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The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 5:56:40 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		The statement "I feel sorry for women who have not experienced the joy of motherhood." was made in another thread, and responses to that statement completely took it over.

I was even told to mind my own business though I was stating what was wrong with the statement and supporting the way some collarme members felt by it.

Let me explain something.

In 1983, I was home on leave when I was called by the family member of a life long friend of mine.

It seems that after three miscarriages, my friends OBGYN told her that she would never carry a child to term. This was at about 10 in the morning, by 3 in the afternoon, her husband had moved all of his belongings out of the house and filed for divorce because she could not have children.

When I showed up, I found her sitting in the dark, drunk off her ass with a pistol in her hand. I spent the next couple of hours talking to her and trying to get the gun from her, she finally passed out. Somehow she woke up with a new resolve to live as full a life as possible, and coming from a Catholic family that centered everything on children, she was going to have a hard time with it.

Now after three stints of being in a mental ward, years of therapy, and cutting all ties with her family, she is a happy woman with a full life.

I never fail to see the air of superiority that mothers present when they say "I feel sorry for a woman that never had children." Like it was a moral failing of the childless women.

When they find out there is a health reason, they get condescending and make matters worse.

Recently a member announced a pregnancy and was blunt about it being high risk.

Both my children were high risk pregnancies, and both my son and daughter were preemies. My son spent two months in NICU until his lungs could handle being out of a halo with a high O2 supply. My daughter spent almost three months in NICU. My wife and I were both raised Catholic and I was the one that told her to go on birth control, that we could adopt. Both times I damn near lost my wife and children.

While we ended up divorced, and eventually I ended up with the children, I never wanted my wife to risk her life to have kids. I wouldnt trade my children for anything in the world, but my world would have been ripped apart if I had lost all because she wanted to gamble.

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 6:17:18 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		It's a lot like saying in-person BDSM is more real, more valuable, than online BDSM. People remember their emotional lives before children, and after, they see how much more joy and fulfillment they feel after, so they say things like how sorry they feel for someone who misses out on that. It isn't an insult per se, nor a superiority thing, just a statement of "fact" as that person sees the world.

Of course, it can be used as a club. (Related example: consider the difference between "I'm a Christian and I'm a sinner just like you," as opposed to, "I'm a Christian so I'm saved and you aren't.") But, frankly, I see a lot of people taking offense where none is meant -- and the people who were the most offended seemed to be the most offended because they AGREED. "I really wanted to have a child, it would have meant the world to me, but I couldn't, so comments like that really rub me the wrong way." Well, frankly, stop taking your own pain out on other people. I'm childless and fine with that. If you aren't fine with it, you're angry at something, but it isn't the new poster who unknowingly rubbed salt into your wound.

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 6:21:12 PM   
LorraineCA


Posts: 114
Joined: 12/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

It's a lot like saying in-person BDSM is more real, more valuable, than online BDSM. People remember their emotional lives before children, and after, they see how much more joy and fulfillment they feel after, so they say things like how sorry they feel for someone who misses out on that. It isn't an insult per se, nor a superiority thing, just a statement of "fact" as that person sees the world.

Of course, it can be used as a club. (Related example: consider the difference between "I'm a Christian and I'm a sinner just like you," as opposed to, "I'm a Christian so I'm saved and you aren't.") But, frankly, I see a lot of people taking offense where none is meant -- and the people who were the most offended seemed to be the most offended because they AGREED. "I really wanted to have a child, it would have meant the world to me, but I couldn't, so comments like that really rub me the wrong way." Well, frankly, stop taking your own pain out on other people. I'm childless and fine with that. If you aren't fine with it, you're angry at something, but it isn't the new poster who unknowingly rubbed salt into your wound.


Thank you RedMagic1, I couldn't have said it any better than you did. I wish you were on the thread where it occurred, which has been closed by the Moderator.

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 6:22:26 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14449
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		I have PCOS, carry the antibody that causes miscarriages and I'm a DES baby, which caused Clear cell adenocarcinoma. I wasn't sure I wanted children when I was younger, but the choice was taken away from me.

I've had guys that wouldn't date me. An ex-fiance that pushed me to have a baby even knowing that it was a high risk pregnancy. I had a guy here on CM tell me that I was useless because I couldn't have children.

There's a bigotry and discrimination that goes on in society against women who don't have children..and the "I feel sorry for" statement was a good example of that bigotry.

I'm glad that you're happy that you have children, but the reality is that it's not an achievement to have the ability to get pregnant. It's a biological happenstance that you had no control over. And truly it wouldn't be any different than an Aryan saying that they feel sorry for everyone that isn't a white, blue eyed, blonde. Oh, wait, yeah it would because the Aryan would be called a racist, while the breeder would just get a free pass because it's okay to bash women who can't or don't want to have children.

The discrimination happens everyday. At the grocery store...special parking for people with children. Being expected to pick up the slack at work because someone else has kids and I don't. Having my vacations rearranged because a co-workers kids have school vacation. And then there's the thoughtless comments that relegate us to being second class citizens...and to make it worse, it's usually another woman that makes the comment.





< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 1/8/2014 6:49:59 PM >

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 6:39:12 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA
Thank you RedMagic1, I couldn't have said it any better than you did. I wish you were on the thread where it occurred, which has been closed by the Moderator.

I was. I thought it would have been rude to the OP, and contrary to site policy, to have this conversation there.

However, as long as you're here, I hope you can see why someone like OsideGirl might not have liked the way you said things. Nobody likes to be pitied. I'm sure you wouldn't be thrilled if someone said they "felt sorry" for you, because of something you might feel bad about.

Anyway, I've said my piece, and I'm going to leave this conversation.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 6:39:28 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I really don't think Lorraine meant to upset or offend anyone. I think she was trying to express her joy in her kids, and used an unfortunate turn of phrase. The problem with "I feel sorry for" phrases is that they are automatically setting someone up for pity. Not something most people enjoy.

There are people who can't have kids, don't want to have kids, have had kids and lost them - any number of reasons for not having kids, and aren't thrilled to be reminded that there is even an issue.

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 6:45:24 PM   
ShaharThorne


Posts: 11071
Joined: 2/24/2009
From: Somewhere in TX
Status: offline 		Having endometrosis is a bitch. Took 2 miscarriages and painful cycles before I made myself go to a GYN who specialized in fertility issues. I had stage 4, which was severe. 2 months later, I had another miscarriage and was told that I probably could not have a baby. One Saturday, I tried to go to work but I was so sick, I could not get out of bed. Went to the ER that night and when told that I was pregnant, denied it until the tech showed me the ultrasound. Got referred to an OB who went out of his way to make sure I carried this pregnancy to full term. In total I lost 5 babies (4 miscarriages, first one was conjoined twins). I tried to be a good mother to my daughter but 3 Dominant personalities in one household can wear a person down. I am also bipolar and when I went off the deep end, her father took over so I can try to take care of myself. It took 3 hospitalizations to find the right regime of drugs and I reside with my mother now and being treated. I go see my daughter every few months and she will turn 19 next month. She is not in a relationship and she is not interested in having children, caring for a friend's sons when she goes visits them (she was dating their son for years).

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 7:14:29 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I have a child but I admit there were many times that I saw having a child as the exact opposite of being full of joy. Instead I kept remembering what it was like to not have one and how much I missed out on being young. That's not to say I don't love her...I do very much.

But I admit, even though I still love her as much as a person can possibly love their child, I'm still glad she's grown up and moved out!

It's rough though when you know you can't have one though. I have some family members who are in that situation and it can be heartbreaking to see. There are times I have even felt guilty in the past that I have a child when in reality I never wanted any and there are people out there who want them and can't have them.


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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 7:37:42 PM   
VideoAdminGamma


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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 7:51:07 PM   
VideoAdminGamma


Posts: 2233
Status: offline 		The topic of having children and on welfare, or anything close to that is not part of the OP. That topic can be taken to Politics and Religion. Those posts that started it have been pulled and the string of replies to them.

Personal attacks against other users, whether you believe it is the truth or not, is not allowed.

Please use self control when posting. If you find yourself getting too emotional then please step back and wait to post. If another poster is pushing your buttons and you believe you cannot control yourself then please use the hide feature.

Thanks,
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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 7:55:08 PM   
anniezz338


Posts: 1183
Joined: 8/17/2010
Status: offline 		I don't see the "I feel sorry for you because you never had children" as something to be angry about. But when it is said, it will start some sparks. I was in the same spots as OsideGirl having no children, working holidays, extra work because mother is with sick child, etc. It can be a bone of contention because people expect more work time from a childless mother because they have nothing to hurry home for.

Everyone has their own story to tell as far as health issues, miscarriages, and other reasons for having no children. One thing I always think about when I see people with alot of children is were these planned pregnacies. I applaude the people who plan their pregnancies accordingly. My sister got pregnant when she was 16. After the baby came, she immediately began college. If they can get on welfare, they can damn sure get the funds to go to college.

When I was in college, I was never eligible for any grants but if you had choldren, they handed you money hand over fist. Free daycare, help with housing, and I even saw one girl eligible for a boob job. How the fuck does that shit happen?

Bringing a child into this world and raising them to be responsible contributing adults is one of the most important things a human being can do. It's just sad that there are so many unplanned pregnancies by unresponsible people.


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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 8:05:57 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
my world would have been ripped apart if I had lost all because she wanted to gamble.

this I do not understand.. your wife had a high risk, yes, I agree with you having kids with that risk would not be a good idea but even low risk doesn't mean no risk.. there is risk in everything.. you can go in to a salon for a pedicure and die from that too.. its happened..

I did grow up poor but not on welfare.. growing up poor was hard enough.. When I was 18 a girl in my school got pregnant and she kept her child.. I would see her in the store sometimes.. I felt sorry for her kid cuz it was gonna be hard for the kid and also cuz history tends too often to repeat.. I could never see doing that to a kid, so I never had any (so far).. I feel sorry for the kids that grow up on welfare and have to live so close to the edge.. to not have what middle class kids have.. to not even get enough to eat (as some of the poorest do).. I would rather not ever have kids than do that to them.. I also used to believe kids needed both parents, but my view on that has changed, I would go it alone if there was not a nice guy in my life and if that meant I needed to learn to play baseball or to learn to fish and gut them, to learn the “manly” stuff to teach my kid, damn it, I would do that too..

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/8/2014 8:35:03 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		That is the way I see it too Red.
Yeah I have children and it was great BUT, there are many people who either cannot have them, or I dare to say it, SHOULD NOT have them. And there are those who know they are not meant for them and choose to refrain.

Nevertheless I do not view it as a personal attack anymore than I would be offended if a Lotto winner would say, they feel sorry for someone who hasn't won.

In this world it is just better to keep joy closeted so as not to offend.
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

People remember their emotional lives before children, and after, they see how much more joy and fulfillment they feel after, so they say things like how sorry they feel for someone who misses out on that.
It isn't an insult per se, nor a superiority thing, just a statement of "fact" as that person sees the world.




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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/9/2014 1:15:16 AM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
the reality is that it's not an achievement to have the ability to get pregnant. It's a biological happenstance that you had no control over. And truly it wouldn't be any different than an Aryan saying that they feel sorry for everyone that isn't a white, blue eyed, blonde. Oh, wait, yeah it would because the Aryan would be called a racist, while the breeder would just get a free pass because it's okay to bash women who can't or don't want to have children.

The discrimination happens everyday. At the grocery store...special parking for people with children. Being expected to pick up the slack at work because someone else has kids and I don't. Having my vacations rearranged because a co-workers kids have school vacation. And then there's the thoughtless comments that relegate us to being second class citizens...and to make it worse, it's usually another woman that makes the comment.


Very well said

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/9/2014 3:05:57 AM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		I can see both sides. Meaning, I see how it could have been taken, and I see that it wasn't meant to be insulting. Just a figure of speech more or less.


I will admit, that when I read the statement, my eyebrow cocked. So I took it the same way the offended people took it. However, after reading other opinions, I see that it wasn't meant the way it was given...but, it WAS given. So, I do think an apology would have been in order to the people who were offended by it. But, do your thing. Live life how you see fit. We can only observe and judge.

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/9/2014 3:19:24 AM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
Status: offline 		i was told I couldn't have children, and the news didn't bother me because I didn't want children anyway. my son just happened to come along, but the pregnancy was risky, and damn hard on me. my best friend was happy for me, but hated me for it all at the same time because she couldn't have children, and it's all she had ever wanted to do, be a mum. in the end she had treatment, and had two children. I would never have dreamed of saying to her at any point that I felt sorry for her because I had a child and she didn't. it would have been down right insensitive of me. I felt bad on my own part that it had happened for me when I didn't want children, but that she did. in truth I also found being a mum very hard. I wasn't a natural at it. I suffered pnd so didn't automatically love my son. I was pushed into breast feeding which I hated every second of because it hurt so much. my SIL's both had babies and made it look so easy which made me feel worse. I felt inadequate.

things got easier, and I grew to love my son. I love him more than anything that exists. I am proud of the young man he has become, and I wouldn't be without him. however, assuming that being a mother is the best thing ever is not correct for everyone. it is not the only thing that defines a woman either whether she is a mother, or not. I know of women that have been desperate for children, had the treatment, spent the many thousands, got the child, the child turns out to be a nightmare, and the mother realises that it wasn't exactly the joy she thought it was going to be.

as I said before; I don't feel sorry for women that can't have children. I empathise with them because it must be awful to have that drive, but not be able, for whatever reason, to act on it. however, there are other ways and means of being a mother, and plenty of children desperate for a family. if you can't, or don't want to go down that road then so be it. i'm still not going to feel sorry for you because while it's tough, you're not dying. it may sound harsh, but even if you were dying there's nothing to say you'd still want me to feel sorry for you. I certainly would not have wanted any woman feeling sorry for me because I was told I couldn't have children. nor that having had my son there was no chance of having any more.

needles

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/9/2014 4:04:09 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Have to agree with you Needles. I have two kids and would rather I was childless. I basically raised them myself, with my husband being a workaholic. Even after we divorced, he was unreliable.
I love my kids, and wish they would get off the payroll. Actually, both of my kids had issues which made raising them ... difficult. I keep thinking if I had had kids that were "normal", I would have enjoyed it more. As it was, it was stressful and hard work, which combined with working a stressful job and an absentee father who felt very entitled to criticize, made it hard to enjoy the process.

Life is hard and then they grow up, but not necessarily out...... *sigh*

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/9/2014 4:40:33 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

It's a lot like saying in-person BDSM is more real, more valuable, than online BDSM. People remember their emotional lives before children, and after, they see how much more joy and fulfillment they feel after, so they say things like how sorry they feel for someone who misses out on that. It isn't an insult per se, nor a superiority thing, just a statement of "fact" as that person sees the world.

Of course, it can be used as a club. (Related example: consider the difference between "I'm a Christian and I'm a sinner just like you," as opposed to, "I'm a Christian so I'm saved and you aren't.") But, frankly, I see a lot of people taking offense where none is meant -- and the people who were the most offended seemed to be the most offended because they AGREED. "I really wanted to have a child, it would have meant the world to me, but I couldn't, so comments like that really rub me the wrong way." Well, frankly, stop taking your own pain out on other people. I'm childless and fine with that. If you aren't fine with it, you're angry at something, but it isn't the new poster who unknowingly rubbed salt into your wound.


I think it is very easy to simply forget that besides the definitions that words connect to they also connect to connotations.

I don't think the OP meant any insult.
But there is a difference between empathy and pity, and unfortunately the variations of "feeling sorry for... " connect to the latter.

I really appreciate this thread, and the openness of jif1961's post.




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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/9/2014 5:58:44 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		I really do admire the posters who were offended by the I feel sorry for" statement that inspired this thread. None have ever had any batshit crazy reactions on here that I have witnessed, or, if they did I agreed with them so it didn't appear to be batshit crazy to me.

That said, I really do not get how it was an offensive statement. I could say I feel sorry for anyone who has never witnessed a sunset like the one I saw last night, I feel sorry for anyone allergic to peanut butter because it is the best tasting thing around, or I feel sorry for any woman who has not had children. All of these things are, to me, just expressing a thought that I wish everyone could feel the joy that those things brought to me.

It is not saying blind people got fucked because they will never see the sunset, people with peanut allergies will never lead a full life, or women who are unable to have children are lesser human beings than I am.

The only way, to me, that it could be offensive is if I was a blind person, peanut allergic person or a woman unable to have children,who had other issues regarding my situation and took offense to it.

Like I said, I adore everyone who has stated they were offended by it, but I honestly cannot figure out how it is offensive.

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RE: The "I feel sorry for" statement. - 1/9/2014 9:11:28 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		~FR~

I saw the original post and, although I wasn't particularly offended, I thought the remark was somewhat crass and unnecessary.

I have friends who have children. I have friends who don't have children. I don't see any difference between the two, except some just happened to have had a child. I have never wanted children. They just weren't that important a factor in my life. I'm sure I'd have loved them if I'd had them, but there was no biological urge to have one.

Now I teach children with special needs. Every one of my children is awesome in some way, and I love them all. Some of my children's parents are awesome and they are lucky to have that child, and vice versa. Some of them are absolute shite and should never be allowed near a child at all, never mind one that needs extra nurturing and support.

I think seeing these different kinds of parent-child relationship made me realise that giving birth to a child really is nothing special. Anyone can do it. It's what you do with the child after it's born that makes the difference. I know I'm an important part of the life of each of my children and for some children I'm nearly as good as mum or dad. But for some of my other children, I'm the closest thing they have to a parent.

I may not have squirted a sprog out of my nether regions, but I know I'm a better mother than some who have.



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