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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/2/2014 7:11:37 AM

KenDckey

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McDonald's should have Ronald McDonald banned....it makes everyone with the name McDonald seem like clowns. LOL Where does it all stop? I believe it is all sillyness....at least for the most part.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/2/2014 8:03:06 AM

vincentML

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quote:

The OP makes more sense if one doesn't read 'Myth' as a falsehood or lie, but takes the more useful and relevant Joseph Campbell use of the word as a culturally significant story or concept that guides thinking and world perception. From the earliest conflicts of the 1500s, Aboriginal Americans were considered formidable adversaries.

But, there is a great difference between formidable and worthy. Japanese soldiers were formidable fighters but we hardly considered them worthy.

quote:

To take a word that identifies the group as emblematic of your team's competitive nature and accomplishments is about the least possible insulting use of a group label imaginable.

That would be true if the current living conditions of aboriginals in the Western Hemisphere were not so abominable. When you consider the comparison using the "myth" of bygone days seems insulting. It seems to me the prevailing image of the aboriginals is that they were drunken savages who lusted after white women. Oh wait. Maybe that was the white cultural image of black men. Not much difference. is there?

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/2/2014 8:52:35 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

McDonald's should have Ronald McDonald banned....it makes everyone with the name McDonald seem like clowns. LOL Where does it all stop? I believe it is all sillyness....at least for the most part.

We can always depend on a simple mind to bring forth a simple minded statement.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/2/2014 2:33:08 PM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

McDonald's should have Ronald McDonald banned....it makes everyone with the name McDonald seem like clowns. LOL Where does it all stop? I believe it is all sillyness....at least for the most part.

We can always depend on a simple mind to bring forth a simple minded statement.

Simple is often the best way to express things to the masses. When I was in the Army, one of the states ruled that anything that in the eye of tthe beholder was pornographic. All the churches sued each other as did all the magazines and newspapers. Simple solution to a very complex issue. The law was revoked within weeks.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/2/2014 3:46:40 PM

Marc2b

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Some thoughts:

Comparing the use of tribal or individual's names for weapon systems versus an obvious racial slur is a false equivalence. It would be like comparing a team named the Celtics versus naming the team the Drunken Micks.

I don't consider the concept of the Worthy Adversary, weather applied to Native Americans or anyone else to be a myth, but it is still no excuse to spit on those who were treated like shit despite their adversary's supposed respect and who are all to often still treated like shit. If those who are opposed to a name change for Washington's football team truly consider the Native American to be worthy of respect (I would hope they no longer consider them an adversary), then they should want to pick a truly respectful name and not a racial slur.

Here's a thought I just had: What was the name of the Tribe that lived on the land that is now the city of Washington? Are any of them still alive? If so, let ask them to name the team if they want. That would be showing some respect.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/2/2014 4:22:03 PM

PeonForHer

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FR

What gets me about these sorts of debates is people so frequently want to get into big, ponderous, clunking, definition/history/roots type debates about them. To my mind, these aren't relevant. The thing is to avoid going around *pissing people off*, if at all possible. What's required is a bit of awareness of people's sensitivities, that's all. The point is not to step on their corns. There's no need for it.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/2/2014 4:37:06 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The worthy native adversary is a romanticized myth developed by the victors to look back at the native genocide in the Americas through rose colored glasses. In all of our 20th C wars and currently we denigrate the enemy through comedy, slurs and propaganda. It is really pretty much the nature of boys fighting in a war and the advantage for Media to sell to advertisers.

Good post Vincent.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/2/2014 5:14:36 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

What gets me about these sorts of debates is people so frequently want to get into big, ponderous, clunking, definition/history/roots type debates about them. To my mind, these aren't relevant. The thing is to avoid going around *pissing people off*, if at all possible. What's required is a bit of awareness of people's sensitivities, that's all. The point is not to step on their corns. There's no need for it.

A common straw man argument in debates is the "they weren't saints" tactic, as if this somehow excuses what happened. Truth is, yes, Native Americans engaged in murder, rape, slavery, conquest, etc, same as every other ethnicity/culture that has ever existed. The Europeans were able to defeat the Native Americans relatively quickly not because they were any more or less evil but for three reasons.

The Europeans had a more advanced technology. They had a greater social cohesion, allowing them to command greater numbers (this was helped along by European diseases wiping out whole populations of Native Americans). They had an ideology - Christianity - that insisted they go forth and convert the heathens by any means possible. Combine that with their concurrent discoveries of coffee and refined sugar and it is easy to understand why Europe went on a conquering spree.

Given the universality of human nature, I have no doubt that had the advantages been reversed, then you might well be living in New Iroquois.

And none of that should really matter, at least not on this issue.

The misdeeds of another do not excuse the misdeeds of oneself. We can't change the past but we can change the future by changing the present. Changing the name of the Washington team would be a small step but it is a step that needs to be taken.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 9:22:15 AM

thompsonx

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Given the universality of human nature,

Would you have any validation for this assanine assumption?

I have no doubt that had the advantages been reversed, then you might well be living in New Iroquois.

By what metric do you arrive at that conclulsion? If we look at the iroquois confederation we can see that their reach clearly exceeded their grasp. They seemed to have recognized that and restrained themselves. While the counter example of the europeans grasping all within their reach. Granted over time and after exterminating the original inhabitants the europeans were able to consolodate their grasp on that reach.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 3:30:37 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Would you have any validation for this assanine assumption?

I reject your presumption of an assumption and its unnecessarily hostile characterization. I direct you to make a casual perusal of human history (ancient, recent, yesterday) and take note of the fact that (despite the occasional exception) humans repeat the same patterns of behavior - as individuals, as groups, as societies - over and over ad nauseam.

quote:

By what metric do you arrive at that conclulsion? If we look at the iroquois confederation we can see that their reach clearly exceeded their grasp. They seemed to have recognized that and restrained themselves. While the counter example of the europeans grasping all within their reach. Granted over time and after exterminating the original inhabitants the europeans were able to consolodate their grasp on that reach.

The point was not that the Iroquois would conquer England in such circumstances but that had they the power to do so they - given human nature - may well have. Power seeks to expand. That was the point. I only picked the Iroquois as an example because I live in New York. Given the counter factual circumstance and the vagaries of history (horseshoe nail) Peon might also have ended up in New Delaware.

Still, as a counter factual, it is an interesting thought. Had the Native American tribes the more advanced technology than the rest of the world in the 1400's, who can truly know how different history would have turned out? Given the human propensity to bully the weak, who is to say that they wouldn't have sailed east to colonize the wild, untamed land of Europe and, of course, bring civilization to the poor benighted natives? Then again, maybe they would have headed west to colonize East Asia instead. The possibilities are endless. What is certain is that people would have continued to behave like people.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 4:14:10 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

Changing the name of the Washington team would be a small step but it is a step that needs to be taken.

I think it would be a small and harmless step. It would be the well-mannered thing to do. Don't make a big deal of it, just do it, and move on.

I do very much believe in good manners in social policy - strange, not to say trivial, though that may sound. As a sociologist friend of mine once said, 'good manners lubricate social interaction'. (He really did speak like that, bless him.) It's like a bit of a handshake and a tiny, tiny hint of, 'I'm sorry, that was somewhat shitty, what happened, back then'. Such little things can help an awful lot, IMO. You go to a pub some time later and find, to your surprise, that there are black blokes and white blokes sitting together, as pals, the edge between them now fluffed away just enough for that to happen.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 4:28:06 PM

Musicmystery

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I agree.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 4:56:32 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

I think it would be a small and harmless step. It would be the well-mannered thing to do. Don't make a big deal of it, just do it, and move on.

I do very much believe in good manners in social policy - strange, not to say trivial, though that may sound. As a sociologist friend of mine once said, 'good manners lubricate social interaction'. (He really did speak like that, bless him.) It's like a bit of a handshake and a tiny, tiny hint of, 'I'm sorry, that was somewhat shitty, what happened, back then'. Such little things can help an awful lot, IMO. You go to a pub some time later and find, to your surprise, that there are black blokes and white blokes sitting together, as pals, the edge between them now fluffed away just enough for that to happen.

I agree. Sometime it is just a manner of manners and yet, there are people who do make a big deal out of it. Such is the power of privilege and tradition. Still, I remain hopeful that eventually the right thing will be done and the New Onodaga (the capital of New Iroquois) Lacrosse Team will drop the name "Pastyskins," despite their claim that it honors the English as worthy opponents.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 5:06:28 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Still, I remain hopeful that eventually the right thing will be done and the New Onodaga (the capital of New Iroquois) Lacrosse Team will drop the name "Pastyskins," despite their claim that it honors the English as worthy opponents.

Hoy, watch it, you. I had a suntan a few years ago. I have the dates written down and photographs to prove it!

'Pastyskins'. I love it!

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 5:40:14 PM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Would you have any validation for this assanine assumption?

I reject your presumption of an assumption and its unnecessarily hostile characterization.
Bite me! And take your faux indignation and park it where the sun don't shine.
I made no presumption. Pointing out an assanine assumption is hardly hostile in nature.

I direct you to make a casual perusal of human history (ancient, recent, yesterday) and take note of the fact that (despite the occasional exception) humans repeat the same patterns of behavior - as individuals, as groups, as societies - over and over ad nauseam.

Perhaps if you were to read what I posted you might understand that historically you are mistaken as the examples point out.

quote:

By what metric do you arrive at that conclulsion? If we look at the iroquois confederation we can see that their reach clearly exceeded their grasp. They seemed to have recognized that and restrained themselves. While the counter example of the europeans grasping all within their reach. Granted over time and after exterminating the original inhabitants the europeans were able to consolodate their grasp on that reach.

The point was not that the Iroquois would conquer England in such circumstances but that had they the power to do so they - given human nature - may well have.

That was not what I said. I am not speaking of the iroquois going to england. I am speaking of expanding their home teritory. Which history shows us that they had the ability to do but did not. While there are many cases of powerful nations absorbing weaker nations there is also the historical counter point. Witness the creation of the state of brazil.

Power seeks to expand. That was the point.

No, it was an eronious assumption on your part. Some does some does not. There is sufficient historical evidence that not every one is an alexander,ceaser or temujin. Some governments actually peacefully coexist with their neighbors. Look up andora which spends less than $5 bux a year on national defense.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 7/3/2014 5:41:13 PM >

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 7:24:11 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

quote:

quote:

I think it would be a small and harmless step. It would be the well-mannered thing to do. Don't make a big deal of it, just do it, and move on.

I do very much believe in good manners in social policy - strange, not to say trivial, though that may sound. As a sociologist friend of mine once said, 'good manners lubricate social interaction'. (He really did speak like that, bless him.) It's like a bit of a handshake and a tiny, tiny hint of, 'I'm sorry, that was somewhat shitty, what happened, back then'. Such little things can help an awful lot, IMO. You go to a pub some time later and find, to your surprise, that there are black blokes and white blokes sitting together, as pals, the edge between them now fluffed away just enough for that to happen.

I agree. Sometime it is just a manner of manners and yet, there are people who do make a big deal out of it. Such is the power of privilege and tradition. Still, I remain hopeful that eventually the right thing will be done and the New Onodaga (the capital of New Iroquois) Lacrosse Team will drop the name "Pastyskins," despite their claim that it honors the English as worthy opponents.

As I live in the middle of that territory (between the Onondagas and the Oneidas), I can tell you that "Iroquois" is the French name and they don't like it. Their name is Haudenosaunee.

As long as we're at it.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/3/2014 7:26:00 PM >

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/3/2014 7:43:06 PM

Marc2b

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Actually most of the Iroquois (which is a hell of a lot easier to spell) I know, or know of, call themselves by their individual tribal names, Seneca, Cayuga, etc.

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/4/2014 4:49:48 AM

Musicmystery

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And not part of the "Iroquois."

Hell, the Onondagas, Oneidas and Mohawks I know call themselves by their personal names, like Joe, Vicky, Tom, Beth . . .

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RE: More Racist Slurs Exposed - 7/4/2014 4:57:59 AM

Marc2b

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"Hell, the Onondagas, Oneidas and Mohawks I know call themselves by their personal names, like Joe, Vicky, Tom, Beth . . . "

Well . . . yeah.