Fracking is perfectly safe.... (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/29/2014 3:55:38 PM)

Fracking is safe, at least according to Marita Noon and Department of Energy.

So earthquake swarms in areas that normally do not have earthquakes and facking is being done is purely coincidental?

Polluted ground water in areas where fracking is being used is also coincidental?

And ignitable well water is a good thing.

Someone want to tell me the definition of safe these people are using?



Moonhead -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/29/2014 4:02:35 PM)

Mostly that the motgage on a house a safe distance away from any fracking is paid for by the proceeds.



Tkman117 -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/29/2014 4:13:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

And ignitable well water is a good thing.



All seriousness aside, it is kinda cool [:D]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBjSXWQRV8



MercTech -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/29/2014 6:04:31 PM)

Fracking is perfectly fine if the safety protocols are followed.

Now, if you hire the BP Oil engineers that said automatic shutoff valves are not needed on undersea oil wells... need I spell it out?

Fracking done improperly, is hellaciously damaging.

Now, to be a federal inspector for many of the oversight agencies; you must have a baccalaureate degree. I remember challenging on federal oversight inspector that was farting out his mouth with "What degree, exactly does your GS-6 ass have?".... grudgingly he admitted to "French Literature". Need a job with your fresh liberal arts degree; become a federal inspector in a highly technical field.

Yep, I'm snarking on the one out of five federal inspectors that really tried to bollix up dangerous evolutions with total clueless idiocy. Most of them are doing their best to make sure things are done safely with political pressure to do stupid with alacrity.



BamaD -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/29/2014 6:05:45 PM)

"And ignitable well water is a good thing. "

It can make deciding what to do with intruders easier, of course then you have to decide whether or not to
kill them first.



MercTech -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/29/2014 6:22:25 PM)

And the fracking water is supposed to be tanked up and treated then put out into sealed evaporation ponds. Gad, the methyl ethyl nasties that can be found left over in fracking tanks.

But, if it is done right, the volatiles don't get into the groundwater.

I don't know enough to make up my mind yet but I do see that there is a question as to whether banning fracking is the solution or better enforcement of doing things safely. And criminal penalties not just mediocre fines for fucking up.




BamaD -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/29/2014 6:24:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

And the fracking water is supposed to be tanked up and treated then put out into sealed evaporation ponds. Gad, the methyl ethyl nasties that can be found left over in fracking tanks.

But, if it is done right, the volatiles don't get into the groundwater.

I don't know enough to make up my mind yet but I do see that there is a question as to whether banning fracking is the solution or better enforcement of doing things safely. And criminal penalties not just mediocre fines for fucking up.



Oh great you want a serious discussion.



MercTech -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/29/2014 8:26:24 PM)

I'm always sirius if not alpha centauri.. Some say I have an astronomical sense of humor.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 6:38:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
And ignitable well water is a good thing.

All seriousness aside, it is kinda cool [:D]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBjSXWQRV8


Ooooh, fire play!! lol



Moonhead -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 11:34:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
But, if it is done right, the volatiles don't get into the groundwater.

Are there any cases of it ever being done right, then?
The crap getting into the groundwater seems to be usual in fracking. That's a big part of why there's been such a fuss about it of late, isn't it?



MercTech -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 12:31:21 PM)

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2012/01/25/guest-post-water-contamination-fracking-is-not-the-problem/

Well drilling is very regulated and not just fracking wells. Improperly done or wells left just abandoned can cause massive ground water contamination.

I still think the conclusion that fracking causes the problem is premature. I also think that fucked up well drilling screwing people over and who didn't provide oversight of safe practices is a huge issue.

Fracking technology has created a boom in well drilling that hasn't been seen since the 1930s and the birth of the oil economy. More wells going down and more fuckups in well development causing groundwater contamination.

My opinion is based on experience with dropping monitoring wells to check for groundwater contamination and decommissioning of wells to prevent groundwater contamination. Peripheral to my job I've had to learn a lot of the specs for doing drilling correctly and the consequences of fucking it up. I won't bore you with details but I do know if you cut certain corners you can contaminate perch water and the deep aquifer and it won't be noticed for at least months as contaminants slowly percolate through.

Some states I've worked in require a third party verification of proper drilling and well development. That means that a safety and compliance person that does not work for the well drilling company has to sign off on all the critical steps. That seems to help and leaves the too few government inspectors to keep looking at the big picture than hurriedly vetting individual operations.

The actual specs and oversight will be on the state level in a state EPA or Department of Environmental Quality for the location the well will be sunk. If on federal lands, it will be controlled by the federal EPA.

What I've seen on federal lands (most of my personal experience with wells); the EPA inspector picks the third party verification company from a list they have qualified as competent or puts the verification out to bid by qualified companies and the state sends an inspector to review the paperwork and make sure state requirements are met by the work plan.

If you hit google you can get a look at the Federal EPA specs for well drilling and in most states find the regional specs.

Popular Mechanics had a good overview of the subject. Admittedly it is pro fracking but has some good overview of what is actually done.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/coal-oil-gas/top-10-myths-about-natural-gas-drilling-6386593#slide-1



Hillwilliam -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 12:57:06 PM)

ty for the info Merc



Phydeaux -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 4:58:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I'm always sirius if not alpha centauri.. Some say I have an astronomical sense of humor.




Which is only eclipsed by your common sense and pragmatism.

Which do you suppose puts more tons of pollutants into the environment... fracking or car manufacturing.

Since its car manufacturing by a factor of 10 - wouldn't you think the logical position would be to shut down car mfg first?



DomKen -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 5:13:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2012/01/25/guest-post-water-contamination-fracking-is-not-the-problem/

Well drilling is very regulated and not just fracking wells. Improperly done or wells left just abandoned can cause massive ground water contamination.

I still think the conclusion that fracking causes the problem is premature. I also think that fucked up well drilling screwing people over and who didn't provide oversight of safe practices is a huge issue.

Fracking technology has created a boom in well drilling that hasn't been seen since the 1930s and the birth of the oil economy. More wells going down and more fuckups in well development causing groundwater contamination.

My opinion is based on experience with dropping monitoring wells to check for groundwater contamination and decommissioning of wells to prevent groundwater contamination. Peripheral to my job I've had to learn a lot of the specs for doing drilling correctly and the consequences of fucking it up. I won't bore you with details but I do know if you cut certain corners you can contaminate perch water and the deep aquifer and it won't be noticed for at least months as contaminants slowly percolate through.

Some states I've worked in require a third party verification of proper drilling and well development. That means that a safety and compliance person that does not work for the well drilling company has to sign off on all the critical steps. That seems to help and leaves the too few government inspectors to keep looking at the big picture than hurriedly vetting individual operations.

The actual specs and oversight will be on the state level in a state EPA or Department of Environmental Quality for the location the well will be sunk. If on federal lands, it will be controlled by the federal EPA.

What I've seen on federal lands (most of my personal experience with wells); the EPA inspector picks the third party verification company from a list they have qualified as competent or puts the verification out to bid by qualified companies and the state sends an inspector to review the paperwork and make sure state requirements are met by the work plan.

If you hit google you can get a look at the Federal EPA specs for well drilling and in most states find the regional specs.

Popular Mechanics had a good overview of the subject. Admittedly it is pro fracking but has some good overview of what is actually done.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/coal-oil-gas/top-10-myths-about-natural-gas-drilling-6386593#slide-1


I'm still troubled by water wells exploding and the fracking companies refusing to divulge exactly what the fluids they pump into the ground are.



Tkman117 -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 5:29:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I'm always sirius if not alpha centauri.. Some say I have an astronomical sense of humor.




Which is only eclipsed by your common sense and pragmatism.

Which do you suppose puts more tons of pollutants into the environment... fracking or car manufacturing.

Since its car manufacturing by a factor of 10 - wouldn't you think the logical position would be to shut down car mfg first?


Could you site that information please instead of pulling them out of your ass?



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 7:52:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Fracking is safe, at least according to Marita Noon and Department of Energy.

So earthquake swarms in areas that normally do not have earthquakes and facking is being done is purely coincidental?

Polluted ground water in areas where fracking is being used is also coincidental?

And ignitable well water is a good thing.

Someone want to tell me the definition of safe these people are using?


The ignitable water issue has been debated by some pretty solid science and has yet to be connected to fracking....the rest of it seems pretty easy to connect the dots.

Now the question is....how much do we want to pay 9 bucks for a gallon of gasoline?

That's where the debate centers....it's never been (never will be) about health or safety.



Musicmystery -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/30/2014 7:55:08 PM)

So where do you suppose ignitable water comes from? Why do you suppose it only happens where fracking has been done?



Moonhead -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/31/2014 7:38:50 AM)

Obviously it's eco freaks contaminating the ground water to make fracking look unsafe...



Phydeaux -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/31/2014 10:05:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So where do you suppose ignitable water comes from? Why do you suppose it only happens where fracking has been done?



Thats just not true.

You can find "igniteable" water in many locations in the US with no difficulty. Basically, anytime you have significant amounts of decaying vegetation in aerobic conditions, the decomposition will yield methane. Which, when run through a nozzle will be "igniteable".




Phydeaux -> RE: Fracking is perfectly safe.... (3/31/2014 10:45:35 AM)

Lets see, shall we?

16 million vehicle sales per year. Average weight 4000 lbs. 64 billion lbs. 75% of that is recylced. 16 billion lbs therefor to the trash heap.
Note that this excludes any manufacturing waste.

Now, in the US we have 240 million cars on the road. Averaging cars and truck MPg.. it comes out right around 20mpg. We'll ignore commercial transportation to make it more favorable to you.

Per capita thats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_of_transport

330 million people times the average of 15000 miles per year divided by 20 mpg call it 250 billion gallons of gasoline.
The EPA has ruled that CO2 is a pollutant of course.. so one gallon of gasoline. call it 6lbs per gallon (we'll round down) 1.6 trillion pounds of waste.
Ignoring replaceables like tires, oil, windshield wipers.


On to fracking.
Lets presume that each well uses 1,000,000 gallons of water. Thats on the high side. Lets assume no recycling occurs although the industry average is 20%.
Each well injects .5% in fracking chemicals, or 5,0000 gallons of fracking chemicals. Methanol is the most common fracking fluid, and its density is about that of water, so we will round it to 7.5 lbs / gal. Call it 40,000 lbs.

There are at last count roughly 35000 wells. So call it 1.5 billion lbs of polutants per year.


Or less than 10% of just the dumped weight of automobiles, per year. And .1% of the aggregate total.

So I repeat. If you really want to go after pollution - why don't you go after automobiles?



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