Politics of Infrastructure (Full Version)

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joether -> Politics of Infrastructure (3/14/2014 2:07:26 AM)

I've had in the past argued that this nation should improve its energy/telecomm infrastructure. As much of it is still using technology as old as 1950 in most places. During each of the summer in the last decade, we have observed very high temperature summers. These summers have always placed a considerable strain on a system that meets or exceeds its capacity. There have been previous reports of localized outages in places that were stifling hot and humid.

The counter arguments have been pretty petty given the subject nature. Yet enough for Congress to take no useful steps in updating the nation's infrastructure. The document below I think will shed some new light on this problem. I do not think its something that we should ignore.

Report: U.S. Could Be Plunged Into Blackout By Minimal Attacks




Zonie63 -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/14/2014 6:52:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I've had in the past argued that this nation should improve its energy/telecomm infrastructure. As much of it is still using technology as old as 1950 in most places. During each of the summer in the last decade, we have observed very high temperature summers. These summers have always placed a considerable strain on a system that meets or exceeds its capacity. There have been previous reports of localized outages in places that were stifling hot and humid.

The counter arguments have been pretty petty given the subject nature. Yet enough for Congress to take no useful steps in updating the nation's infrastructure. The document below I think will shed some new light on this problem. I do not think its something that we should ignore.

Report: U.S. Could Be Plunged Into Blackout By Minimal Attacks



I agree. The neglect of our infrastructure (not just energy or telecommunications, but also pipelines, bridges, tunnels, etc.) is an indication of the kind of myopia which pervades our political culture. The politicians will only do the bare minimum, short-run solutions to whatever problems we have, while leaving any long-term considerations aside, since it's not something they'll have to deal with directly.

In all candor, those of us who are alive today really should hang our heads in shame at the kind of country we're leaving to posterity. A rotting infrastructure, depleted resources, a diminished manufacturing base, insurmountable debts, a corrupted political system, and a polluted, dying planet. What the hell have we done to ourselves?

The world is also far more unstable. The article you linked points up the electrical grid's vulnerability to attack, but there's also the matter of possible motives for such an attack. This would indicate further myopia on the part of our national leaders, since they embarked on a foreign policy which would provoke other nations/factions to attack us, without first adequately preparing for the eventuality of such an attack.

I expect it will be a hot summer around here. Unlike the unusually cold, harsh winter they've been having back east, our winter here in AZ was unusually hot and dry, which means a greater likelihood of forest and brush fires. Not sure what they're predicting for the east as far as what kind of summer it will be. But if it's hot and humid like previous summers, then all those air conditioners will definitely put quite a load on the power grid. One thing I notice about cities back east is that a lot of the buildings are older and use box A/C units for individual rooms rather than having a centralized A/C compressor for the whole building.






MercTech -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/14/2014 9:34:57 AM)

Lack of maintenance of the infrastructure is endemic and a lot of it deals with the fact that maintenance is not a high profile item and easily cut from a budget and ignored until something breaks.

While the government provides regulatory oversight; the infrastructure belongs to private companies. And the corporate accountant view of "maintenance" is that it can be put off until something breaks. When this is applied to things like power lines, rail lines, and power plants; the results can be very nasty.

The attitude isn't restricted to corporations but to governments too.

So many of our highway bridges were built in the 1930s by the WPA. In many areas the inspections and upkeep have been neglected to the point of failure. Inspectors were told to change conclusions of inspections so bridges could be kept open.

After several regional phone companies merged to form Verizon; one of the first things done was to lay off the line maintenance crews in favor of outsourcing line maintenance on a "as needed" basis. This resulted in lines being overgrown by tree limbs and a quarter million people being without phone service for weeks after Hurricane Fran.

The problem is similar with electrical power. After mergers of regional power companies into huge conglomerates; the maintenance of domestic distribution received a low priority and the work was outsourced.

Maintenance on power plant systems is often deferred until something breaks causing an unplanned outage (some industries, like power generation, use the term "outage" for a period of complete shut down for maintenance and repair). I've always considered it and encouraging factor for delaying maintenance the fact that a planned outrage is considered CODB (cost of doing business) whereas an outage is an "unplanned expense" and may have the cost passed on to ratepayers (depends on area).

At the beginning of this century, what caused most of the oil refineries on the west coast to be shut down at the same time and give us skyrocketing fuel prices that crippled our economy? Was it manipulation by Enron or the simple fact that Enron encouraged delaying maintenance until it all broke at once?

How do we get away from the mentality that wants big new projects but fails to account for maintaining the systems already in place?




Zonie63 -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/14/2014 10:39:57 AM)

It never ceases to amaze me just how fragile it all is and how many parts go in to making up the whole system and infrastructure. I remember several years ago when a burst pipeline in Arizona temporarily cut gasoline supplies to the Phoenix area. That wasn't their entire source of gasoline, but it represented the lion's share. So, in the weeks it took to repair, there was a fair bit of chaos in the area, with price-gouging, gas lines, and people getting into fights in the gas lines. Eventually it got fixed and things returned to normal, but it's incredible that just one thing fell out of place and caused such a ripple effect.

A power outage in a major city can lead to utter bedlam in a very short time. I can only imagine what would happen if people were without gasoline or electricity for any length of time.





mnottertail -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/14/2014 10:42:42 AM)

Infrastructure is the number one priority of government.  It is distessing that it is lost on so many.




Musicmystery -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/14/2014 12:46:41 PM)

Congress fiddled while Rome burned.

~ Nero




Phydeaux -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/14/2014 3:11:21 PM)

Why would we I care if Rome burned? And I'm perfectly happy with Congress fiddling instead of passing more crap like Obamacare.

Get rid of Davis Beacon (ie, welfare for unions) and I completely support the need to fix bridges, roads, ports etc. Of course, much of the infrastructure was built under the terms the feds built it and it was the states responsibility to maintain it....




Musicmystery -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/14/2014 9:32:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Why would we I care if Rome burned? And I'm perfectly happy with Congress fiddling instead of passing more crap like Obamacare.

I see you don't know what infrastructure means. Perhaps take a moment and look it up.

quote:


I completely support the need to fix bridges, roads, ports etc.

...in which case you are agreeing with me. And that's why "we I" care if Rome burns.




FellowSlave -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/15/2014 12:33:25 AM)

Why are they playing with terrorism nonsense again? A strong, directed solar flare is the real problem. It can bring down the grid. It is estimated spending about 5billion would secure the electrical grid against EMP.




VideoAdminChi -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/15/2014 10:22:30 AM)

FR,

A number of posts have been removed. Please return to the topic and do not make personal attacks against other posters.




VideoAdminChi -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/15/2014 10:27:04 AM)

The topic of this thread is energy/telecomm infrastructure. If any of you would like your healthcare posts back to post on an actual healthcare thread, you may CMail me, but do not respond on this thread.




TheHeretic -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/15/2014 10:52:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I've had in the past argued that this nation should improve its energy/telecomm infrastructure. As much of it is still using technology as old as 1950 in most places. During each of the summer in the last decade, we have observed very high temperature summers. These summers have always placed a considerable strain on a system that meets or exceeds its capacity. There have been previous reports of localized outages in places that were stifling hot and humid.

The counter arguments have been pretty petty given the subject nature. Yet enough for Congress to take no useful steps in updating the nation's infrastructure. The document below I think will shed some new light on this problem. I do not think its something that we should ignore.

Report: U.S. Could Be Plunged Into Blackout By Minimal Attacks




There was a particular news story that prompted the story in the OP's link.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-grid-attack-20140211,0,3330830,full.story#axzz2w3OMLD3W

For those who won't risk the LA Times link (there have been issues there), the report is of a very well-planned attack on a substation in California that took place on April 16, 2013. They knew exactly where to find the specific communication lines to cut, exactly how to bypass the security systems, and left the investigators without any clues.

There are some conversations I'll have with friends while surrounded by empty bottles, but never on the internet. Even the attack described in the article was far more complicated than it ever needed to be.




dcnovice -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/15/2014 11:50:35 AM)

FR

Every decade or so, a friend and I like to canoe on the Potomac. Seeing the undersides of bridges is always a bit scary.




DomKen -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/15/2014 11:55:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I've had in the past argued that this nation should improve its energy/telecomm infrastructure. As much of it is still using technology as old as 1950 in most places. During each of the summer in the last decade, we have observed very high temperature summers. These summers have always placed a considerable strain on a system that meets or exceeds its capacity. There have been previous reports of localized outages in places that were stifling hot and humid.

The counter arguments have been pretty petty given the subject nature. Yet enough for Congress to take no useful steps in updating the nation's infrastructure. The document below I think will shed some new light on this problem. I do not think its something that we should ignore.

Report: U.S. Could Be Plunged Into Blackout By Minimal Attacks




There was a particular news story that prompted the story in the OP's link.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-grid-attack-20140211,0,3330830,full.story#axzz2w3OMLD3W

For those who won't risk the LA Times link (there have been issues there), the report is of a very well-planned attack on a substation in California that took place on April 16, 2013. They knew exactly where to find the specific communication lines to cut, exactly how to bypass the security systems, and left the investigators without any clues.

There are some conversations I'll have with friends while surrounded by empty bottles, but never on the internet. Even the attack described in the article was far more complicated than it ever needed to be.

That one attack was thankfully on a minor substation with easily replaced transformers.

The transformers that step down voltage for long rang transmission are not so easily replaced. The only manufacturer is in Korea and the really big ones can take a year to deliver. While each substation obviously has some redundancy there are not lots of these large format transformers in storage anywhere in the US. It would not take a large group much research or much effort to find where to strike to cripple one or more of the US power grids for quite a while in roughly the same manner.

This is why we need to modernize the US power distribution network.




TheHeretic -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/15/2014 12:24:32 PM)

The station was down for a month, and if it was in fact a dry run for much wider and more coodinated attacks, dishing out the big money contracts to create an even more complicated and integrated system isn't going to help. No giant system is going to be impossible to deliberately compromise.

A good back-up system, able to draw on and utilize locally produced power might be a better option. Of course, the vast tracts of land required for solar and wind plants aren't going to fit that concept very well for city folk.

The solar panels will be going up on my house relatively soon (the permit process out here in the People's Republic of California is an endless bitch, and the installer can't give us any sort of good date - spring, or maybe early summer is the best guess). Once that is done, I may look into having the house wired for a secondary system that would provide us with independent power, should there be a long term interruption.




DomKen -> RE: Politics of Infrastructure (3/15/2014 1:28:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The station was down for a month, and if it was in fact a dry run for much wider and more coodinated attacks, dishing out the big money contracts to create an even more complicated and integrated system isn't going to help. No giant system is going to be impossible to deliberately compromise.

A good back-up system, able to draw on and utilize locally produced power might be a better option. Of course, the vast tracts of land required for solar and wind plants aren't going to fit that concept very well for city folk.

If most buildings with suitable roofs had solar panels and/or vertical axis wind turbines and the distribution grid was setup for such any attack on the transmission substations would be much less of a problem. We should get away from the idea that power is something produced at large installations and distributed to us. We should, as much as possible, produce the power we need locally and use power plant as little as possible.




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