can do more harm than good, much of the time, as far as changing non-bdsm folks' attitudes toward bdsm.

ACT UP (the pro-gay organization, for lack of a better or more closely related reference) has done much good - and I'd bet it's done as much harm as far as changing viewpoints in the general public - due to its in-your-face tactics. People don't change their attitudes overnight. It just wouldn't be my style. I don't think it's necessary (for me). I have not lost a job or a child due to being involved in this life-style. If I had, I might feel differently. I still think sexuality is private and if everyone was a whole lot less concerned w/what everyone was doing in that regard (excpet for pedophiles) - the world would be better off . That cuts both ways, too - what's good for the goose... is good for the gander, I think.

And I think with people who are very conservative, in-your-face tactics backfire mostly and, if this issue of having the freedom to be who one is in public about a sexual area is very important to some, then maybe a step-by-step approach or softer sell may work much better (like a bdsm group doing a canned food drive or literacy drive for a library, or something, instead, and getting that publicized). But that's just me, and maybe any progress that is made would be best made with a balance of the two types of methods - how do I know?. I think however people want to live is fine - if it works for them, and harms nobody else, - and those last four words have always been the sticking point as far as 'community standards' are concerned; it's what our local city council seems to spend much of its time debating anyway (right now, it's non-smokers vs. smokers). I used to smoke, and even I think a city-wide ban on smoking  in public places is over-the-top, as far as trampling smoker's rights go.   

*It's the logic of the thinking that I don't understand. I think it's completely circular. If that is true, and people should be more accepting of bdsm folk and how they want to publicly display their proclivities - then why aren't they just more accepting of people who aren't accepting them, instead?... Like I said before, I am not much of an activist (I have to be really pissed off first. I've been there, but it takes a lot to get me going).

I do see where you are coming from - I really do. I am not against anyone else doing whatever it is they want to do in public with someone else - but that's me (generally I could not care less what other people do - I only care what I do).

What annoys me are people thinking acceptance should be a 'given' or predjudice is not something they can expect. Of course it is something they are going to experience (I think, usually). If they want to try to break new ground in that regard, they  can do what they want, as far as I am concerned. As they can deal with the consequences (and yes, the consequences might not always be right or kind or fair). For now, that's perhaps what they can look forward to dealing with. Or not. 

I am from Nebraska, and it's obvious to me there are just some situations it's easier (for me) to not put myself in. I am not a coward (I know that for a fact).  If I had more at stake, I might. But right now, I don't. Less headaches mean my life is easier. It is that simple for me. I mean no offense,  and make these comments with all due respect.  

- Susan



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