RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student

RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (Full Version)

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Lucylastic -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/21/2014 5:16:40 AM)
potential psychos thinking they can kill with immunity YAY

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/21/2014 6:48:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Point of reference. The kid didn't break into the house. Per the police investigation, that the door was unlocked and left open. And we had a....massive...debate on whether 'an open door' constituted 'breaking and entering' exactly, since nothing was broken nor forced. That the kid was in the garage and never made it to the 'dwelling' area of the house (another hotly debated issue at the time this came to the news). Point of reference, regardless of any "massive debate" you're wrong. http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/burglary-overview.html Burglary is typically defined as the unlawful entry into almost any structure (not just a home or business) with the intent to commit any crime inside (not just theft/larceny). No physical breaking and entering is required; the offender may simply trespass through an open door. Unlike robbery, which involves use of force or fear to obtain another person's property, there is usually no victim present during a burglary. Breaking and Entry The first element of burglary involves the burglar breaking into and entering a structure. The breaking-in can occur in two ways: actual and constructive. Actual breaking involves physical force: picking a lock or kicking a door in, for example. It could even be a very slight use of force, such as pushing open a door thats been left ajar. Constructive breaking, on the other hand, entails means of gaining entry that dont use physical force: threats, blackmail or fraud, for example. However a burglar breaks in to the structure, they must also enter the structure in order to satisfy this element. The entry can be minimal; the burglar doesnt have to actually walk into a building in order to commit a burglary. Sticking a hand through a window counts as an entry sufficient to support a charge of burglary.

cloudboy -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/21/2014 8:00:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: smileforme50 My ex-bf was totally into guns and was always talking about how he thought it was good that he had them in case anyone ever broke into the house. This used to drive me crazy. Anytime I hear people talking about how they have to diligently protect their homes with an mini-arsenal of weapons, I nervously back away from them. Sure....Markus Kaarma probably used excessive force, BUT....like you said, if that kid hadn't tried to break in to the house to begin with, he would still be alive. I don't think "baiting" has anything to do with it. I've had female clients with the same concern as you. Their men, though, tended to be paranoid and unstable. Scary shit, guys sleeping with guns nearby in case anything goes bump in the night.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/21/2014 8:46:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I've had female clients with the same concern as you. Their men, though, tended to be paranoid and unstable. Scary shit, guys sleeping with guns nearby in case anything goes bump in the night. There's being vigilant, and then there's being paranoid. Just because you keep a gun nearby, it doesn't necessarily make you paranoid or unstable. I have a gun that I keep locked in my night-stand. It's loaded, and I can get to it relatively quickly. Does that make me unstable? The rest of the story, I live in a nice neighborhood that's unfortunately close to a not so nice one. The people living in that other neighborhood have realized that stealing from each other is much less productive then traveling a mile or two and stealing from my neighborhood. I've had one attempted push-in robbery. I found a man coming in through a basement window that he'd pried open one night. And a few years ago we had someone in our town setting fire to occupied homes in the middle of the night.

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/21/2014 8:54:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I've had female clients with the same concern as you. Their men, though, tended to be paranoid and unstable. Scary shit, guys sleeping with guns nearby in case anything goes bump in the night. There's being vigilant, and then there's being paranoid. Just because you keep a gun nearby, it doesn't necessarily make you paranoid or unstable. I have a gun that I keep locked in my night-stand. It's loaded, and I can get to it relatively quickly. Does that make me unstable? The rest of the story, I live in a nice neighborhood that's unfortunately close to a not so nice one. The people living in that other neighborhood have realized that stealing from each other is much less productive then traveling a mile or two and stealing from my neighborhood. I've had one attempted push-in robbery. I found a man coming in through a basement window that he'd pried open one night. And a few years ago we had someone in our town setting fire to occupied homes in the middle of the night. I live a block from the worst part of town, where even the cops hesitate (I am told) to go alone.

Musicmystery -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/22/2014 8:25:58 AM)
You're always whining about how dangerous your home is so you can crow about the importance of domestic armories. Why don't you just move to somewhere nice?

joether -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/23/2014 9:51:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: joether Point of reference. The kid didn't break into the house. Per the police investigation, that the door was unlocked and left open. And we had a....massive...debate on whether 'an open door' constituted 'breaking and entering' exactly, since nothing was broken nor forced. That the kid was in the garage and never made it to the 'dwelling' area of the house (another hotly debated issue at the time this came to the news). Point of reference, regardless of any "massive debate" you're wrong. http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/burglary-overview.html Burglary is typically defined as the unlawful entry into almost any structure (not just a home or business) with the intent to commit any crime inside (not just theft/larceny). No physical breaking and entering is required; the offender may simply trespass through an open door. Unlike robbery, which involves use of force or fear to obtain another person's property, there is usually no victim present during a burglary. See the bold part? Prove intent. Since we cant talk to the suspect without a 'Speak with Dead' spell, it might be tough. However, after RESEARCHING and INVESTIGATING, police investigators came to the conclusion the boy was in the garage for reasons that had no intention of causing harm or destruction to the people in the house, or their property. So if its burglary, you have the burden of evidence to argue here. An you dont have it! quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted Breaking and Entry The first element of burglary involves the burglar breaking into and entering a structure. The breaking-in can occur in two ways: actual and constructive. Actual breaking involves physical force: picking a lock or kicking a door in, for example. It could even be a very slight use of force, such as pushing open a door thats been left ajar. Constructive breaking, on the other hand, entails means of gaining entry that don't use physical force: threats, blackmail or fraud, for example. And neither of these apply. The door was left....WIDE OPEN and UNLOCKED. Maybe I didn't say that a few times already, right? So why would he bust up a door, that was already wide open enough for him to step through without touching it? Again...you have the burden of evidence to prove. And you...DON'T HAVE IT! quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted However a burglar breaks in to the structure, they must also enter the structure in order to satisfy this element. The entry can be minimal; the burglar doesnt have to actually walk into a building in order to commit a burglary. Sticking a hand through a window counts as an entry sufficient to support a charge of burglary. As shown before you made this silly argument, the police already made the investigation months ago. They arrested the guy and handled him to the prosecution for trial. He was found guilty of killing that boy whom had no evil nor harmful intentions. Did the kid do something stupid and unwise? Yes. Has it happen when someone was lurking for legitimate or 'easily explained' reasons got called by gun owners whom remained in the house and let the police deal with it? Yes. In fact many times more. Because gun owners, like non-gun owners try to do the sane and safe approach to stuff like this.

tj444 -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/23/2014 11:45:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted Mike, the homeowner was a nut-case, there's no denying that. He wanted to kill someone, and he found a way to do it that he thought would let him skate. He deserves his prison stay. But baiting a trap only works if there's someone out looking for the bait. The kid was trespassing. He entered a building he had no business being in. And he was most likely there to steal. He didn't deserve to die, but he's not an innocent victim. If I leave my keys in the ignition, you're not allowed to steal my car. If I drop my wallet on the sidewalk, it's stealing if you take it and don't attempt to find the owner. Just because the homeowner left valuables in plain sight, that doesn't mean the kid was in anyway justified in trying to take them. Everyone likes to complain about victim blaming, but the simple fact of the matter is, if the kid hadn't taken the bait, he'd still be alive. I learned an old saw, many years ago: "Locks only stop honest people". I remember living in an apartment building and going home.. I walked up to my door, put the key in the lock, opened the door and walked in.. I noticed art on the wall and different furnishings.. wtf is going on?? OMG! I got off on the wrong floor and opened the suite directly above mine... good thing that was when I lived in Canada and the resident (who very likely didn't have any firearms) wasn't home.. needless to say I hightailed it outta there... just goes to prove that locks don't always keep honest people out.. just sayin'

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/23/2014 3:23:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted Mike, the homeowner was a nut-case, there's no denying that. He wanted to kill someone, and he found a way to do it that he thought would let him skate. He deserves his prison stay. But baiting a trap only works if there's someone out looking for the bait. The kid was trespassing. He entered a building he had no business being in. And he was most likely there to steal. He didn't deserve to die, but he's not an innocent victim. If I leave my keys in the ignition, you're not allowed to steal my car. If I drop my wallet on the sidewalk, it's stealing if you take it and don't attempt to find the owner. Just because the homeowner left valuables in plain sight, that doesn't mean the kid was in anyway justified in trying to take them. Everyone likes to complain about victim blaming, but the simple fact of the matter is, if the kid hadn't taken the bait, he'd still be alive. I learned an old saw, many years ago: "Locks only stop honest people". I remember living in an apartment building and going home.. I walked up to my door, put the key in the lock, opened the door and walked in.. I noticed art on the wall and different furnishings.. wtf is going on?? OMG! I got off on the wrong floor and opened the suite directly above mine... good thing that was when I lived in Canada and the resident (who very likely didn't have any firearms) wasn't home.. needless to say I hightailed it outta there... just goes to prove that locks don't always keep honest people out.. just sayin' You key opened someone else's door? That is incredible. Thank God I don't live in a country were the landlord puts the same lock on everyone's door.

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/23/2014 3:25:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted Mike, the homeowner was a nut-case, there's no denying that. He wanted to kill someone, and he found a way to do it that he thought would let him skate. He deserves his prison stay. But baiting a trap only works if there's someone out looking for the bait. The kid was trespassing. He entered a building he had no business being in. And he was most likely there to steal. He didn't deserve to die, but he's not an innocent victim. If I leave my keys in the ignition, you're not allowed to steal my car. If I drop my wallet on the sidewalk, it's stealing if you take it and don't attempt to find the owner. Just because the homeowner left valuables in plain sight, that doesn't mean the kid was in anyway justified in trying to take them. Everyone likes to complain about victim blaming, but the simple fact of the matter is, if the kid hadn't taken the bait, he'd still be alive. I learned an old saw, many years ago: "Locks only stop honest people". I remember living in an apartment building and going home.. I walked up to my door, put the key in the lock, opened the door and walked in.. I noticed art on the wall and different furnishings.. wtf is going on?? OMG! I got off on the wrong floor and opened the suite directly above mine... good thing that was when I lived in Canada and the resident (who very likely didn't have any firearms) wasn't home.. needless to say I hightailed it outta there... just goes to prove that locks don't always keep honest people out.. just sayin' If it had been FD's apartment you could have had your head smashed in with his illegal homemade mace.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/25/2014 12:52:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You're always whining about how dangerous your home is so you can crow about the importance of domestic armories. Why don't you just move to somewhere nice? I realize this was directed at Bama, but I'll answer for myself. Do you tell women who've been raped that they shouldn't be dressed so provocatively? Because your above comment sure sounds like victim blaming to me. Why the fuck should I have to move? I bought this house with my wife. We made it a home. Now my wife is gone, and this is the last really substantial thing we bought together. So I should just leave that behind because some thugs think that they deserve to steal my things?

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/25/2014 10:20:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You're always whining about how dangerous your home is so you can crow about the importance of domestic armories. Why don't you just move to somewhere nice? I realize this was directed at Bama, but I'll answer for myself. Do you tell women who've been raped that they shouldn't be dressed so provocatively? Because your above comment sure sounds like victim blaming to me. Why the fuck should I have to move? I bought this house with my wife. We made it a home. Now my wife is gone, and this is the last really substantial thing we bought together. So I should just leave that behind because some thugs think that they deserve to steal my things? I don't crow about how dangerous my neighborhood is. I simply state a fact. For several years I maintained the only outpost of civilization in my neighborhood, it is now being taken back by civilized people, why cut and run now. Other than that you said exactly what I would have wanted to, including this being the house my late wife wanted so badly.

thishereboi -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/25/2014 4:03:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You're always whining about how dangerous your home is so you can crow about the importance of domestic armories. Why don't you just move to somewhere nice? wow, why didn't someone think of that sooner. I bet all the folks in Detroit who think they need a gun to stay safe didn't realize all they had to do was move somewhere nice. They will be so happy to hear that.

tweakabelle -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/25/2014 9:26:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I don't crow about how dangerous my neighborhood is. I simply state a fact. For several years I maintained the only outpost of civilization in my neighborhood, it is now being taken back by civilized people, why cut and run now. I rather suspect that a crime-free, safe neighbourhood is the last thing you want. My guess is that if your neighbourhood ends up crime free you will pack up and leave for more familiar surrounds. I rather suspect that removing the rationalisation for your domestic arsenal would leave your life empty and meaningless. Having a good excuse to fondle and caress your guns is an essential part of your everyday happiness. Life without it holds no thrills or attraction for you at all.

thishereboi -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/26/2014 5:07:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I don't crow about how dangerous my neighborhood is. I simply state a fact. For several years I maintained the only outpost of civilization in my neighborhood, it is now being taken back by civilized people, why cut and run now. I rather suspect that a crime-free, safe neighbourhood is the last thing you want. My guess is that if your neighbourhood ends up crime free you will pack up and leave for more familiar surrounds. I rather suspect that removing the rationalisation for your domestic arsenal would leave your life empty and meaningless. Having a good excuse to fondle and caress your guns is an essential part of your everyday happiness. Life without it holds no thrills or attraction for you at all. I rather suspect you don't have a fucking clue what he wants but in order to make yourself look more civilized you will pretend you do. But just for shits and giggles, this guy doesn't want to move either. http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2014/12/21/detroit-blight-neighborhoods/20705355/ Perhaps with your physic abilities you can tell us all the real reason he doesn't want to go. edited to add. I am not sure why so many people think the answer to any problem is to pick up and move but I know from experience it's not always that easy. If it was Detroit would be empty at this point.

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/26/2014 8:36:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I don't crow about how dangerous my neighborhood is. I simply state a fact. For several years I maintained the only outpost of civilization in my neighborhood, it is now being taken back by civilized people, why cut and run now. I rather suspect that a crime-free, safe neighbourhood is the last thing you want. My guess is that if your neighbourhood ends up crime free you will pack up and leave for more familiar surrounds. I rather suspect that removing the rationalisation for your domestic arsenal would leave your life empty and meaningless. Having a good excuse to fondle and caress your guns is an essential part of your everyday happiness. Life without it holds no thrills or attraction for you at all. As always your suspicions about me are 100% wrong.

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/26/2014 8:39:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I don't crow about how dangerous my neighborhood is. I simply state a fact. For several years I maintained the only outpost of civilization in my neighborhood, it is now being taken back by civilized people, why cut and run now. I rather suspect that a crime-free, safe neighbourhood is the last thing you want. My guess is that if your neighbourhood ends up crime free you will pack up and leave for more familiar surrounds. I rather suspect that removing the rationalisation for your domestic arsenal would leave your life empty and meaningless. Having a good excuse to fondle and caress your guns is an essential part of your everyday happiness. Life without it holds no thrills or attraction for you at all. I rather suspect you don't have a fucking clue what he wants but in order to make yourself look more civilized you will pretend you do. But just for shits and giggles, this guy doesn't want to move either. http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2014/12/21/detroit-blight-neighborhoods/20705355/ Perhaps with your physic abilities you can tell us all the real reason he doesn't want to go. edited to add. I am not sure why so many people think the answer to any problem is to pick up and move but I know from experience it's not always that easy. If it was Detroit would be empty at this point. Another symptom of the disorder that leads to this is a golden discoloration of the spinal column

Musicmystery -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/26/2014 2:07:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You're always whining about how dangerous your home is so you can crow about the importance of domestic armories. Why don't you just move to somewhere nice? I realize this was directed at Bama, but I'll answer for myself. Do you tell women who've been raped that they shouldn't be dressed so provocatively? Because your above comment sure sounds like victim blaming to me. Why the fuck should I have to move? I bought this house with my wife. We made it a home. Now my wife is gone, and this is the last really substantial thing we bought together. So I should just leave that behind because some thugs think that they deserve to steal my things? Way to say things I didn't say, let alone someone to whom I didn't say them. Difference being -- you're not always whining about it. That's not "blaming the victim," but rather, stop playing the victim. And...90% of what Bama says is bullshit. When called on it, he goes off on tangents. Apparently, that's a strategy you're contemplating as well. I love my home. That wasn't always the case. And I simply wouldn't live long-term somewhere I didn't love. If you would, I can only say we disagree. Extremely.

Redhusky -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 12:36:41 AM)
Everybody has right to protect there home, however there is a fine line between protecting and revenge. If you successfully protect it, you dont go out and hunt down the criminal if you successfully protected your home, thats for me sound revenge. Now, i want to know , that did this man really set up a trap for a burglar (because all this comments are making me confuse if he did or not ) ? If he did, then both are guilty. There is no argue that the boy is guilty , however you can say he was manipulated.

blnymph -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 2:09:19 AM)
getting a sixpack of beers picked from your open garage NEVER can give anyone a legitimate right to take a human life are you completely mad over there??? is there no difference between juvenile foolishness and a capital crime in your minds and law system?

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