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SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/7/2014 7:27:39 PM   
MrRodgers


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I agree with Prof. Stone, the Edward H. Levi Distinguished Service Professor of Law. Mr. Stone received his J.D. from the University of Chicago. There is a deep polarization between right and left.

No that long of a read and exactly on point. The right wants to see the wealthy and the corporations enjoy more political power and the poor continually disenfranchised enough, not to do...anything about it.

This is what the Roberts court has done: [Their] judge’s holding in a case is an ad hoc response to a unique state of facts, rationalized, after the event, with a dissimulation more or less conscious, and fitted willy-nilly into the Procrustean bed of approved doctrine. The motivations of the judicial response are buried, obscure, unconscious and even to the judge...unknowable.”

On Stone's 20 biggest cases since 2000 Here

“First, the justices are much more polarized along ideological lines in the most important constitutional cases,” Stone wrote. “Second, the justices appear to vote in a much more result-oriented manner in the most important constitutional cases.”

To test these two theses, Stone examined the underlying rationale of the decisions in terms of judicial activism – overturning precedent or ruling congressional actions unconstitutional (commonly associated with liberalism) and judicial restraint (commonly associated with conservatism)

According to Stone, liberal legal thinkers grant “a great deal of deference to the elected branches of government – except when such deference would effectively abdicate the responsibility the Framers had imposed upon the judiciary to serve as an essential check against the inherent dangers of democratic majoritarianism.”

Circumstances justifying liberal judicial activism, Stone wrote, occur “when the governing majority systematically disregarded the interests of a historically underrepresented group, such as blacks, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, religious dissenters, and persons accused of crime, and when there was a risk that a governing majority was using its authority to stifle its critics, entrench the political status quo, and/or perpetuate its own political power.”

“Thus, in my view, the approach reflected in the voting patterns of Justices Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan in these twenty cases seems well grounded” and is consistent with “their distinctive understanding of the special responsibility of courts in our constitutional system.”


Here's my point, I agree and signals the activism of the right since 2000.

Stone found no such consistency in votes of the five most conservative justices in the 20 major cases. The pattern of their decisions cannot, he argued, be explained by either of the two major intellectual themes of conservative legal thinking, judicial restraint and originalism.

In his study, Stone concluded that in these cases, the votes of members of the court’s right flank were “determined first-and-foremost by their own personal policy preferences.” The court’s conservatives “no doubt believe that they decide each case as it comes to them, like umpires calling balls and strikes. But given the strikingly ideological pattern of their votes in these cases, and the absence of any plausible theory to explain them, this is simply not credible.”

The legal debate is just one part of the political struggle between left and right. The intensity and irreconcilability of the legal conflict reflects the widening gulf separating the two coalitions. This is a dispute that can only be resolved at the ballot box, which explains why conservative justices have focused so intently on protecting the political power of the rich in campaign finance cases and restricting the political leverage of the poor and minorities in voting rights cases.
Here

I am a conservative and this is a large reason why am independent and I hate the right wing, mostly republicans politicians of today.


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 5/7/2014 7:30:59 PM >
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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 7:04:26 AM   
Phydeaux


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Er, no offense.
But I've never seen you make a single post where I've heard you elucidate a conservative point of view Mr. Rodgers. Or at least I don't recall one.

A study of *20* supreme court votes takes about an hour to conduct. So this is hardly real news. Rather its a puff piece pushed by a liberal agenda. But more than that, the characterization of the court as seeking to enfranchise the rich at the expense of the poor is a pretty good indicator that the remainder of the "study" can safely be ignored.

Suppose you had an aberrent court, that established all kinds of untenable ridiculous precedents. Such as restricting campaign contriubtions in the name of promoting free speech.
Overturning those poor precedents is not activism. And I object to that kind of characterization.

Conservative dogma is adherence to the constitution. It allows less wiggle room (deference) to other bodies of government than liberal dogma. And it does not shy from overturning previous (bad) precedent. Dred Scott was bad case law. Would you really have us maintain slavery just so stare decis can be preserved?

Conservatives first broached the idea of liberal activism - which means that from a conservatives point of view the supreme court made rulings that are not supported by the enumerated powers of the constitution.
Liberals are trying to co-op the term by suggesting that turning over precedent is activism.

Silly.

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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 7:30:48 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:


Conservative dogma is adherence to the constitution.


This is the most exemplar bit of dogshit ever birthed on the internet. 'Conservatives' pretty much don't know a fucking thing about the constitution.

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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 7:32:16 AM   
DomKen


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Over turning precedent is activism. What the fuck else could it possibly be.

Precedent allows the courts to function. They give stability to the judicial system. They are the very basis of the common law system. If the courts do not uphold precedent then no ruling is respected or final and everything must be decided by SCOTUS which is absurd.

The activist 5 judges, the so called conservatives, on the Court are doing possibly fatal damage to our Constitutional system by making decisions based on political expediency rather than precedent and the law.

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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 7:42:55 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:


Conservative dogma is adherence to the constitution.


This is the most exemplar bit of dogshit ever birthed on the internet. 'Conservatives' pretty much don't know a fucking thing about the constitution.

And all the more since Reagan spit on it.

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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 7:52:01 AM   
mnottertail


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I know you are not as vulgar as I am but I would replace spit with shit there, more accurate.


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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 8:08:29 AM   
joether


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Many of the recent court decisions have all been heavily conservative. That the 'conservative' members have no problem with TORTURE? Or with holding people indefinitely and without charges brought up? That those accused of wrong doing are never given a lawyer? That the 2nd amendment's 'current' definition is: The Right to Bear Arms, Shall not be Infringed (anyone that knows that amendment, knows what wrong). That anonymous agents can now give an unlimited amount of money to organizations that by their nature are shadowy to influence election results. Or that corporations are US Citizens too! They have no problem with DOMA either!

And that's just the tip of the iceberg....

I would say the manner they are ruling on in these cases is akin to a Conservative Nanny State. For any of the history buffs in here, that there have been many examples in US History of Conservative Nanny States; but not one example of the 'evil' and 'oppressive', Liberal Nanny State. In each instance of that Conservative Nanny State, the average citizen loses out on every front including their dignity! That is the irony here, that most on this forum and at large in the USA, can rattle of what the 'Liberal Nanny State' might look like in America; but can not do the same for the 'Conservative Nanny State'. When one philosophy controls how laws are made and decided; concepts like 'democray', 'the republic', 'freedom', and even 'liberty' cease. Conservative politics is one in which holding thoughts different from 'the state' is a crime and obedience to said ruling individuals is absolute. That the rich are given one set of laws and the rest of us are given another. That some rich kid gets a slap on the wrists for killing a pile of people, but a poor kid gets life in prison without the chance of parole.

The founding fathers warned against tyrannical goverments taking over. Yet, conservatives are to blind to see what their actions and inactions are bringing to this nation. That the path to Hell is laid in golden promises of a better tomorrow. Conservative politicians right now offer not one decent plan on any of a number of issues Americans face. Instead, they hope to keep the public's attention on politically motivated 'courts' like Benghazi and the IRS. Just like when the domestic side of America was going to shit under former President G. W. Bush; they tried to keep America's attention focused entirely on Iraq. We paid a very heavy penalty once, why do we fall for it a second time?

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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 9:00:08 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Over turning precedent is activism. What the fuck else could it possibly be.

Precedent allows the courts to function. They give stability to the judicial system. They are the very basis of the common law system. If the courts do not uphold precedent then no ruling is respected or final and everything must be decided by SCOTUS which is absurd.

The activist 5 judges, the so called conservatives, on the Court are doing possibly fatal damage to our Constitutional system by making decisions based on political expediency rather than precedent and the law.



So you're arguing that Dred Scott was a good precedent and shouldn't be overturned.

The Supremes overturn precedent all the time.

As for ... what is activism.

Activism deciding cases based on things not contained in the original document.

It is activist when you find that the commerce clause intended to regulate trade between states, is used to justify someone NOT purchasing healthinsurance being subject to a tax.

It is activist when you find that the right to an abortion is framed as an extrapolation of a right to privacy, which in itself is an extrapolation.

Fundamentally, liberals could not get a right to an abortion bill passed through the congress after several years of trying. So rather than pass an amendment (the approved way to extend the constitution), liberals used judicial activism to invent that right whole cloth.

It is activism when the federal government offers any opinion on marriage, in which the constitution is silent. Something which should be the province of the states.

Since the courts are the final place where your rights (and your fate) are decided - I prefer a court that has very little leeway - that follows the laws that everyone have agreed upon as passed through congress and implemented by the president and the executive branch. Courts that invent shit out of thin air will also be free to abridge your rights (patriot act) as they see fit.

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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 9:20:12 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Over turning precedent is activism. What the fuck else could it possibly be.

Precedent allows the courts to function. They give stability to the judicial system. They are the very basis of the common law system. If the courts do not uphold precedent then no ruling is respected or final and everything must be decided by SCOTUS which is absurd.

The activist 5 judges, the so called conservatives, on the Court are doing possibly fatal damage to our Constitutional system by making decisions based on political expediency rather than precedent and the law.



So you're arguing that Dred Scott was a good precedent and shouldn't be overturned.

Dred Scott was overturned because the 14th had been passed. Maybe that fact should sink in. Precedent had nothing to do with it.

quote:

The Supremes overturn precedent all the time.
no they don't. They do it so rarely that it makes big news.

quote:

As for ... what is activism.

Activism deciding cases based on things not contained in the original document.

It is activist when you find that the commerce clause intended to regulate trade between states, is used to justify someone NOT purchasing healthinsurance being subject to a tax.

That follows 2 centuries of precedent. Not ruling that way would have been activist.

quote:

It is activist when you find that the right to an abortion is framed as an extrapolation of a right to privacy, which in itself is an extrapolation.
Wrong again. The right to privacy is fundamental to the Bill of Rights. You could almost describe most of the Bill of Rights as saying, the government shall stay out of people's personal affairs. The Court simply interpreted that intent for the modern world which is clearly what the Founders intended.

quote:

It is activism when the federal government offers any opinion on marriage, in which the constitution is silent. Something which should be the province of the states.
The federal government does get to define how states recognize the marriages of other states and ultimately it is a 14th amendment issue since marriage involves so many legal rights.

quote:

Since the courts are the final place where your rights (and your fate) are decided - I prefer a court that has very little leeway - that follows the laws that everyone have agreed upon as passed through congress and implemented by the president and the executive branch. Courts that invent shit out of thin air will also be free to abridge your rights (patriot act) as they see fit.

Courts with little leeway are not courts at all. A judge has to exercise judgment, that is the whole point. The system has to be constrained by precedent but still be able to adapt to changing circumstances and changing mores.

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RE: SCOTUS not conservative but activist - 5/8/2014 11:40:00 AM   
MrRodgers


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Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Over turning precedent is activism. What the fuck else could it possibly be.

Precedent allows the courts to function. They give stability to the judicial system. They are the very basis of the common law system. If the courts do not uphold precedent then no ruling is respected or final and everything must be decided by SCOTUS which is absurd.

The activist 5 judges, the so called conservatives, on the Court are doing possibly fatal damage to our Constitutional system by making decisions based on political expediency rather than precedent and the law.



So you're arguing that Dred Scott was a good precedent and shouldn't be overturned.

The Supremes overturn precedent all the time.

As for ... what is activism.

Activism deciding cases based on things not contained in the original document.

It is activist when you find that the commerce clause intended to regulate trade between states, is used to justify someone NOT purchasing healthinsurance being subject to a tax.

It is activist when you find that the right to an abortion is framed as an extrapolation of a right to privacy, which in itself is an extrapolation.

Fundamentally, liberals could not get a right to an abortion bill passed through the congress after several years of trying. So rather than pass an amendment (the approved way to extend the constitution), liberals used judicial activism to invent that right whole cloth.

It is activism when the federal government offers any opinion on marriage, in which the constitution is silent. Something which should be the province of the states.

Since the courts are the final place where your rights (and your fate) are decided - I prefer a court that has very little leeway - that follows the laws that everyone have agreed upon as passed through congress and implemented by the president and the executive branch. Courts that invent shit out of thin air will also be free to abridge your rights (patriot act) as they see fit.

Dred Scott was never overturned and may never have been...it required a constitutional amend. of all things. Imagine a country that declared that ALL men are created equal...except blacks who were actually codified as 3/5 of a person...in the hallowed constitution.

'Citizens' was not even on point as have several of those 20 rulings and...that's activist. The word corporation doesn't appear in the constitution and exists only in abstract...on paper.

Thus to rule 5-4 that the corporation is a person and thus deserving of free speech rights turning its paper into speech is a much bigger stretch than for the court ruling 7-2...stating that for a woman to seek an abortion is a matter of privacy in or of [her] person.

The commerce clause has been used almost exclusively by big business to constitutionally rationalize such things as anti-trust exemptions and outlandish mergers far reducing competition and has been long since reduced to a vehicle for business legislation.

For anyone to have a problem with the court to calling the ACA a tax is only so much semantic legerdemain as medicare and soc. sec. are called premiums or contributions and are in fact...a tax. In fact the income 'tax' is also called a contribution.

The most telling defect of the right on the court is that for most of those 20 big rulings, they can't even explain themselves...those rulings have a constitutional basis that is...unknown.





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