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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:35:23 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

This thread has forced me to turn my thinking around and apply it to a gay doctor or druggist or florist denying service to a member of the Westboro Baptist Church dead or alive. It is also wrong and I cannot have it both ways.


We don't always agree, I know, but I always admire your honesty and sincere willingness to look at things from new angles. Bravo!


Ditto to the both of you.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:35:48 AM   
Whippedboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

By the way, my post above was supposed to be in sarcasm font. I keep looking for it, but.... well, the WWW is a vast place. Must be around here someplace.

When Phelps and crew were protesting the March on Washington by yelling at the parade, I started the chant "Hate is Sin." One of the proudest moments in my life was hearing it continue as we marchers moved down Pennsylvania Ave. People picked it up as they passed Phelps and it was (I can only presume) continuously chanted, covering their meager attempts at what? intimidation.

They announced that they were going to protest at the funeral, in a nearby town, of a 19 year old who
was killed in Iraq. The Sheriff informed them that they had every legal right to do so but he didn't have
the manpower to protect them. They called off the protest.


If they had been protesting at my family members funeral NO town would have had enough manpower to protect them.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:41:11 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whippedboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

By the way, my post above was supposed to be in sarcasm font. I keep looking for it, but.... well, the WWW is a vast place. Must be around here someplace.

When Phelps and crew were protesting the March on Washington by yelling at the parade, I started the chant "Hate is Sin." One of the proudest moments in my life was hearing it continue as we marchers moved down Pennsylvania Ave. People picked it up as they passed Phelps and it was (I can only presume) continuously chanted, covering their meager attempts at what? intimidation.

They announced that they were going to protest at the funeral, in a nearby town, of a 19 year old who
was killed in Iraq. The Sheriff informed them that they had every legal right to do so but he didn't have
the manpower to protect them. They called off the protest.


If they had been protesting at my family members funeral NO town would have had enough manpower to protect them.

Yes the sheriff said he wouldn't put his men in harms way to protect them.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/25/2014 10:43:10 AM >

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:41:49 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Sexual orientation and religion are BOTH protected classes under the Civil Rights Act. The gay florist would be acting illegally imo, denying service for Fred's religious activities and his religious funeral.


There are legalities and then there are realities. The reality is that one chooses their religion, one does not choose their sexual orientation.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:43:23 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

It would be true in a different country with defamation criminal laws, in the usa they are equivalent.


There are legalities and then there are realities. The reality is that one chooses their religion, one does not choose their sexual orientation.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:47:04 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

In another thread on this issue I proposed a hypothetical situation where a gay man traveling through rural Missouri were to become severely ill or in need of a prescription drug such as insulin. In his being denied service by a straight doctor or druggist because of religious principals his life was put at risk. This could apply to food or a mechanic or lodging any other service. It is a slippery slope denying service in a public venue and I am against that.

This thread has forced me to turn my thinking around and apply it to a gay doctor or druggist or florist denying service to a member of the Westboro Baptist Church dead or alive. It is also wrong and I cannot have it both ways.


In the case of a pharmacists or doctors refusing service, physical harm or even death may result. In the case of a florist, there is no risk of harm in denial of service. Besides, there are millions of homosexuals but there was only one Fred Phelps and since the fucker is dead it is a moot question anyway.


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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 11:24:42 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The reality is that one chooses their religion

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. My childhood Catholicism, formally shed two decades ago, still lingers in my DNA and probably always will.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 11:38:56 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. My childhood Catholicism, formally shed two decades ago, still lingers in my DNA and probably always will.


There is no Catholic gene, nor a Muslim gene, nor a Buddhist gene, etc.

Yes, children get often get indoctrinated by their parents into a particular religion but the application of common sense, honesty and some courage is all one needs to to overcome that.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 11:40:03 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I have to say, I don't see the things phelps preached to be "religious" activities. Having said that, the content of what's said at the funeral might also not qualify in my book.

I've always said that any group that preaches actual hate (KKK, Nazis, WBC) can't possibly try to call themselves a "religion" (And I'm a pretty tolerant guy of religions).

ETA: Screen Captures RULE!






quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

You're engaging in the same false equivalency that the OP is. Refusing to serve someone because of their involuntary inclusion of a group (in this case, homosexuals) because of an immutable trait (homosexuality) is bigotry. Refusing to serve someone because of their voluntary inclusion in a group (in this case, homophobes) for a choice (homophobia) is not.



Sexual orientation and religion are BOTH protected classes under the Civil Rights Act. The gay florist would be acting illegally imo, denying service for Fred's religious activities and his religious funeral.



< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/25/2014 11:43:08 AM >

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 11:41:58 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whippedboy

Also, a funeral is a choice. :)




And a wedding isn't?

Let's face it, if ya'll can face yourselves. Forcing a Christian who believes gay marriage is wrong to provide business services to a gay wedding is exactly the same as forcing a gay florist who thinks Phelps was a miserable shit to provide services related to his funeral.




No, it's not.

One is refusing to serve a person because of their sexuality, the other is refusing to serve someone because they're an asshole.

Very different.


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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 11:48:04 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. My childhood Catholicism, formally shed two decades ago, still lingers in my DNA and probably always will.


There is no Catholic gene, nor a Muslim gene, nor a Buddhist gene, etc.

Yes, children get often get indoctrinated by their parents into a particular religion but the application of common sense, honesty and some courage is all one needs to to overcome that.

I shared my experience/perspective. Ymmv, I realize.

Given the topic, it's more than a little amusing that your words were far more dogmatic than mine.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 11:52:45 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

It would be true in a different country with defamation criminal laws, in the usa they are equivalent.


There are legalities and then there are realities. The reality is that one chooses their religion, one does not choose their sexual orientation.


I don't agree with the us law on defamation, and I think he should have served some convictions, but your supreme court said he's not doing anything that's wrong in the usa, then he can't be discriminated in your country.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 12:10:22 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I shared my experience/perspective. Ymmv, I realize.

Given the topic, it's more than a little amusing that your words were far more dogmatic than mine.


There is nothing dogmatic about what I wrote. Religion is false. That is not dogmatic, that is simply the reality.


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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 12:17:59 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I don't agree with the us law on defamation, and I think he should have served some convictions, but your supreme court said he's not doing anything that's wrong in the usa, then he can't be discriminated in your country.


Of course he can't be discriminated against. He's dead.

Look, normally I would agree. I despise bullies and bigots and any kind of unwarranted discrimination but this is Fred Phelps we are talking about. FRED SHIT STAINED SOUL FUCKING PHELPS! Why do people have such a hard time understanding that?

Personally, I would take his money and then inform him that I would donate it to the GLAAD in his name.


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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 12:32:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

There is nothing dogmatic about what I wrote. Religion is false. That is not dogmatic

Sure, sure, shoot yourself in the foot and spoil everybody's fun.

K.


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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 12:48:31 PM   
cloudboy


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Your response showed there is an actual difference.

The whole question here is a kind of mirror to "white discrimination." People in the majority don't want to experience any kind of discrimination, but hate/admitting (and often deny) that minorities face it.

There's a "war against Christmas" but we can't have a mosque built near ground zero.

Etc.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 1:31:14 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whippedboy

Also, a funeral is a choice. :)




And a wedding isn't?

Let's face it, if ya'll can face yourselves. Forcing a Christian who believes gay marriage is wrong to provide business services to a gay wedding is exactly the same as forcing a gay florist who thinks Phelps was a miserable shit to provide services related to his funeral.




No, it's not.

One is refusing to serve a person because of their sexuality, the other is refusing to serve someone because they're an asshole.

Very different.




Yup......if someone comes in to a store and tells the clerk to suck his dick.......the clerk can refuse service to said ass-hole....


And not because the ass-hole is gay or straight or Hindu or Christian......as the OP blathers.....

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 1:51:50 PM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I don't agree with the us law on defamation, and I think he should have served some convictions, but your supreme court said he's not doing anything that's wrong in the usa, then he can't be discriminated in your country.


Of course he can't be discriminated against. He's dead.

Look, normally I would agree. I despise bullies and bigots and any kind of unwarranted discrimination but this is Fred Phelps we are talking about. FRED SHIT STAINED SOUL FUCKING PHELPS! Why do people have such a hard time understanding that?

Personally, I would take his money and then inform him that I would donate it to the GLAAD in his name.



Well you can take actions also on dead people, priebke had been dumped in a nameless hole and no-one knows where. As I said it's unfair he never was sentenced to jail.

edit: to the OP, if a baker doesn't want to work for a gay marriage he can always came up with "I'm really busy" and no one can force him to bake that cake, what you can force the baker is to be polite and not disrespectfull to the customer. The real problem is when a state pass an uncostitutional and discriminatory law that ends up with people putting up signs with "no dogs and no gays allowed" written on it on the shops doors.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 3/25/2014 2:04:18 PM >

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 2:43:30 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
In light of recent events in Arizona, I'm curious to see how those who support making a Christian owned bakery do a cake for a gay wedding (for example) would feel about requiring a gay florist (for example) provide their services to a Phelps funeral?

I'm not sure what the current law reads so I don't know. If I was emperor, "yes they should". If you can't discriminate on the basis of <x> then you just can't do it no matter how much I may sympathize with your cause.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 2:52:01 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		That`s not enough for the typical christo-fascist angry pants type.......


They have to have their PR stunt, publicly/politically refusing service and be as big an ass as possible......like phelps.


Most folks are not sociopaths nor hateful nor seeking to harm people or purposely hurt feelings.....


Extreme examples of cruelty and hate are just not the norm and it`s insulting for normal people to compared to phelps.


Just because one might want to piss on phelp`s grave or kill hitler if they could.......doesn`t mean that same person would normally desecrate a grave or kill someone.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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