Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (Full Version)

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LadiesBladewing -> Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 2:17:24 PM)

Before I can ask a question, I must share a missive of how I view submission. I have heard many discussions on the topic of submission. I have read the posts that say that, in order to obtain submission, the dominant individual must be strong enough to -take- what he or she wants. I have also read from those who have said that if one submits, one is no longer responsible for anything -- that the entirety of that life rests completely upon the dominant individual.

Here, we choose the following to guide our definition of submission:
quote:

sub·mit P Pronunciation Key (sb-mt)
v. sub·mit·ted, sub·mit·ting, sub·mits
v. tr.
To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
To subject to a condition or process.


It is both of these things for us -- both a surrendering to another's will and a subjugation to a process. Notice that neither of these says anything about surrendering one's will -- the definition says to surrender to the will of another -- which is, in itself, an act of will.

The next point that is crucial to me is the point where it discusses both yielding and surrendering -- again, these are active processes. No-one strips another of his or her will by force, and can call such a thing "submission". In such cases, at best, it is -theft-, and at worst, rape-of-will. But neither of these comes of a willingness to yield.

It often takes longer to obtain that willingness to yield. We of this modern era are notably stubborn. We value our independence and our personal self. To submit is to let go of the ego, and allow another's ego to be the guiding force in one's life. It is to accept that, in submission, things will not always go in the way one had planned, and to accept that, even if life deviates from the pictures one had in mind of what this thing would become, one will cherish the experience and grow in the capacity to let go (willingly and joyfully) of oneself and what one holds secret and private, in the interest of becoming part of a larger experience at the hands of a force that one cannot control.

In addition, submission is a process. Like any other process, if it is managed in a way that is beneficial for everyone involved, everyone involved will be changed by the process. If the relationship is healthy, a large percentage of the change will be positive for all involved, but that is not to say that the process will not have its own unproductive waste products that will need to be dealt with both -during- the submission process and when it ends.

Therefore, when people talk to me about submission, I expect to see yielding... I expect to see someone who, if they are considering submitting here, is ready to let -go-, daily, of preconceptions, expectations, inhibitions, and other reflections of the ego's control of itself. I don't want to have to "Pry it from their cold, dead fingers", so to speak -- I want it -offered-... given willingly... handed up as both a sacrifice and an sacrament -- a testament to the true willingness of this person to become what we desire and need -- not out of a sense of fear, but out of a genuine love of the process of becoming that comes from submission.

So here are the questions... What is the relationship between what I have described and the "taking" of something by fear and strength that seems to have become a common definition of "submission"?, and...

Where is the responsibility of the submissive in a submission that is not yielded daily, as an act of will, choosing the hard path of accepting another's direction, but is forced from him or her, allowing hir to be "blameless" and making hir a victim of domination, rather than having yielded in submission?

Lastly, is domination that promotes victimhood a growth-encouraging path in the end, in a place that I cannot see? If so, I am interested in how that works, if any are able/willing to share.

ZWD



Caretakr -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 2:28:26 PM)

Submission is the bonding to another, or an ideal, that trasnscends the individual.

The internal priority of self is reassigned.

To force this from without is not possible.

This is not submission,it is martyrdom.





sophia37 -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 2:42:59 PM)

Wow. What did you say? "if one submits, one is no longer responsible for anything -- that the entirety of that life rests completely upon the dominant individual." 
If thats the case,...where do I sign up? Excuse me, anyone out there care to take over all my responsibilites for me? Post your email here and I'll be in touch! What a deal!



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 2:44:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
So here are the questions... What is the relationship between what I have described and the "taking" of something by fear and strength that seems to have become a common definition of "submission"?, and...

I think they are two different processes that lead you to the same place.

The difference is that your process is likely to lead to long term happiness and fulfilment, while things based on fear rarely work in the long term. 

While I don't think a submissive necessarily needs to let go of all their preoccupations and expectation, they do need to understand the process and consequences of accepting the authority of another within their lives- and what it will mean to commit to that.
quote:


Where is the responsibility of the submissive in a submission that is not yielded daily, as an act of will, choosing the hard path of accepting another's direction, but is forced from him or her, allowing hir to be "blameless" and making hir a victim of domination, rather than having yielded in submission?

I don't think it actually works out in the blameless way.  As well, just because something is taken vs yielded does not mean the entire relationship has made the submissive a victim.
quote:


Lastly, is domination that promotes victimhood a growth-encouraging path in the end, in a place that I cannot see? If so, I am interested in how that works, if any are able/willing to share.

I don't think so.  I think healthy fulfilling relationships make us MORE powerful in who we are- slaves included.  One of the several reasons I do not use the term TPE or any form of "power" exchange.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 3:12:13 PM)

I am of the opinion that submission involves both, but in order for me to feel at peace/any measure of success, submission must largely be an act of his free will to surrender to me.

I was having a conversation with a submissive about how much I enjoy a man for the mere fact that he is a man, possessing a natural phallus which is something that allows me to connect primally and spiritually with him... 
I told him that I had, in my limited experience, found women to be largely more perceptive in terms of understanding my kink desires/needs, so that if it were not for the fact that one is a man (and that is what I respond to sexually), I would only dominate women.  
He commented that it was interesting, and said that most dominas in the past have said they dominate men because of the increased "challenge."   I told him I would pass on the challenge without giving it a second thought. 
This isn't to mean that everyone (man or woman) desn't find difficulties in submitting to another...  For myself, it simply means that I would prefer the person had already undergone the internal decision making, and was for the largest part comfortable with the idea of submission/subjugation as long as it did not endanger (very subjective I realize) him/her.       M



jonathan -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 5:58:12 PM)

This sort of thread is why i have found it so easy to comply with Her wishes and participate. Erudite discussion. As my Goddess does, LadiesBladewing 'has it surrounded'. i agree with BlkTallFullfig about the differences between sub men and women. i think it's how society molds us as we mature that makes it harder for men to be as open and as in touch with themselves. i know that i struggled with it for years. Thank heavens i eventually got over it!

"Lastly, is domination that promotes victimhood a growth-encouraging path in the end, in a place that I cannot see? If so, I am interested in how that works, if any are able/willing to share."

i don't see how it can be. No connotations of being a victim can be positive. i'm in an active process of evaluation right now, for real time service as a slave, and i'm giving it up because, as the weeks pass, it comes from my heart, my respect for Her understanding of M/s, my appreciation of Her as a person, and Her understanding of me as a submissive man. To be a victim is to experience fear and violence at some level. One cannot bind someone to true service out of that. Nothing lasting can be achieved.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 6:36:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
What is the relationship between what I have described and the "taking" of something by fear and strength that seems to have become a common definition of "submission"?


What you described, a yielding of self to another, contrasts one who is taken by force.  There is no relationship, other than I suppose one could say they are opposites.  In my case, Master was adamant that if I wished to submit to him, I would know what it entailed, and I would beg to do so.  That way there would be no question at all that my slavery to him is of my own free will.  I will sometimes say he came in and took control.  When I say that, it is mostly for emphasis.  Yes I chose to yield to him, but he touched me so deeply that in my heart I really had no choice.  There were no strong-arming or fear tactics about it, however.  He spoke to me and I was hooked.

quote:


Where is the responsibility of the submissive in a submission that is not yielded daily, as an act of will, choosing the hard path of accepting another's direction, but is forced from him or her, allowing hir to be "blameless" and making hir a victim of domination, rather than having yielded in submission?

I am trying to understand this question.  Are you asking if a person taken against his/her will is responsible for the actions put on him/her?  I suppose if I were held at gun point and told to hand over my families heirlooms and I did it, I could be held responsible for losing our family treasures.  But that was a choice I had to make - heirlooms or my life.  And in that case, my life would win out.  If I were held at gun point and told to harm a child, then I would have to say you are all welcome to attend my funeral.

quote:


Lastly, is domination that promotes victimhood a growth-encouraging path in the end, in a place that I cannot see? If so, I am interested in how that works, if any are able/willing to share.


I can not see anything that promotes victimhood as something that is healthy.  I would think any healthy relationship, D/s or otherwise, would bring out the best in each person involved, rather than devolve them to victims.



chainedsinner -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 7:29:39 PM)

i do believe a Mistress/Master should be strong-willed enough to take what She/He desires. Its difficult to worship a Dom/me who has difficulty asseting Him/Herself in a Dominant manner. i am a very submissive male-sexually/emotionally/psychologically, but when it comes to practical matters, such as ingesting an addictive narcotic, harming a child, or, something as simple as showing up to work on time, i believe common sense should prevail.  In the end, W/we each must be responsible for O/our own actions. No matter what is said between slave and Dom/me, that slave is still a free person in the eyes of society. Of course, in a healthy relationship, this is all pointless, since a Dom/me worthy of respect wouldn't subject a slave to abuse.



anthrosub -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 7:53:28 PM)

I think your exposition on what submission entails is pretty much on the mark.  It's what I ulitmately wish to achieve to the extent I'm expressing submission.  The only thing I can add for myself is the further stage of being a slave, which changes the equation somewhat but really only to a more intense degree I would say.
 
I imagine there would be three stages in my path.  The first would be one of shaping me to be more of what my Partner wants.  I think it's realistic that I may do some things better than others or maybe not at all at first and this is where training and discipline might be more frequent.  The second stage would be more of what I just described but to a lesser degree.
 
The third stage might be thought of as maintenance.  I would have achieved the behavior patterns expected of me and only now and then would there be any need of corrective measures.  I think the OP's definition fits right into this scenario.  I will be submitting as an act of will, handing over control through trust, and acting out of love and devotion.  The "taking" part would be more something my Partner might wish to do because it's something She enjoys on occasion.  But it is not the core of why I submit.
 
There would be fear of consequences just like any other aspect of life where one doesn't want to make mistakes.  As to the "strength" aspect, the only strength I would expect is my Partner's strength of character and steadfastness.  My responsibility is my submission just as Her responsibility is Her Domination.  We may agree there are times when they cannot be readily expressed but they are always present in the relationship.
 
anthrosub



feastie -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/3/2006 8:09:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing

Before I can ask a question, I must share a missive of how I view submission. I have heard many discussions on the topic of submission. I have read the posts that say that, in order to obtain submission, the dominant individual must be strong enough to -take- what he or she wants. I have also read from those who have said that if one submits, one is no longer responsible for anything -- that the entirety of that life rests completely upon the dominant individual.

Here, we choose the following to guide our definition of submission:
quote:

sub·mit P Pronunciation Key (sb-mt)
v. sub·mit·ted, sub·mit·ting, sub·mits
v. tr.
To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
To subject to a condition or process.


It is both of these things for us -- both a surrendering to another's will and a subjugation to a process. Notice that neither of these says anything about surrendering one's will -- the definition says to surrender to the will of another -- which is, in itself, an act of will.

The next point that is crucial to me is the point where it discusses both yielding and surrendering -- again, these are active processes. No-one strips another of his or her will by force, and can call such a thing "submission". In such cases, at best, it is -theft-, and at worst, rape-of-will. But neither of these comes of a willingness to yield.

It often takes longer to obtain that willingness to yield. We of this modern era are notably stubborn. We value our independence and our personal self. To submit is to let go of the ego, and allow another's ego to be the guiding force in one's life. It is to accept that, in submission, things will not always go in the way one had planned, and to accept that, even if life deviates from the pictures one had in mind of what this thing would become, one will cherish the experience and grow in the capacity to let go (willingly and joyfully) of oneself and what one holds secret and private, in the interest of becoming part of a larger experience at the hands of a force that one cannot control.

In addition, submission is a process. Like any other process, if it is managed in a way that is beneficial for everyone involved, everyone involved will be changed by the process. If the relationship is healthy, a large percentage of the change will be positive for all involved, but that is not to say that the process will not have its own unproductive waste products that will need to be dealt with both -during- the submission process and when it ends.

Therefore, when people talk to me about submission, I expect to see yielding... I expect to see someone who, if they are considering submitting here, is ready to let -go-, daily, of preconceptions, expectations, inhibitions, and other reflections of the ego's control of itself. I don't want to have to "Pry it from their cold, dead fingers", so to speak -- I want it -offered-... given willingly... handed up as both a sacrifice and an sacrament -- a testament to the true willingness of this person to become what we desire and need -- not out of a sense of fear, but out of a genuine love of the process of becoming that comes from submission.

So here are the questions... What is the relationship between what I have described and the "taking" of something by fear and strength that seems to have become a common definition of "submission"?, and...

Where is the responsibility of the submissive in a submission that is not yielded daily, as an act of will, choosing the hard path of accepting another's direction, but is forced from him or her, allowing hir to be "blameless" and making hir a victim of domination, rather than having yielded in submission?

Lastly, is domination that promotes victimhood a growth-encouraging path in the end, in a place that I cannot see? If so, I am interested in how that works, if any are able/willing to share.

ZWD


You've stated this beautifully, LadiesBladewing.  Thank you!



APerfectParadox -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/4/2006 4:54:28 AM)

quote:

  
It is both of these things for us -- both a surrendering to another's will and a subjugation to a process. Notice that neither of these says anything about surrendering one's will -- the definition says to surrender to the will of another -- which is, in itself, an act of will.

My submission is requires will power on my part.. I think   this is true of anyone with a  healthy ego and survival instinct.  
 
quote] 
So here are the questions... What is the relationship between what I have described and the "taking" of something by fear and strength that seems to have become a common definition of "submission"?, and...


Taking somethign from fear and strength is how i would define the physically abusive relationships from my past. It has nothing to do with submision ..he could not beat me into submission , he could only beat me.
 
quote:

 
Where is the responsibility of the submissive in a submission that is not yielded daily, as an act of will, choosing the hard path of accepting another's direction, but is forced from him or her, allowing hir to be "blameless" and making hir a victim of domination, rather than having yielded in submission?


They are making choices, whether it be the choice to capitulate, remain passive ,or identify as a victim..They chose to enter the lifestyle , as a way of avoiding the hard work that resolving their issues in therapy would require .  Choices by their nature have unavoidable  consequensces, default choices or  to be  in denial of  having made a choice won't change that fact. .
 
 Thank you .... LadiesBladewing your defination  of submision is by far the best i  have encountered and helped clarify my  own beliefs of what constitutes submission.



LadiesBladewing -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/4/2006 10:31:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

I think your exposition on what submission entails is pretty much on the mark.  It's what I ulitmately wish to achieve to the extent I'm expressing submission.  The only thing I can add for myself is the further stage of being a slave, which changes the equation somewhat but really only to a more intense degree I would say.
 
I imagine there would be three stages in my path.  The first would be one of shaping me to be more of what my Partner wants.  I think it's realistic that I may do some things better than others or maybe not at all at first and this is where training and discipline might be more frequent.  The second stage would be more of what I just described but to a lesser degree.
 
The third stage might be thought of as maintenance.  I would have achieved the behavior patterns expected of me and only now and then would there be any need of corrective measures.  I think the OP's definition fits right into this scenario.  I will be submitting as an act of will, handing over control through trust, and acting out of love and devotion.  The "taking" part would be more something my Partner might wish to do because it's something She enjoys on occasion.  But it is not the core of why I submit.
 
There would be fear of consequences just like any other aspect of life where one doesn't want to make mistakes.  As to the "strength" aspect, the only strength I would expect is my Partner's strength of character and steadfastness.  My responsibility is my submission just as Her responsibility is Her Domination.  We may agree there are times when they cannot be readily expressed but they are always present in the relationship.
 
anthrosub


I wanted to address an issue of semantics that you bring up here, anthrosub, from our perspective, for whatever it's worth -- What is the difference between "sub" and "slave".

Those who know me and have read things I've written will likely remember hearing me list the reasons that we don't use "sub" or "slave" here. Some of them are relevant, some not, but we choose to use the term "servant", rather than sub or slave. There is a very good reason for this, which applies to your situation, anthrosub. I truly believe that the whole idea of a differentiation between "sub" and "slave" is a moot point. What -is- essential is the level of yielding and the embracing of service that one individual gives in relation to his or her own relationship. Each individual who comes to our household is given the opportunity to yield as fully as he or she is capable of. There is no differentiation in our household for the person who comes in and says he or she wishes to be "enslaved" and the one who comes in and says that he or she would -never- be a slave -- we don't have either here. We have individuals who submit to us, to the full extent that they are able. Some submit a great deal -- near everything of themselves besides their breath. Others are slower to yield, or choose to hold on to one thing or another. Some yield for long periods. Some find after a short time that this isn't what they thought they wanted, and they move on to something else.

I liked your three stages. We also tend to see three stages for our servants.

In the first stage (the novitiate stage), the servant gets a taste of what life will be like among us. Xhe also gets a feel for the process of submitting/yielding, and comes to understand the basic structure of our household and the rules by which we live. As this stage progresses, the servant is encouraged to yield up more and more of hirself. This is also the stage where those servants who are not cut out for a life of yielding, or those who did not understand the magnitude of the submission process and found themselves unhappy once they truly began to submit will choose to depart or will be sent on.

As the second stage begins, the servant has yielded as fully as xhe is likely to, and we assess where the individual fits within our enclave. Xhe is offered the opportunity to express hir own dreams through our household. Xhe is encouraged to develop skills to increase hir value to hirself and among us -- some of those skills may be decorative and specific to domestic servitude, others may be expansive (like going to college or working in an outside career) and further the individual and household in broader ways that will translate to a strong life in or out of our enclave. Some of our servants actually stop here after a while. They learn what they came to learn, and choose to either explore a different situation (perhaps they've waited for an opportunity to serve one individual, or perhaps they've decided that they want to learn to lead rather than be led, or for whatever reason. We cherish these servants, and help them in whatever way we are able to make the transition to their next road.

In the third stage, those servants who have gone through the fires and stay with us, and who chose to make our enclave their life's work become much like the cloistered monks whom I trained under. For those few who fit well and become enmeshed in our lives, they become "family". They put the needs of the enclave first, become examples for the newcomers and guiding lights for the servants moving on to new things. They add to our ability to take care of one another, and share in the intimate decisions of our household. To yield to the good of the household is in their nature, now, and those of us in leadership positions cherish these servants with all our hearts. Our household has been blessed by three of these incredible people in the past decade, and no matter what occurs in our lives, they will -always- be a part of who and what we are. Just because they choose to express that through yielding rather than leading takes nothing from how precious we are to one another.

Anthrosub, to my mind, it seems that you are looking for a place to yield fully. Don't worry about what you -call- yourself. The biggest thing you need to draw into your life is the person whom you can feel right in yielding yourself to. Take your time, and let the process be organic. Strive each day to yield what feels right, and a little beyond that, and see how what you yield is embraced by your counterpart. So far, it sounds to me like you understand this, and have a glimpse of what this could be in your life. I think you will do well on this journey.

ZWD




anthrosub -> RE: Meaning of "submit" -- One Lady's missive (7/4/2006 1:07:23 PM)

Thank you for your words of encouragement and further describing your own context.  I think the description of how you and yours operate in the day to day is exceptional and quite healthy.  I especially like the focus on how "servants" are given the opportunity to find themselves and even engage in efforts at self-improvement.  This is a win-win situation for all and only serves to better everyone's experience of life.  To me, this is what living the lifestyle is all about.
 
anthrosub



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