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Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 12:51:29 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		Many of you here know that I'm working on my doctorate in Psych. Recently while in class, my professor highlighted some of the special issues that affect various groups  who come seeking therapy. While discussing gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender clients, he said "There is no equivilant experience to coming out as gay or lesbian.  It is a purely unique experience which, if you are heterosexual, you will never understand. It is, however, your responsibility to develop appropriate empathy with clients as much as possible..."

I remember how I felt hearing this and would like to hear from others.  When you realized that you were kinky, into D/s or identified as either a top or bottom, how did you feel?  If you are not "out" to your friends, family or collegues, would you share why not? For those that are, what was the process of revealing this part of your life like for you? If you are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, how did coming to understand yourself as kinky dovetail with your understanding of your sexuality?  Were they seperate or mutual processes? If you are out as gay/lesbian, do you agree that there is no equivilant for heterosexual people -- even "coming out" as kinky or into Dominance/submission?

I would appreciate whatever people are willing to share, though I hope that any "Yes I agree!" or "That's totally wrong!" posts would be accompanied by reasons for your opinion.  Thanks for contributing.

~Holly




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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 1:00:53 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I have only come out to one "vanilla" friend, and my sister might know, but we don't talk about it. I just see no reason to tell my family (my father for sure) because the topic of sex and how it affects our personal lives just never comes up in my family.

Plus, no matter how much I explained it, I am convinced that my father would think he "did something wrong", or feel guilty on some level if I told him, and I don't want to burden him. To me, that's as bad as those people I hear people mention here that make "vanillas" privy to their own kink without permission, by parading their partner around in public with a collar on leash, for instance. I am not afraid, it's just not a topic I consider necessary to discuss.

My "vanilla" friends I haven't told for the same reasons, or because I think they just would not understand. Maybe I'll tell one or two more as time goes by, maybe not.

**I think how someone chooses to practice their sexuality is a private thing. I don't feel "marginalized". If the entire rest of the world accepted bdsm, I probably wouldn't discuss it (except on sites like this, or with a partner or bdsm oriented friend). To me, it's private. I personally feel liberated by my choice to practice what I feel is my bdsm orientation, but don't feel a need to get the rest of the world to celebrate my "liberation" with me, particularly. 

It always makes me stop and wonder why when someone says they are "coming out" to their family, etc. - I'd maybe need to know more about their family, etc. to make this judgment, but my initial reaction internally is usually: Why? Why do you feel a need to do this? Are they looking for "permission"? Do they stop to consider who they might hurt, as well as how good they might feel after they"unburden" themselves of their "secret"? I know this might sound "unprogressive" of me, but it is how I feel. They probably have their own reasons for why they are doing it that I don't know about. 

There is undoubtedly some predjudice against people who have this orientation. I personally have not experienced it. Maybe if I had, I'd be more of a banner carrier for some kind of liberation movement. A big part of me thinks, though, that if people just decided to leave how others chose to practice their own sexuality as each person's own private business, the world might be a better place (pedophiles being the exception).

It sometimes amazes me that some people think others "have to" accept their bdsm orientation. I think: They don't. Why not? 1) It's nobody's business what anyone else does with their sex life, and 2) People have a right to their own opinions about sex and how it should, or should not be practiced, right or wrong.  

I can see similarities to someone being gay, etc.  - in some cases.
However, if someone is gay they did not (in my opinion) choose to be gay. And I think that, although it could be argued that the same could be said of being Dominant or submissive, I don't think it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that people are born with a bdsm orientation - and there are many "kink tourists" and also people who haven't felt this way since they were children who are involved in bdsm (for whatever reason; novelty, etc.), as well as those people who say they have been born with their orientation.
There may be "tourists" in the gay community, but not many that I've heard of; I haven't heard of many people "checking out" being gay or lesbian, outside of people maybe becoming bisexual for a scene because their Dominant (or submissive) desired it.

Interesting topic, I think.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/14/2006 1:41:02 PM >

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 1:01:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have drawn this analogy myself. I did come out to a gay friend and he was "shocked" as his was a life long monogamous relationship and he had stayed with his first mate. So that right there told me that most people do not understand this in our society. It maybe more acceptable in parts of Europe than it is here because many cultures in Europe are more liberal than we are when it comes to sexuality and openess. It is easy for people to make fun of masochists and make it synonmous with dislike of self, and that is one example.

We teach people to be very independent and self reliant here. If you "need" others or put their needs above your own this is viewed as an unhealthy thing. It is not a popular relationship dynamic. NOW calls BDSM abuse against women, ignoring that gay men and het men are submissive and that WIITWD is built upon consensuality. Women who submit and live it are seen as traitors to the feminist cause, men who do so are thought of as henpecked pussies,... Being a dominant is synonomous with domineering abusive bully

Seeing that the above is believed about us, and that people fear what they do not understand, I doubt these misconceptions will change overnight, and people will continue to titter behind their hands when one of us "comes" out to the vanilla world


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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 1:03:24 PM   
Owned1


Posts: 847
Joined: 7/6/2005
From: Toronto, Ontario
Status: offline 		i would suggest there is similarity to coming out as kinky to that of coming out regarding ones sexuality.  However i truly cannot answer as i have never had to come out as gay/lesbian/trans.

Some of my friends know about this side of me, but truthfully really dont want to hear it.  i am sure my parents have some idea but would not ask, nor would i discuss with them the private side of my life.

i have often wondered with the growth and acceptance of the kinksters whether we will see an uprising of those coming out as we have in the last decade or so with other marginalized groups.

The the thought of course moves to, would it make a difference if i were "out"?  Perhaps, i could wear a more obvious collar, sign of my ownership.  i could be with Master as He and i would like to be at all times rather than in private.

Its a great thought for discussion and contemplation

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 1:16:02 PM   
jezabelKH


Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline 		hello,

1. i was born in a lifestyle home so i don't have to worry about coming out, the cat was already out of that bag

2. for Master and tinkerbell{KH} they have very religious parents (Preachers), so W/we all decided to send a tastefull christmas card this year with a picture of all 3 of U/us on it with a simple printing under it "The Hussey Family". Those who want to know will call and ask and those who don't will not, but the point will be very clear because 1. the slaves will be wearing collars, and tastefull business dress clothes and 2. there will be 3 (poly) people on the card. hmmmmmmmmm.

sincerely,
jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
Property Of Master Ken

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 1:33:22 PM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I have not come "out" to anyone in my family or friends.  They would just think that I'm crazy or something is "wrong" with me.  It's best this way.

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 1:42:17 PM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		It's been my experience, and others may have different experiences, but people on the outside tend to have less of a problem with a gay lifestyle than they do with a bdsm lifestyle. When it sounds like it's a "oh, you and your girlfriend tie each other up during sex", it doesn't sound that bad, and they make their own connections as if it's experimental in a straight sex kind of way, but the second you start to explain that it's a lifestyle that you live your life in slavery to another person, the understanding is completely gone. There are very out gay friends of mine in the past I wouldn't have come "out" to because I realized that my acceptance of their lifestyle doesn't translate to an acceptance from them of my lifestyle.

When I came "out" to my family, it went badly. Very badly. It is not discussed anymore. There's a sense of pretending the conversation never came up. To bring it up again would cause the entire house of cards to fall back into the pile.

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 1:46:36 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I am kinky & bisexual. I do not advertise these facts, yet equally I do not hide them.


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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 2:03:11 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Hello HollyS,

In my family, most of them *know* that  I have a *different way of relating* to my Master.

My sprogs know that it's a TPE relationship and understand the implications. They haven't been *told* ; they just see the difference between how I relate and how their friend's parents relate and have grown with the dynamic, so to speak, and see it as a positive thing, a beneficial thing.

As for any sexual aspect, I wouldn't discuss that with anyone at all, anymore than I would have when I was a wife . How, when and where I get fucked has never been something I have wanted/needed/desired to share and it has little to do with the relationship, overall.

My sister is a submissive with a long standing dominant and my Mother told me that she's *quite jealous* (lol) of the relationship I have ....and she's in her seventies.

I haven't felt a desire to *come-out* as such, I just don't pull a veil over situations.  It's not as if it is anything awful or world-shattering....it's just a little curious, maybe.

I think the general attitude of my family is one of slight amazement and a teeny bit of awe, that SOMEONE actually manages to get me to do ANYTHING that I haven't an inclination to.

Regards, agirl






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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 2:36:09 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I've never been in the closet. I'm quite happy with who I am and people close to me know what I'm into though I don't wear a sandwich board advertising it to the world, though it wouldn't bother me to wear one if it was comfortable enough.

I do sometimes wonder if this being in the closet is more of an American thing with many parts of America being socially conservative.

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 2:50:00 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS


I remember how I felt hearing this and would like to hear from others.  When you realized that you were kinky, into D/s or identified as either a top or bottom, how did you feel?  If you are not "out" to your friends, family or collegues, would you share why not? For those that are, what was the process of revealing this part of your life like for you? If you are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, how did coming to understand yourself as kinky dovetail with your understanding of your sexuality?  Were they seperate or mutual processes? If you are out as gay/lesbian, do you agree that there is no equivilant for heterosexual people -- even "coming out" as kinky or into Dominance/submission?


Hi Holly,

Since the age of ten I've had an interest in what is commonly referred to as BDSM in this circle. The visions felt quite natural and seemed born more of the simultaneous progression of my imagination and budding sexuality than any particular outside influence in my formative years. Within my family I have always been respected as eccentric and unconventional in my mating stratagem, and so the gradual diffusion of the knowledge that I was "different" sexually and socially came as no real shock. In short, my taste in this vein interests more than alienates my family and friends, even if their vision of what I may be is somewhat skewed and sensational.

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 3:28:11 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		My brother and all my friends know that I am Pagan, Gorean with a liking for BDSM. Over a few years and numeroud discussions it would appear that for some "comming out" in either their sexuality, kinkiness or their Pagan religion is roughly the same. I does seem that the shock to both the system of the friends and family or themselves is dependant on firstly their own accepance on what they are and secondly their relationship and open mindedness of friends and family. There is no great divide in the "comming out". After talking  to a friend who is both Gay and Kinky, she said that each was unique for her but neither one was any more traumatic... Amongst my niche areas of Psych Counselling/Therapy, I deal with both occultists and BDSM/Gor folk. Still different cultures and nationalities may find this to be different..

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Master of Bruin Cottage

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 3:54:03 PM   
irishbynature


Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS

Many of you here know that I'm working on my doctorate in Psych. Recently while in class, my professor highlighted some of the special issues that affect various groups  who come seeking therapy. While discussing gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender clients, he said "There is no equivilant experience to coming out as gay or lesbian.  It is a purely unique experience which, if you are heterosexual, you will never understand. It is, however, your responsibility to develop appropriate empathy with clients as much as possible..."

I remember how I felt hearing this and would like to hear from others.  When you realized that you were kinky, into D/s or identified as either a top or bottom, how did you feel?  If you are not "out" to your friends, family or collegues, would you share why not? For those that are, what was the process of revealing this part of your life like for you?
~Holly

I had no idea I was 'kink' until I was around 37 years old. I had some heavy duty fantasies for years but was ashamed or thought them to be 'wrong.' (Catholic upbringing). I had also been reading a great deal of Freud in graduate school---and realizing he wasn't the total nutcase he was made out to be.

The person I 'came out' to was my best friend (Juliaoceania) because I felt she would not be judgemental and she wasn't. I don't tell family members because I think it would scare them. Unless they've crossed that bridge of "this is perfectly healthy and natural" ....I don't think they really 'get it.'

Good luck with your coursework!
Warmly,
Irishbynature


< Message edited by irishbynature -- 7/14/2006 3:55:52 PM >

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 4:29:05 PM   
ravn


Posts: 328
Joined: 3/16/2006
Status: offline 		haha! well, truthfully? there is NOTHING like seeing a father's face when He walks in on His little girl being flogged and fucked at the same time.
He walked in, saw it, and walked back out.
Asked me at dinner if i enjoyed it, i told him that every minute was worth it and that was the end of it....lol.

Now my GRANDPARENTS on the other hand!


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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 4:36:40 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I have only come out to one "vanilla" friend, and my sister might know, but we don't talk about it. I just see no reason to tell my family (my father for sure) because the topic of sex and how it affects our personal lives just never comes up in my family.

Plus, no matter how much I explained it, I am convinced that my father would think he "did something wrong", or feel guilty on some level if I told him, and I don't want to burden him.

My "vanilla" friends I haven't told for the same reasons, or because I think they just would not understand. Maybe I'll tell one or two more as time goes by, maybe not.
 

I can certainly understand this - I think wanting to keep sex off the discussion table with one's extended family is pretty common. That being said, it's been discussed in various threads that D/s is about so much more than sex, just like being gay is about so much more than which gender one sleeps with.  So is it that you feel your family or friends might focus in on the sexual part to the exclusion of the other aspects?  And is this what makes it an "off-limits" discussion, even if you personally take a more holistic view of dominance and submission?

quote:

  It always makes me stop and wonder why when someone says they are "coming out" to their family, etc. - I'd maybe need to know more about their family, etc. to make this judgment, but my initial reaction internally is usually: Why? Why do you feel a need to do this? Are they looking for "permission"? Do they stop to consider who they might hurt, as well as how good they might feel after they"unburden" themselves of their "secret"?


For many people it's about living an authentic life and being honest about who they feel they are.  I won't speak for anyone else - the answers regarding why are as varied as the people answering.  I would ask, however, how a person is hurt by someone else saying "This is how I choose to live my life"?  Declaring a truth about oneself is just that and the reasons people often keep orientation a secret is due to personal shame or fear of negative retribution.  I guess my question is if there is nothing about being into bdsm to be ashamed of or no reason to fear reprisal for being kinky, why stay silent? 

~Holly



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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 4:43:46 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline 		I consider the last 5 years of my life as a coming out that is almost synonymous with the experience my gay and lesbian friends have gone through.

Whenever you have to censor a part of your personality, because the general public will not understand, and/or it may cause issues for you in your family, or at your workplace, you can be said to be in the closet.

I believe coming to accept, and have pride, in your differences, and then taking the plunge and revealling that side of you to trusted others is a coming out process.

Many gay people begin immersing themselves in friendships, and events, with like-minded others in an attempt to understand themselves better, and feel more at home. Many people into kink, or swinging, or furry-culture, do the same. I think they are all coming out.

I think your professor was short-sighted.

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 5:07:23 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS
I would ask, however, how a person is hurt by someone else saying "This is how I choose to live my life"?  Declaring a truth about oneself is just that and the reasons people often keep orientation a secret is due to personal shame or fear of negative retribution.  I guess my question is if there is nothing about being into bdsm to be ashamed of or no reason to fear reprisal for being kinky, why stay silent? 

~Holly


I think this is the important question to ask before telling someone about this aspect of your lifestyle. Will it help? Will it harm?

In the case of my friends, I felt that it would be dishonest of me to hide it, and that as friends they had the right to support and know me completely. It's the same thing I give back to them.

They are my sounding board, my shoulder to cry on, my safecalls, my safety net...and most of them love the stories of someone being able to silence me, or check my cheeky attitude. (Not to mention, most of them are gay, and love the outfits, and/or lifestyle as well. LOL)

In the case of my family, I have so far chosen not to come out. I don't want my family to have to wonder if I am going to be injured by playing with the wrong man. My father worries, far too much, about me being a single female alone in the big city.

In time, when they have met, and grown to like and trust, the man I will consider my master, then our D/s dynamic will slowly reveal itself. The kinky sex, likely won't. There isn't a desire in my family to discuss our sex lives, so no need to bring it up.

Not everyone needs or wants to know...and for me it's about accessing comfort levels on a need to know basis.

I am not going to lie about it, but I am not going to ram it down anyone's throat, either.



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quote:


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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 5:15:27 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Holly - This is a very good discussion topic, and thanks for bringing it up.

Well, if I thought my family or friends were interested, we might talk about it. For me, it's like talking to them about my interest, exclusive to theirs. I usually end up talking to them about things we have in common when we see eachother. I don't feel "marginalized" by this, and it may have something to do with being submissive. Nonetheless, I am okay with it.  I also feel it's just respecting our respective rights to our own privacy about sexual matters.

My family already knows I read books about sexual topics, so maybe they wouldn't think it was all that weird - they never acted shocked, per se, about this, but do regard it as slightly "unconventional", and rarely seem to want to dwell on the topic. 

Insisting we discuss it simply because it's a part of "who I am" is something I view as: Invasive to what they have already given me as an indication of as stepping inside their own 'privacy boundaries'. To me, it's simple etiquette - regardless of whether or not Emily Post ever wrote a column about it. Also, I've never been much of an activist (except in the case of abused unmentionables, an area where I do volunteer work).

I really do think that if people just left other people alone as far as how they practice their sexuality (except for pedophiles) the world might be easier for many to live in. If people want others to respect their rights - then I always think a good place to start is by respecting theirs, and I do think people have a right to keep some things private, and not necessarily nave to hear what they themselves view as private matters from others (depending on the topic). I'll admit, this doesn't always work in terms of "liberating" a particular social group's right to do whatever, but sometimes  it does.

I know my views here might seem like a fundamental contradiction logically, because as far as "sexual rights" go, gays, for lack of a better reference group, (as I recall) didn't get much notice as far as progressing their rights until they had the Stonewall riots, etc. - and even now there are groups like ACT UP that are "in your face" about gay rights - and they've (I believe) made a positive difference as far as progressing gay rights, overall, simply because they do get media attention, and enough of that, repeatedly, will inch in some progress (and many inches do a mile)...

I do feel, however, that being gay is not a choice. And I feel that choosing to practice bdsm is definitely a choice (as far as the orientation itself,  I am not sure - I think maybe it's a coin toss between nature and nurture - who knows? is my view). For me, if it's a choice, then someone else has just as much right to make their own choice regarding whether or not they want to hear me discuss it with them. 

The hard fact also, I think, that some can perhaps have a hard time dealing with is: There are people who are never, ever going to accept this lifestyle, no matter what. I don't see myself as "giving up" or "giving in", I see it as saving myself wasted time, overall - I think the world just isn't gonna march to my drummer completely - not in my lifetime anyway - and there really isn't much reason it should *(because it doesn't disrupt my life much that is the case). If it did, I might feel differently.

Personally, someone declaring they are bdsm oriented is about as shocking as someone letting me know they like to play chess (it's not). It seems to really disturb some other people, though - and I think that's okay. I just don't talk to those people about it (like I said, I am not much of an activist).  

If  were a therapist, and someone felt a deep, urgent need for thier particular family or friends or employer or whoever, to understand them, I would undoubtedly try to help them with this (maybe, it wuld depend on the person and circumstances). For me, feeling accepted or needing acceptance from family and friends who lack this orientation has not (so far) been a problem (although it might be for someone else, in which case, they might need to talk to someone about it, and how to "come out" with the least amount of emotional upheaval for those involved).

I might ask them to accept themselves and thry to help them do that more (which is probably a lot harder for some, if their family doesn't or has never accepter them for whatever reason) - but I would ask them why it is so important to have other peole's approval. Needing this is not liberating, it's the opposite (at least to me). I can see where it might matter to some people, though - and I am not a therapist. 

I really do (in case there was a question) state my views here with all due respect and good luck with your Ph.d. program. This is a good discussion topic.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/14/2006 6:14:02 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 5:59:40 PM   
Owned1


Posts: 847
Joined: 7/6/2005
From: Toronto, Ontario
Status: offline 		I do feel, however, that being gay is not a choice. And I feel that choosing to practice bdsm is definitely a choice (as far as the orientationitself, maybe it's a coin toss between nature and nurutre - who knows? is my view). For me, someone declaring they are bdsm oriented is about as shocking as someone letting me know they like to play chess (it's not). It seems to really disturb some other people, though - and I happen to think that's okay. I just don't talk to those people about it (like I said, I am not much of an activist).----end quote

i must disagree here, i do not see the way i am wired as a choice.  i was very unhappy before i found the real me.  As with a gay or lesbian individual i could choose to not live the kinky life however i would be just as unhappy as if it were my gender preference.

for some i suppose it maybe a choice, as with anything however for myself it is not a choice.



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~~in His Chains i am free~~

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Coming "out" in kink - 7/14/2006 6:06:01 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		There are as many views on whether or not a bdsm orientation is a choice or not. One look through the thread files on that topic is evidence of that. Many feel how you feel; I have not made my mind up on that question yet - as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out.  

I made that comparison only because I lacked a better reference; it's not really germane to the central point anyway - which is how people deal (or not) with "coming out."  I don't care what other people do or how they want to handle it - as long as they don't care what I do, as far as that goes. I've had some people call me "cowardly" for my views - my answer is the same as it's always been: I don't think it's anyone's business, and they don't know  my personal situation (nor do I know their situation).

I don't need anyone's approval of my bdsm orientation or activities. To feel I need that would indeed be less than liberating for me. But to me, spending hours or days (or years) explaining why I think I might be this way, or what I do, and risking alienating people I may care about in the process (or who have, say, a say-so re: whether I keep a job, etc.) - just isn't worth the hassle or misunderstanding or hurt  it could cause. Personally, this lack of being able to "come out" hasn't really seemed to affect my life (so far) one way or the other. 

-Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/14/2006 6:53:42 PM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Owned1)
Profile   Post #: 20
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