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Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on Syri... - 12/9/2013 6:15:37 AM   
Kana


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Presented w/o comment for discussion

Article here

FTFA
quote:


"But in recent interviews with intelligence and military officers and consultants past and present, I found intense concern, and on occasion anger, over what was repeatedly seen as the deliberate manipulation of intelligence. One high-level intelligence officer, in an email to a colleague, called the administration’s assurances of Assad’s responsibility a ‘ruse’. The attack ‘was not the result of the current regime’, he wrote. A former senior intelligence official told me that the Obama administration had altered the available information – in terms of its timing and sequence – to enable the president and his advisers to make intelligence retrieved days after the attack look as if it had been picked up and analysed in real time, as the attack was happening. The distortion, he said, reminded him of the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, when the Johnson administration reversed the sequence of National Security Agency intercepts to justify one of the early bombings of North Vietnam. The same official said there was immense frustration inside the military and intelligence bureaucracy: ‘The guys are throwing their hands in the air and saying, “How can we help this guy” – Obama – “when he and his cronies in the White House make up the intelligence as they go along?


< Message edited by Kana -- 12/9/2013 6:45:27 AM >


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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 6:20:40 AM   
Kana


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Main article here

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 6:52:11 AM   
Yachtie


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Okay, Kana, why don't you begin the discussion.

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 7:06:42 AM   
TheHeretic


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FR

Since the events, with Assad as the perpetrator, forced President Obama into a corner with his "red line," ultimately making him look like a fool on the world stage, what, exactly would be the motivation to twist the data?



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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 7:10:27 AM   
Kana


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Sure-If this can be verified, it's the coup de grace of the administration.
Lame duck for three years. Just crushing.
If true, this will really really cause geopolitical damage to the US.
.
And I'm on record at the time of having real doubts re the veracity of the reports.


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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 7:15:01 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

Since the events, with Assad as the perpetrator, forced President Obama into a corner with his "red line," ultimately making him look like a fool on the world stage, what, exactly would be the motivation to twist the data?



Here's the base narrative:
The administration wants Assad gone.
The administration is looking for an excuse to take part in the war, ala Libya.
The rebels know this. Know O has made the line in the sand comment, use chemical weapons to pull us in.
O grabs the bait and runs with it...

Sound familiar?
It should

But read the articles.
I don't cite whackjob crap and/or uber biased sites. I try to stick to stuff I could cite in a doctoral thesis.
You may or may not disagree with the articles thrusts,but they are interesting

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 8:05:54 AM   
angelikaJ


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In September Assad denied that they even had chemical weapons (Charlie Rose interview).
This was not true.

So, to me the suspicion is still on Assad.

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 8:43:02 AM   
Kana


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Again.Read the article.It makes it clear that the rebels could,and did, manufacture chem weapons and that the administration was aware of this.
That the reels had access to chemical weapons isn't news.I remember reading it when the attacks occurred.
That the administration had internal reports on it and ignored them in order to follow an already set in place political agenda is.

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 10:39:33 AM   
DomKen


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Producing sarin at the purity needed to use in a rocket attack is not something that can be done with out a fairly sophisticated chemical plant. I can find no evidence that the Syrian rebels control such a facility.

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 12:55:09 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Producing sarin at the purity needed to use in a rocket attack is not something that can be done with out a fairly sophisticated chemical plant. I can find no evidence that the Syrian rebels control such a facility.


Well Gee Ken, I don't own (control) a Bengali Tiger either.
Savages that execute soldiers by shooting them in the back of the head and dumping their bodies into a well would never STEAL chemical weapons would they? Or buy them from a third party.
Of course President Snow lied about this,..... why wouldn't he, he's lied about everything else from Bengazzi to Egypt, to fast and furious, to.....whatever.
DomKen, if you LIKE your own chemical plant,...you can KEEP your own chemical plant.

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 2:13:03 PM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Producing sarin at the purity needed to use in a rocket attack is not something that can be done with out a fairly sophisticated chemical plant. I can find no evidence that the Syrian rebels control such a facility.

Sigh
No one bothers to read anymore. They just spout their pre-detrmined diatribes
FTFA,direct quote

"Already by late May, the senior intelligence consultant told me, the CIA had briefed the Obama administration on al-Nusra and its work with sarin, and had sent alarming reports that another Sunni fundamentalist group active in Syria, al-Qaida in Iraq (AQI), also understood the science of producing sarin. At the time, al-Nusra was operating in areas close to Damascus, including Eastern Ghouta. An intelligence document issued in mid-summer dealt extensively with Ziyaad Tariq Ahmed, a chemical weapons expert formerly of the Iraqi military, who was said to have moved into Syria and to be operating in Eastern Ghouta. The consultant told me that Tariq had been identified ‘as an al-Nusra guy with a track record of making mustard gas in Iraq and someone who is implicated in making and using sarin’. He is regarded as a high-profile target by the American military.

On 20 June a four-page top secret cable summarising what had been learned about al-Nusra’s nerve gas capabilities was forwarded to David R. Shedd, deputy director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. ‘What Shedd was briefed on was extensive and comprehensive,’ the consultant said. ‘It was not a bunch of “we believes”.’ He told me that the cable made no assessment as to whether the rebels or the Syrian army had initiated the attacks in March and April, but it did confirm previous reports that al-Nusra had the ability to acquire and use sarin. A sample of the sarin that had been used was also recovered – with the help of an Israeli agent – but, according to the consultant, no further reporting about the sample showed up in cable traffic."

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 2:27:40 PM   
angelikaJ


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Assad said they did not have any chemical weapons.

The point I am trying to make, while Hershfeld's claims are being sorted, is that Assad denied that the Syrian Government had any chemical weapons and 1,300 tons were found by the OPCW.
Not *just* Sarin.


To go from a stockpile of zero to one of 2,600,000 lbs is a substantial mis-statement.

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 2:32:51 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

In September Assad denied that they even had chemical weapons (Charlie Rose interview).

Asked by Rose whether any retaliation for U.S. strikes could include the use of chemical weapons, Assad -- whose government has never confirmed officially that it even has chemical weapons -- said it would depend "if the rebels or the terrorists in this region or any other group have it. It could happen, I don't know. I am not fortune teller." ~CBS News

That doesn't sound to me like someone denying that he has any.

K.


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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 2:45:33 PM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Assad said they did not have any chemical weapons.

The point I am trying to make, while Hershfeld's claims are being sorted, is that Assad denied that the Syrian Government had any chemical weapons and 1,300 tons were found by the OPCW.
Not *just* Sarin.


To go from a stockpile of zero to one of 2,600,000 lbs is a substantial mis-statement.

What in the world could anything Assad have claimed have anything to do with the allegation that the administration distorted, ignored and buried information?

We knew he had chemical weapons. He knew we knew.We monitored them and he was aware of that too. The articles make that apparent. So any claims Assad made were purely facile and PR and of absolutely zero geopolitical import to anyone,negotiators,war planners,the rebels,allies,enemies,whoever.Syria's possession of chem weapons is an open secret...kinda like the officially nonexistent Israeli nuclear program.

This line of discussion is a red herring, obfuscating the central allegation

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 4:24:31 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Producing sarin at the purity needed to use in a rocket attack is not something that can be done with out a fairly sophisticated chemical plant. I can find no evidence that the Syrian rebels control such a facility.

Sigh
No one bothers to read anymore. They just spout their pre-detrmined diatribes
FTFA,direct quote

"Already by late May, the senior intelligence consultant told me, the CIA had briefed the Obama administration on al-Nusra and its work with sarin, and had sent alarming reports that another Sunni fundamentalist group active in Syria, al-Qaida in Iraq (AQI), also understood the science of producing sarin. At the time, al-Nusra was operating in areas close to Damascus, including Eastern Ghouta. An intelligence document issued in mid-summer dealt extensively with Ziyaad Tariq Ahmed, a chemical weapons expert formerly of the Iraqi military, who was said to have moved into Syria and to be operating in Eastern Ghouta. The consultant told me that Tariq had been identified ‘as an al-Nusra guy with a track record of making mustard gas in Iraq and someone who is implicated in making and using sarin’. He is regarded as a high-profile target by the American military.

On 20 June a four-page top secret cable summarising what had been learned about al-Nusra’s nerve gas capabilities was forwarded to David R. Shedd, deputy director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. ‘What Shedd was briefed on was extensive and comprehensive,’ the consultant said. ‘It was not a bunch of “we believes”.’ He told me that the cable made no assessment as to whether the rebels or the Syrian army had initiated the attacks in March and April, but it did confirm previous reports that al-Nusra had the ability to acquire and use sarin. A sample of the sarin that had been used was also recovered – with the help of an Israeli agent – but, according to the consultant, no further reporting about the sample showed up in cable traffic."

You didn't understand what I wrote. It is not sufficient to produce some sarin. If not produced at very high purity it reacts with the other chemicals in solution with it and breaks down. That was why Aum Shinrikyo's attacks only killed a few people. They produced such low purity sarin that it mostly broke down before it could be used. High purity sarin released into a subway car, in the quantities they used, would have killed everyone on board.

To produce sarin at the necessary levels of purity in any significant quantity needs industrial chemical engineering equipment. Roughly the same sort of equipment needed to produce organophosphate insecticides, which are essentially nerve agents.

As I said before I've looked and cannot find any evidence that the Syrian rebels control such a facility.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 12/9/2013 4:25:06 PM >

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RE: Seymour Hersh Alleges Obama Administration Lied on ... - 12/9/2013 5:50:18 PM   
popeye1250


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Obama lied.

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