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I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 2:33:13 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		I have long agreed that the Mormon church is a cult.

Now, it seems a British Court wants the church to prove its teachings.

quote:

Head of Mormon church Thomas Monson summoned by British magistrates' court over Adam and Eve teaching

Thomas S Monson, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ordered to appear before British magistrates' court amid claims that the organisation's teaching amounts to 'fraud'


A British magistrate has issued an extraordinary summons to the worldwide leader of the Mormon church alleging that its teachings about mankind amount to fraud.

Thomas S. Monson, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been ordered to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court in London next month to defend the church’s doctrines including beliefs about Adam and Eve and Native Americans.

A formal summons signed by District Judge Elizabeth Roscoe warns Mr Monson, who is recognised by Mormons as God’s prophet on Earth, that a warrant for his arrest could be issued if he fails to make the journey from Salt Lake City, Utah, for a hearing on March 14.

In one of the most unusual documents ever issued by a British court, it lists seven teachings of the church, including that Native Americans are descended from a family of ancient Israelites as possible evidence of fraud.

It also cites the belief that the Book of Mormon was translated from ancient gold plates revealed to the church’s founder Joseph Smith by angels and that Adam and Eve lived around 6,000 years ago.
Source


First, science disproved the claims about American Indians being descended from a Jewish family years ago.

The gold plates and Egyptian papyrus that were the "original" documents have not been seen since Joseph Smith.

Finally, with no genetic facts to base their claims, why hasnt someone called this into question years ago?

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 2:51:58 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Don't we have a right to worship who and what we like? If our beliefs are breaking no laws should we be ordered to appear in court to prove them in a democracy with freedom of religion?

Butch

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 3:12:29 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


Posts: 1009
Joined: 4/29/2004
Status: offline 		Seeing that the Mormons, like all Christian sects, seeks to gather state power unto itself, then yes, I'd say their doctrine definitely needs legal scrutiny.

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 3:19:03 PM   
sloguy02246


Posts: 534
Joined: 11/5/2011
Status: offline 		I wonder where the alleged "fraud" comes in?
Every religion has tenets based solely on faith which cannot be proven.

E.g., a piece of unleavened bread is actually the flesh of a human being named Jesus Christ who died 2000 years ago.
So you could make the case that Holy Communion is also a "fraud."

But fraud usually requires someone to be the perpetrator of the fraud and there must also be a victim who was diminished by the fraud.
If the congregation believes in the tenets of their faith, I don't see where the fraud is occurring.

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 3:40:18 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Don't we have a right to worship who and what we like? If our beliefs are breaking no laws should we be ordered to appear in court to prove them in a democracy with freedom of religion?

Butch


Please note, Butch, this is a British judge.

And yes the US constitution does allow for freedom of worship. However, the LDS church (mormons) have not done away with all their basic beliefs that put them at odds with the US government in the early years of the church. Church doctrine still advocates a theocratic government based in the Mormon teachings, so yeah, there are a few small, insignificant problems with church beliefs.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 3:57:27 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The UK also has a freedom of religion clause in the Human Rights Act... There may be more to the story than is in your link otherwise this would not happen.

As far as their position in America they are not sanctioning the breaking of US law...that is all that should count. You can't bitch if they are politically active as a church... If you do then you would have to condemn the Catholic and most Protestant churches as well.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 3:59:07 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Politically active, and believing in a fundamental change in the Federal Government and creating a state religion, yep I can bitch.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 4:05:36 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You will have to show me...could be but I've not heard of this. I think their basic mandate is to honor and separate church from civil government. They encourage participation in local government and advocate separation.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/10/2014 4:15:00 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You will have to show me...could be but I've not heard of this. I think their basic mandate is to honor and separate church from civil government. They encourage participation in local government and advocate separation.

Butch



My second wife tried to get me to join the church before we divorced. Attending the televised conferences, many speakers talked of the need for religious basis in laws, add to that Glen Beck has commented on the needed change in the Federal government, and he is a mormon, including a state recognized religion.

As for the basis of their beliefs, only a select few "allegedly" saw the golden tablets which were taken by an angel for safe keeping after being translating, and this is of course after Joseph Smith dug them up.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 5:23:36 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

Thomas S Monson, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ordered to appear before British magistrates' court amid claims that the organisation's teaching amounts to 'fraud'


So, do they have some kind of "church court" in the UK? I know they have a "church police," since I saw it in a Monty Python sketch.

Shouldn't they be doing this with all religions? I wonder what the Muslims would do if their leaders were called into court and told that their teachings are "fraud." That would be quite a hornet's nest, I think.




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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 6:11:44 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		I remember that you are catholic, Jeff.
Now, do you truly belief that the same accusations of fraud could not be leveled against the catholic church?
Wine to blood?
Communion wafer to flesh?
Virgin birth?

Not that I want to defend the mormon church, but other religious denominations should take a moment to think about the implications and consequences before they gloat.

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 8:46:32 AM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

it seems a British Court wants the church to prove its teachings.

As I understand the article you linked, the action argues that making false representations in order to induce people to part with their money is fraud. The reference there is to the church's practice of tithing, but precisely what the story of Adam and Eve has to with that is beyond me.

K.


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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 8:56:42 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I think "fuck all" is the correct answer to that one, K.
Of course, it's easier to start whining about religious freedoms and "they wouldn't do this to the muslims" than it is to note that the court case is about fraudulent activities, not proving Mormons don't belong to a "real" religion.

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 9:08:35 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

I remember that you are catholic, Jeff.
Now, do you truly belief that the same accusations of fraud could not be leveled against the catholic church?
Wine to blood?
Communion wafer to flesh?
Virgin birth?

Not that I want to defend the mormon church, but other religious denominations should take a moment to think about the implications and consequences before they gloat.


Every christian faith that has a communion ceremony has the wine to blood, wafer to flesh thing, as well as the virgin birth. That isnt a strictly Catholic practice.

However the other christian denominations do not make the claim nor base their religion on the fact that Native Americans are actually the descendents of a lost Jewish tribe, that their scripture is based on golden tablets that only 10 people ever saw over a hundred years ago,

Which is the items that the British Magistrate wants the LDS church to prove.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to calamitysandra)
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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 9:15:38 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Lets just cover one aspect, that Native Americans are descended from Jews.

DNA tests have not shown any Jewish genetic markers in any Native American tribe of North or South America. Native Americans are descended from the culture that came after the clovis culture died out and came to the Americas via the Barents land bridge. Not a Jewish tribe that fled Israel and sailed across the Indian and Pacific oceans to land in South America to start the Meso American cultures.

Now I would like to see someone explain how all traces of Jewish Genetic markers were erased from Native American bloodlines.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 9:41:40 AM   
Artisculation2


Posts: 47
Joined: 10/7/2013
Status: offline 		Most leading religions now accept their myths are actually beliefs and not fact. It's a sort of get out of jail free card. What I understand is that Mormans claim their beliefs are fact. A subtle difference but an important difference.

As for American Indians, there is not one source of their origin, there is something like 12 different origins. Most from the Asian landbridge which is now the Bering Straits but also polypensian, Japan and Europe.

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 6:07:53 PM   
MrRodgers


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Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Politically active, and believing in a fundamental change in the Federal Government and creating a state religion, yep I can bitch.

Many said some of the same sort of possibilities could come true if Kennedy was elected yet they too were...a bit overwrought. Now an Irishmen, that was cause for concern.

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RE: I love this, and about time. - 2/11/2014 6:16:05 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You will have to show me...could be but I've not heard of this. I think their basic mandate is to honor and separate church from civil government. They encourage participation in local government and advocate separation.

Butch


My second wife tried to get me to join the church before we divorced. Attending the televised conferences, many speakers talked of the need for religious basis in laws, add to that Glen Beck has commented on the needed change in the Federal government, and he is a mormon, including a state recognized religion.

As for the basis of their beliefs, only a select few "allegedly" saw the golden tablets which were taken by an angel for safe keeping after being translating, and this is of course after Joseph Smith dug them up.



Sounds perfectly religious to me.

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