Only a matter of time on govt. spying

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MrRodgers -> Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/16/2013 6:08:48 PM)
I am sure this will go to the supremes. How do you think it will go ? They could always come up with our fascist favorite...'a compelling state interest.' If the supremes uphold the govt. (NSA)...the people are done once and for all. Then the feds will surely have carte blanch. Here

EdBowie -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/16/2013 6:22:01 PM)
A compelling state interest, is not allowing people to falsely yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater. To not allow religious practices like human sacrifice, or child bride/rape. To not allow 10 year olds to drive on the public roads. To not allow blind people to have pilots licenses. I'm sure you'll waste no time rationally explaining why all of those are actually good things... [8\|]

MrRodgers -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/16/2013 10:19:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie A compelling state interest, is not allowing people to falsely yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater. To not allow religious practices like human sacrifice, or child bride/rape. To not allow 10 year olds to drive on the public roads. To not allow blind people to have pilots licenses. I'm sure you'll waste no time rationally explaining why all of those are actually good things... [8\|] Not nearly the same thing. Those are not specified in the constitution as the judge simply reminded us. Human sacrifice is murder. Rape is assault and 10 year olds are not of the age of majority, the same reason they can't contract or vote. Blind people don't qualify as pilots and cannot be licensed. Come on now. The whole national security rationale is the canard for 'compelling state interest' at I predict. Not a very good try really.

isoLadyOwner -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/16/2013 10:27:45 PM)
The spying must serve a compelling state interest and it must be narrowly tailored. Grabbing everyone's electronic records is the opposite of a narrowly tailored Government intrusion. Its as if 0bama is desperate to go down in history as the worst enemy of Privacy Rights in US History.

FellowSlave -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 12:05:31 AM)
Are Americans insane? It is unconstitutional. However, it shouldn't even matter, totalitarian governments do not give a shit what the constitution says. It is a violation of universal human rights. The government has de facto declared war against the general population. War requires radical adequate response. The Supreme Court is not with you, it is a part of the plutocratic class.

joether -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 12:27:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers I am sure this will go to the supremes. How do you think it will go ? They could always come up with our fascist favorite...'a compelling state interest.' If the supremes uphold the govt. (NSA)...the people are done once and for all. Then the feds will surely have carte blanch. Here So its one epically large conspiracy, right? I can see both sides of it as 'Defending Americans' from evil. On one side its the '4th amendment trumps the NSA'. On the other, its 'proactive monitoring to find and catch evil before it does something REALLY bad. The NSA's role is as a n intelligence gathering operation. To find and remove threats before they do damage to American infrastructure, kill American citizens or both. They are not allowed to come out and declare they were the ones that prevents some horrible event from taking place. An that those plotting things generally take some time to develop their plan before the execution. This could take hours, days, weeks, or months. Those would be evil-doers are not going to start their plans were its convenient for law enforcement to locate and prevent. Likewise, those wishing to do such evil will use any means of communication they think is secure. Be in cellphones, email, or guild chat in some MMO game. An while the NSA many have many thousands of people, they are only interested in a vary narrow group of humans. The rest of the information is mostly irrelevant unless circumstances change that forces previous unquestioned material to be put back under the examination 'light'. On the flip side, the NSA could not collect details on someone unless there is '...probable cause...'. However by the time such persons become of interest, the NSA is playing catch up on something that could be...really deadly....to America. After the carnage, people place blame towards federal agencies including the NSA asking "Why did you not stop this before it happened'? Its a really tough decision quite frankly. Its not 'black and white' but a very fine grey in-between. Will be interesting to watch no doubt. An I'm sure there will be plenty of people that display their total 'lack of a brain' when a decision is released.

joether -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 12:29:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FellowSlave Are Americans insane? It is unconstitutional. However, it shouldn't even matter, totalitarian governments do not give a shit what the constitution says. It is a violation of universal human rights. The government has de facto declared war against the general population. War requires radical adequate response. The Supreme Court is not with you, it is a part of the plutocratic class. ...I think someone is in need of therapy....

EdBowie -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 12:29:19 AM)
Exactly the same thing... freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, etc. are spelled out in the Constitution, your claims notwithstanding... and all have rational limits. That's where the notion of 'a compelling state interest is required to overcome the rights of the individual' comes from. And from that we get licensure, age of majority, etc. It's also where we got the draft, and Japanese American internment camps from. And the courts have never claimed that it was an unlimited state power to be automatically deferred to just by claiming it. Nixon tried to argue a compelling state interest too, how well did that work out for him? (BTW, just killing people isn't 'murder' until the government says it is a crime). You aren't really up on this civics stuff, are you? quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie A compelling state interest, is not allowing people to falsely yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater. To not allow religious practices like human sacrifice, or child bride/rape. To not allow 10 year olds to drive on the public roads. To not allow blind people to have pilots licenses. I'm sure you'll waste no time rationally explaining why all of those are actually good things... [8\|] Not nearly the same thing. Those are not specified in the constitution as the judge simply reminded us. Human sacrifice is murder. Rape is assault and 10 year olds are not of the age of majority, the same reason they can't contract or vote. Blind people don't qualify as pilots and cannot be licensed. Come on now. The whole national security rationale is the canard for 'compelling state interest' at I predict. Not a very good try really.

vincentML -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 8:41:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner The spying must serve a compelling state interest and it must be narrowly tailored. Grabbing everyone's electronic records is the opposite of a narrowly tailored Government intrusion. Its as if 0bama is desperate to go down in history as the worst enemy of Privacy Rights in US History. How can it be narrowly tailored if the identities of the enemy agents are unknown? Electronic messages that leave the home are no more sacrosanct than paper records. Every letter sent by post reveals the address of the recipient. As for Obama, pure nonsense. Quoting Machiavelli loosely: when it comes to protecting the state you do what you gotta do. However, the wise Prince will not be deaf to the voices in the alleyways. Obama has been quite conservative in his actions.

Moonhead -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 9:20:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Nixon tried to argue a compelling state interest too, how well did that work out for him? Not half as well as hysterical bullshit about either being with him or hating America worked for the Kenyan's predecessor in office. I suppose actually trying to find and/or fake a legal basis for your shitting all over the constitution and the bill of rights holds less weight for the American right (and alleged "independents" who are mostly to the right of even the most wingnut elements of the GOP) than histrionics, hysteria and paranoid nonsense about evil foreigners and their fellow travellers. I wonder what that says about the American right as a whole?

MrRodgers -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 10:09:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner The spying must serve a compelling state interest and it must be narrowly tailored. Grabbing everyone's electronic records is the opposite of a narrowly tailored Government intrusion. Its as if 0bama is desperate to go down in history as the worst enemy of Privacy Rights in US History. Obama again ? Talk about short memories. This type of search was going on and abused back in 2003 when Obama was a new senator. Plus, like I've said, presidents do what they need to do...to stay alive.

MrRodgers -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 10:20:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Exactly the same thing... freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, etc. are spelled out in the Constitution, your claims notwithstanding... and all have rational limits. That's where the notion of 'a compelling state interest is required to overcome the rights of the individual' comes from. And from that we get licensure, age of majority, etc. It's also where we got the draft, and Japanese American internment camps from. And the courts have never claimed that it was an unlimited state power to be automatically deferred to just by claiming it. Nixon tried to argue a compelling state interest too, how well did that work out for him? (BTW, just killing people isn't 'murder' until the government says it is a crime). You aren't really up on this civics stuff, are you? quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie A compelling state interest, is not allowing people to falsely yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater. To not allow religious practices like human sacrifice, or child bride/rape. To not allow 10 year olds to drive on the public roads. To not allow blind people to have pilots licenses. I'm sure you'll waste no time rationally explaining why all of those are actually good things... [8\|] Not nearly the same thing. Those are not specified in the constitution as the judge simply reminded us. Human sacrifice is murder. Rape is assault and 10 year olds are not of the age of majority, the same reason they can't contract or vote. Blind people don't qualify as pilots and cannot be licensed. Come on now. The whole national security rationale is the canard for 'compelling state interest' at I predict. Not a very good try really. Civic 'stuff' is a non-sequitur. We are talking about rights specifically spelled out in the constitution...a right to privacy in their 'persons, papers and 'things.' Your argument is exactly how the Nazis started. Like I've written, these we see now are the small baby steps to condition society into acquiesce. Seems to be working.

FellowSlave -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 11:33:39 AM)
quote: ...I think someone is in need of therapy.... Political correctness, and advocating tolerance are the tools in the hands of the ruling class. Let us just bow down and wait for Jesus to come.

mnottertail -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 11:38:01 AM)
Fuckin guy is way late already, he has missed several appointments. I dont think that he can argue a case effectively against our supreme court, he cant even take a sanhedrin on, and our guys are far more ideological than them. I cant wait.

stef -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 11:49:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FellowSlave Political correctness, and advocating tolerance are the tools in the hands of the ruling class. Let us just bow down and wait for Jesus to come. Will he be able to fix you?

FellowSlave -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 3:24:35 PM)
quote: Will he be able to fix you? Why not to hospitalize the members of the Congress and the presidents who push this idiocy.

EdBowie -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 8:55:17 PM)
I don't know about 'as a whole', but that incoherent rant says a lot about your extreme fringe of it. quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Nixon tried to argue a compelling state interest too, how well did that work out for him? Not half as well as hysterical bullshit about either being with him or hating America worked for the Kenyan's predecessor in office. I suppose actually trying to find and/or fake a legal basis for your shitting all over the constitution and the bill of rights holds less weight for the American right (and alleged "independents" who are mostly to the right of even the most wingnut elements of the GOP) than histrionics, hysteria and paranoid nonsense about evil foreigners and their fellow travellers. I wonder what that says about the American right as a whole?

EdBowie -> RE: Only a matter of time on govt. spying (12/17/2013 9:03:37 PM)
The same rights that you just denied were in the Constitution , are now suddenly 'spelled out', instead of being enumerated? But actually spelling out what they are, and how they work in real life is 'a non sequitur'? I don't think those things mean what you think they mean. quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Exactly the same thing... freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, etc. are spelled out in the Constitution, your claims notwithstanding... and all have rational limits. That's where the notion of 'a compelling state interest is required to overcome the rights of the individual' comes from. And from that we get licensure, age of majority, etc. It's also where we got the draft, and Japanese American internment camps from. And the courts have never claimed that it was an unlimited state power to be automatically deferred to just by claiming it. Nixon tried to argue a compelling state interest too, how well did that work out for him? (BTW, just killing people isn't 'murder' until the government says it is a crime). You aren't really up on this civics stuff, are you? quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie A compelling state interest, is not allowing people to falsely yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater. To not allow religious practices like human sacrifice, or child bride/rape. To not allow 10 year olds to drive on the public roads. To not allow blind people to have pilots licenses. I'm sure you'll waste no time rationally explaining why all of those are actually good things... [8\|] Not nearly the same thing. Those are not specified in the constitution as the judge simply reminded us. Human sacrifice is murder. Rape is assault and 10 year olds are not of the age of majority, the same reason they can't contract or vote. Blind people don't qualify as pilots and cannot be licensed. Come on now. The whole national security rationale is the canard for 'compelling state interest' at I predict. Not a very good try really. Civic 'stuff' is a non-sequitur. We are talking about rights specifically spelled out in the constitution...a right to privacy in their 'persons, papers and 'things.' Your argument is exactly how the Nazis started. Like I've written, these we see now are the small baby steps to condition society into acquiesce. Seems to be working.

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