Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (Full Version)

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slavejali -> Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/2/2006 11:49:11 PM)

This has probably been done to death but hey...maybe a new angle? You have to kinda put all this points together, couldnt work out any other way to write it.

First point:
Sometimes different threads are contradictory. If someone posts something about some shit happening, its *both* peoples responsibility, the dominant and the submissive,,,but when all is flowing well..the Dom has the control of the relationship...it is the submissives/slaves job to submit.

Second Point:
Some threads talk about how the slave/submissive is totally owned by the dominant, heart, mind and soul, they talk about surrender and all the amazing feelings associated with that.....but when the submissive is feeling bad, they should take responsibility for that,....its like the Master is only responsible when all is going good.

Third Point:
If submission is *actualised*, it actually means to "submit". Slavery is nothing else but an act of submission realistically. It is a conscious surrendering to another individual. So, say the submissive submits their emotions....what part of them is available still to pull those back and maintain control of them and take responsibility for them? Isn't the dominant in control of them at that point? Or is it just a word we use, a game we are playing and there is no real control to be had? If submission is actually a real thing, who actually is responsible for the submissives/slaves feelings given the dynamic of the relationship?

Fourth Point:

I'm not talking about bedroom fun and games...but in an actual relationship where the submissive and dominant dynamic is playing out....what is happening and who is responsible for what...and who is *capable* at what stage of being responsible for what?

Fifth Point:

I'm not talking about two unbalanced individuals, lets say all this is happening in a relationship with two people who have their shit together. Is personal responsibility given up in the act of submission itself?


Do you get what I'm playing with here?

Your comments please [:)]




BitaTruble -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 12:10:55 AM)

Feelings and emotions just 'are'.. and I don't see how anyone can give those over. I know when someone I love dies, I can't help but feel sad. When one of the ankle biters is being a goof, I can't help but laugh. I think emotions own us .. we don't own them, only the reactions we have to them. If I'm sad I can dwell on it, be miserable.. or I can take steps to leaving it behind and move on to something so that I'm not sad anymore .. that often takes time. If I don't 'own' the emotion, how can I have it taken from me or give it to someone else?

Ultimately, Himself can't 'make' me happy.  I am happy when in service to Himself .. being owned by him, loving him and all those things which go along with that and he allows me the opportunity to maximize my happiness by letting me be around him.

I hope I don't 'make' him happy either. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone. What am I supposed to do if he's not around anymore? Be miserable for the rest of my life?

Not this girl.. there's too much to live for .. and I have no wish to die before I die.


As far as personal responsibility, submission does not negate such in my viewpoint. I submit my 'power' and authority to him .. because he has earned the right and had the ability to take such from me. He is Master, not God. I am his slave, not his robot. I trust him to do what's right and not to put me in a position where I'm going to have to be personally responsible for wronging someone else.


Celeste




Caretakr -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 12:12:49 AM)

This is my experience, and why I find this to be attractive.

When one begins to seek a match in an M/s dynamic,extreme degrees of caution and transparency are needful. Because this is not just a sex game to be played out-you are going to be assimilating another individual into your very life...And your mutual happiness,fullfillment, and health are going to very much depend on what you cleave to.

To choose wisely increases all of these-you become more than the sum of two. If one chooses poorly-then one is decreased by more than the sum of two-into negative territory. And the hole is no happy place in which to dwell. As far as responsibility goes, you owe it to your child, the connection. By seeking to always mutually honor that bretheren-you can never go wrong.

You feel this in your gut-not just your head. And feeling right or wrong-you just know-and correct your course. It's that simple-and that complex. The child will never stop growng and changing.




Taylore -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 12:17:10 AM)

quote:

First point:
Sometimes different threads are contradictory. If someone posts something about some shit happening, its *both* peoples responsibility, the dominant and the submissive,,,but when all is flowing well..the Dom has the control of the relationship...it is the submissives/slaves job to submit.

Both Master and I take responsibility for our relationship; when it's going good, and when it is not. If something is not going right, it is OUR job to sit down, discuss what is wrong, ways to improve or fix, and then to implement the changes that must be made. Now, granted, if I am upset about something, and do NOT tell Master about it, then it's all my fault that things are bad. I have a voice, I know how to use it, and what's more, Master encourages me to do so. This slave would say that the same holds true for Master.
On the subject of 'it is the submissve's/slave's job to submit', I have to disagree to a point. It is not a JOB to me. Saying such a thing sounds as if I am forcing myself to do such a thing. I understand the concept of what you are saying, I just think that you could have worded it better. Only my opinion though.
quote:

  Second Point:
Some threads talk about how the slave/submissive is totally owned by the dominant, heart, mind and soul, they talk about surrender and all the amazing feelings associated with that.....but when the submissive is feeling bad, they should take responsibility for that,....its like the Master is only responsible when all is going good.


Master does own me. However, my heart is my own and does not enter into it. I serve him because I respect and like him, not because my heart said it was ok.
If things are not going good in our relationship ( I am feeling bad about something or vice versa ), then it is my responsibility to tell Master. If I fail to say anything to him, then yes, IT IS MY FAULT.
quote:

Third Point:
If submission is *actualised*, it actually means to "submit". Slavery is nothing else but an act of submission realistically. It is a conscious surrendering to another individual. So, say the submissive submits their emotions....what part of them is available still to pull those back and maintain control of them and take responsibility for them? Isn't the dominant in control of them at that point? Or is it just a word we use, a game we are playing and there is no real control to be had? If submission is actually a real thing, who actually is responsible for the submissives/slaves feelings given the dynamic of the relationship? 


This slave would presume that by using the word 'emotions' you are referring to love? If that is the case, this question would really not apply to me.
quote:

  Fourth Point:

I'm not talking about bedroom fun and games...but in an actual relationship where the submissive and dominant dynamic is playing out....what is happening and who is responsible for what...and who is *capable* at what stage of being responsible for what?


The same answer applies here. We are both responsible. It takes two to make a relationship work in any way, both parties ( or more in some cases ) MUST take responsibility for their own actions and words.
quote:

  Fifth Point:

I'm not talking about two unbalanced individuals, lets say all this is happening in a relationship with two people who have their shit together. Is personal responsibility given up in the act of submission itself?


Absolutly not. Just because this slave follows the orders and wishes of Master, does not absolve me of the consequenses of such actions.




Wolfie648 -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 12:24:45 AM)

quote:

put all this points together,

First point:
Sometimes different threads are contradictory. {etc.}


Welcome to the human condition. Some people believe some things; some people believe others (that the others don't if you take my meaning ;-) We (generic) won't find out until we (generic) die (assuming of course we (generic) believe in existence after biology has failed.

quote:


Second Point:
Some threads talk about how the slave/submissive is totally owned by the dominant, heart, mind and soul, they talk about surrender and all the amazing feelings associated with that.....but when the submissive is feeling bad, they should take responsibility for that,....its like the Master is only responsible when all is going good.


See response to point 1.

quote:

Third Point:
If submission is *actualised*, it actually means to "submit".


That's what the dictionary says.

quote:

Slavery is nothing else but an act of submission realistically.


Mmm. Slavery and submit are 2 different words (in the dictionary). 2 seperate entries and 2 different meanings. At least to me ;-) See response to point 1.

quote:

 It is a conscious surrendering to another individual.


If you say so. See response to point 1.

quote:

So, say the submissive submits their emotions....what part of them is available still to pull those back and maintain control of them and take responsibility for them? Isn't the dominant in control of them at that point? Or is it just a word we use, a game we are playing and there is no real control to be had? If submission is actually a real thing, who actually is responsible for the submissives/slaves feelings given the dynamic of the relationship?


Your relationship(s) is(are, etc.) what you and your partner make of them. Asking 50,000 people....well need I finish that thought?

quote:

Fourth Point:

I'm not talking about bedroom fun and games...but in an actual relationship where the submissive and dominant dynamic is playing out....what is happening and who is responsible for what...and who is *capable* at what stage of being responsible for what?


See response to 'point 4' 

quote:

Fifth Point:

I'm not talking about two unbalanced individuals, lets say all this is happening in a relationship with two people who have their shit together. Is personal responsibility given up in the act of submission itself?


See response to point 4.

quote:


Do you get what I'm playing with here?


Not a clue. You?

D (owner of j).







ownedgirlie -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 12:32:17 AM)

Dang, you're going to exercise my brain late at night :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
First point:
Sometimes different threads are contradictory. If someone posts something about some shit happening, its *both* peoples responsibility, the dominant and the submissive,,,but when all is flowing well..the Dom has the control of the relationship...it is the submissives/slaves job to submit.

When something goes wrong, we both look at our parts in it.  Naturally if I screw up, I take responsibility for that screw up and I suffer the consequences.  Master also takes responsibility, in that he will dissect my mind to understand what went wrong, why, and how to prevent it in the future.  Typically when things go wrong for us, there are deep seated issues which have instigated it.  He manages the situation by doing what he needs to, to learn what those issues are.
quote:


Second Point:
Some threads talk about how the slave/submissive is totally owned by the dominant, heart, mind and soul, they talk about surrender and all the amazing feelings associated with that.....but when the submissive is feeling bad, they should take responsibility for that,....its like the Master is only responsible when all is going good.

First I must say Master owns all but my soul, in that neither of us believe souls can be owned.  He has touched my soul, however, and has affected it.  In my case, Master owns my thoughts and emotions.  I report all to him, and he guides me such to influence my thoughts and how I am affected by those thoughts. I am responsible for the actions I take, and I am responsible for telling him all.  He manages me based on what he learns of me as a result.  When I am feeling badly, he digs into my mind to figure out why.  Sometimes he might help me out of it.  Sometimes he will tell me, "Feel bad if you choose to."  It is dependent on the situation.  He tells me what I need to know and do, but it is my responsibility to execute it.

quote:


Third Point:
If submission is *actualised*, it actually means to "submit". Slavery is nothing else but an act of submission realistically. It is a conscious surrendering to another individual. So, say the submissive submits their emotions....what part of them is available still to pull those back and maintain control of them and take responsibility for them? Isn't the dominant in control of them at that point? Or is it just a word we use, a game we are playing and there is no real control to be had? If submission is actually a real thing, who actually is responsible for the submissives/slaves feelings given the dynamic of the relationship?

I am unable to pull or hold anything back from him.  Period.  I can take responsibility for how I feel, but he will always know what that is, and if he feels I am off course, he will set me back on the right path.  So, in a way, we are both responsible for how I feel. 

quote:


Fourth Point:

I'm not talking about bedroom fun and games...but in an actual relationship where the submissive and dominant dynamic is playing out....what is happening and who is responsible for what...and who is *capable* at what stage of being responsible for what?

He decides this.  He has made it clear, however, that I have a responsibility to take care of his property.  I also have a responsibility to do what is expected of me, in all things. He is responsible for the way he manages me. I am responsible for obeying.  There might be several reasons to attribute disobedience to, however.  As mentioned above, we both look at it and figure it out.  What I learn of myself, I report to him, and he decides where to go from there.

quote:


Fifth Point:

I'm not talking about two unbalanced individuals, lets say all this is happening in a relationship with two people who have their shit together. Is personal responsibility given up in the act of submission itself?

No because part of my submission means obeying his rules of the things I must be responsible for.

Interesting questions, Jali!




slavejali -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 12:44:12 AM)

quote:

Feelings and emotions just 'are'.. and I don't see how anyone can give those over. I know when someone I love dies, I can't help but feel sad. When one of the ankle biters is being a goof, I can't help but laugh. I think emotions own us .. we don't own them, only the reactions we have to them.


ok bare with me here but that was kinda the point I was making. By puting yourself in the position of being influenced by the actions of another and to use your examples i.e when you love someone, when they are gone, you feel a sense of loss and sadness. It was because of your relationship that you feel that. The relationship itself provoked it If there was no relationship, you wouldnt feel loss or sad. So put that into a D/s dynamic, and we have two people who are taking up different positions consciously. One is dominating, one is submitting. Are the product of emotions beyond the realm of control of the dominant. I'm not talking about the emotion itself, they arise naturally through attachment of any kind..but when they are there..when they have arisen... is it the dominants job, responsibility to deal with them, even if thats just to say " go sort yourself out". Or is it the submissives responsibility to realise their emotions have control of them and do something about it, which for me would mean to step out of my submission and gain control of myself for example. Who should have the control and responsibility there? Who is capable of it when we are talking about domination and submission?

Just used Celestes quote there as it was the first response, but anyone can reply to what I just said.




Caretakr -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 1:20:31 AM)

It would be for the Master to see your emotions from an outside preception-and how he relates to them. Then feed this back to you. You then strive to make an adjustment to these, trying on the fit- return that to him.

Eventually, you have adjusted enough that they find harmony with him. It's adjusting the energy wavelengths until they heterodyne.




BitaTruble -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 1:35:12 AM)

quote:

Or is it the submissives responsibility to realise their emotions have control of them and do something about it, which for me would mean to step out of my submission and gain control of myself for example. Who should have the control and responsibility there?


Since I'm going through menopause, this is the perfect time to answer this question. ::chuckles::

Lately I've been going through some major hormonal issues.. crying, mood swings .. the works. So far, they haven't manifested in really negative emotions like anger.. mostly it's just sadness. If Himself were to tell me to 'get it together'.. you know what.. I can't! I can't control it.. He can't control it. It passes when it passes.

Now, that said, he's had me do a lot of research on line to find out if there are some things besides HRT which will help me and I've found a few things which may alleviate some of those symptons. Bottom line though .. he has directed me to try to get some help for me. If he hadn't done that.. or if I was on my own.. I'd have done it anyway.

So .. Who's in control? Right now I'd say Mother Nature, but Himself has a battle plan to combat things and try to make them better .. for both of us.

Sometimes when I say.. "I feel.. ________ (insert emotion).." he'll say something like.. "Well, you shouldn't feel that way."

I'm only human though and sometimes I can't help it. I don't necessarily want to feel the emotion which I'm feeling.. but I feel it anyway. When he's sick, I worry. He tells me not to worry. I still worry. I can't help it.

Worry is unproductive, it does no good. Logically, I realize this.. and yet, damn it.. I still worry.

I plod along, do the best I can with what I've got to work with and I trust that what's meant to happen is exactly what happens and then take it from there.

What else can ya do?

Celeste





LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 6:29:08 AM)

Done before, but worth doing again.

I think Kyra's thread on this was a productive one.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_196066/mpage_1/key_responsibility/tm.htm#196066
Responsibility to Self

Reposted:
It is an interesting paradox I find between everyone clamoring how they are NOT a doormat! and are in fact a strong woman...and yet wanting to not be responsible or worry about anything when it comes to their personal relationship.




catize -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 6:50:33 AM)

quote:

 Sometimes different threads are contradictory. If someone posts something about some shit happening, its *both* peoples responsibility, the dominant and the submissive,,,but when all is flowing well..the Dom has the control of the relationship...it is the submissives/slaves job to submit. 


The way I view it is that the dominant has the authority/control in the relationship, but the submissive/slave has responsibilty to respond appropriately to that control; both people need to do their part of the job to make it work.

quote:

  Some threads talk about how the slave/submissive is totally owned by the dominant, heart, mind and soul, they talk about surrender and all the amazing feelings associated with that.....but when the submissive is feeling bad, they should take responsibility for that,....its like the Master is only responsible when all is going good.


Feelings are facts; there is no right or wrong about them.  What I believe is important is to express those feelings so they can be discussed and dealt with. 
As far as a dominant owning someone's mind, I don't think that is possible.  A dominant controlling the submissive's thoughts cannot be done.  Hell, I can't even control my own thoughts sometimes!  What a dominant can do is use the authority he/she has to determine what thoughts can be expressed and how to express them.  An example of this:  I'm doing the dishes and Master calls from another room to come help him with something.  Bad slave thought pops unbidden in my brain........'this couldn't wait five effin' minutes?'  I know the consequences of speaking so disrespectfully, so I have choices.  Sigh and keep silent, or after ward, explain how I feel frustrated when faced with two tasks at one time. 

quote:

  I'm not talking about two unbalanced individuals, lets say all this is happening in a relationship with two people who have their shit together. Is personal responsibility given up in the act of submission itself?

Submission/slavery does not abdicate any individual's responsibilities.  I strongly believe that everyone should own the consequences of their behaviors, for good or ill. 




LadiesBladewing -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 10:43:26 AM)

I think I see where you are going, and the only way that I can explain how I feel about this is through allegory.

My exposure to dominance and submission came through a back-door, so to speak. I was trained in a monastary, where we learned the process of yielding to the Universe. Now, the Universe is a big thing, and pretty intangible to most people. For those of us who went through these disciplines, though, it -wasn't- an illusion. We accepted a responsibility -- a burden to bear. Each day, we would wake, and we would approach our day from the perspective that every thing that we encountered, ever person that we interacted with, and every act that we undertook was a reflection of our yielding to our dharma -- our life's calling.

It is not a passive undertaking, where one says, "here--take my life -- I'm not going to do anything now, unless you make me do it."

Instead, it is an active process, where one says "Here... I accept that these things are occurring in my life through the turning of the Universe and for the good of all, therefore, I will be active and diligent in doing the things that will further me on this path, because I accept that the reason that I have been given this body, this mind, and this calling are to increase the well-being of the Universe."

This is how I view submission. Yes, one yields to leadership and guidance -- but it is an active process, where one does not -wait- to be hand-held up the stairs of what must be done, but, instead, -offers-... takes initiative in offering yet more... instead of waiting to be asked for something, gives that thing willingly, before it is asked of hir, because in hir own mind, heart, and spirit, xhe is submitting to this -- it is not being -taken- from hir, but given as an offering, to be accepted or returned at the receiver's discretion.

For our household, our new servants are asked to yield up -everything- by the time they are at the end of their novitiate period, including their emotions, at least by expressing honestly what they are experiencing. At the same time, for our senior servants, much of what they once yielded has been returned to their oversight, with the Guides' oversight acting as a second skin over their own. As long as they are doing what they are supposed to, the weight of our ownership is near-weightless. It is only when they stumble and we must lift them up, or when they renege and we must apply immediate and intense pressure that the balance of power is felt in its most dense manifestation.

Every servant will have at least one or two encounters with the weight of our dominance over them. If we have chosen wisely, they will rarely have more than that. If we have chosen poorly, the demands of having to stand upon a servant who has not fully submitted his or her life is often a losing proposition anyway, and these servants rarely remain with us, either by their own choice, or by our command when they are found unsuitable. In terms of the emotional state, while it is our responsibility to both monitor and guide our servants in their emotional progress, if they have submitted, they have already acknowledged that the emotion exists, and that it is neither right, nor wrong, but a part of the package they have submitted. We work on it together, with the individual putting the majority into the process, as emotion and its internal perception are an internal process -- but being completely forthright. However, an emotional servant who is unwilling to do any of the work of healing and managing his or her emotional crises will end up in the category of servants who are a poor fit for our household, not because of the emotion, but because of the unwillingness to do his or her part to resolve the issue and refrain from damaging the others with whom xhe must share space.


Hope this answers your question -- if not, sorry for the long response.

ZWD




Raindrops -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 1:13:15 PM)

i do not know the answer. i get the points. Good question.

people speak of responsibility, both responsible

ideals of total slavery. mind, body, possessions.
to give all obey totally

seen here by lurking, if a sub/sl makes a mistake many answer oh well newbie should have known better tsk tsk  

who IS in control? responsible if someone dominates and other obeys and the D is wrong in any case   WHO?

i don't know, but thank you. 




TxBadMan -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 1:27:32 PM)

quote:

First point:
Sometimes different threads are contradictory. If someone posts something about some shit happening, its *both* peoples responsibility, the dominant and the submissive,,,but when all is flowing well..the Dom has the control of the relationship...it is the submissives/slaves job to submit.

I disagree. Even when all is flowing well, all parties have the control, which is how it should be. I do not dictate when, if, and how my girls can be happy, or sad for that matter. These are emotions that no one can actually control, except for how we relate them to our partners.
quote:

  Second Point:
Some threads talk about how the slave/submissive is totally owned by the dominant, heart, mind and soul, they talk about surrender and all the amazing feelings associated with that.....but when the submissive is feeling bad, they should take responsibility for that,....its like the Master is only responsible when all is going good.


I do not own my girls mind, body or soul. They are only on loan to me; and only for as long as I take care and protect them.
quote:

  Third Point:
If submission is *actualised*, it actually means to "submit". Slavery is nothing else but an act of submission realistically. It is a conscious surrendering to another individual. So, say the submissive submits their emotions....what part of them is available still to pull those back and maintain control of them and take responsibility for them? Isn't the dominant in control of them at that point? Or is it just a word we use, a game we are playing and there is no real control to be had? If submission is actually a real thing, who actually is responsible for the submissives/slaves feelings given the dynamic of the relationship?



Once again, just because my girls gave themselves to me in slavery, I still am only borrowing. This may go against the concept of a Master/slave dynamic, but I do not believe that one person can ever totally own and control anothers emotions, mind, body, and soul.
As for who is responsible for my girls emotions. We all are. She may just be having a bad day; or she may be reacting to something I said or did. Either way, she is responsible for letting it take control of her; and I am responsible for putting her in that situation ( if it applies to something that I did or said ).
quote:

  Fourth Point:

I'm not talking about bedroom fun and games...but in an actual relationship where the submissive and dominant dynamic is playing out....what is happening and who is responsible for what...and who is *capable* at what stage of being responsible for what

Same answer applies here as above.
quote:

Fifth Point:

I'm not talking about two unbalanced individuals, lets say all this is happening in a relationship with two people who have their shit together. Is personal responsibility given up in the act of submission itself? 

Of course not. At the end of the day, each person must still sleep with the knowledge of what they have done or not done. The day any of my girls tell me that it is my fault that they 'did' something , is the day I sit them down and explain to them what 'ADULT behavior and responsibilities' actually mean.

There was a comment made by Ownedgirlie? about jumping off a bridge because her Master told her to. Her logic is that there must be something pretty horrible on the bridge to cause him to have her do that. Who is responsible though if, when hitting the water, she lands on a rock and injurs herself? Both are. He told her to jump, she did. 




Caretakr -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 1:29:25 PM)

LadiesBladewing wrote:

quote:

However, an emotional servant who is unwilling to do any of the work of healing and managing his or her emotional crises will end up in the category of servants who are a poor fit for our household, not because of the emotion, but because of the unwillingness to do his or her part to resolve the issue and refrain from damaging the others with whom xhe must share space.


This is the one that I stress the most, from the very beginning-emotional accountability. And it has been the single most common function that lead to my releasing girls in the past.

Thier stubborness in refusing to deal with emotional  issues that I had nothing to do with-past baggage that they refused to let go of.

This is beyond the overt control of a Master, and if they will not do the work-they are asking to be shown the door. Bringing nothing more to a household than drama and disharmony is no service-it is a curse.




thetammyjo -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 2:08:58 PM)

I think all human interactions and relationships involve mutual responsibility. We each affect each other in a variety of ways but we are not the only factor in our lives -- the past, environment, beliefs, finances, etc, affect us as well. I do not see a difference in relationships in terms of what I consider to be a fact of human interactions. (heck even non-humans affect us when we interact with them)

We can decide we don't care and ignore how our actions and behavior and words affect others but not caring is not the same as us not having an affect.

I believe that relationships and interactions work best when everyone realizes their mutual responsibility and the limits to it.

Again I see no difference in this basic level of mutual responsibility. Our BDSM roles and relationship authority or power dynamics are just a way that we recognize this responsibility.




agirl -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 2:53:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

This has probably been done to death but hey...maybe a new angle? You have to kinda put all this points together, couldnt work out any other way to write it.

First point:
Sometimes different threads are contradictory. If someone posts something about some shit happening, its *both* peoples responsibility, the dominant and the submissive,,,but when all is flowing well..the Dom has the control of the relationship...it is the submissives/slaves job to submit.

Second Point:
Some threads talk about how the slave/submissive is totally owned by the dominant, heart, mind and soul, they talk about surrender and all the amazing feelings associated with that.....but when the submissive is feeling bad, they should take responsibility for that,....its like the Master is only responsible when all is going good.

Third Point:
If submission is *actualised*, it actually means to "submit". Slavery is nothing else but an act of submission realistically. It is a conscious surrendering to another individual. So, say the submissive submits their emotions....what part of them is available still to pull those back and maintain control of them and take responsibility for them? Isn't the dominant in control of them at that point? Or is it just a word we use, a game we are playing and there is no real control to be had? If submission is actually a real thing, who actually is responsible for the submissives/slaves feelings given the dynamic of the relationship?

Fourth Point:

I'm not talking about bedroom fun and games...but in an actual relationship where the submissive and dominant dynamic is playing out....what is happening and who is responsible for what...and who is *capable* at what stage of being responsible for what?

Fifth Point:

I'm not talking about two unbalanced individuals, lets say all this is happening in a relationship with two people who have their shit together. Is personal responsibility given up in the act of submission itself?


Do you get what I'm playing with here?

Your comments please [:)]


Hello slavejali,

My emotions are mine, they aren't subject to *submission* .....I don't expect my Master to be responsible for them. He would and does advise me how I might best respond or tackle difficult ones and (hopefully) enjoys the nice ones. I can't be *owned* in the way that is often expressed *heart, soul and mind*. All I can do is try to live up to the *role* that I agreed to live by.

Regards, agirl




kyraofMists -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 3:21:03 PM)

~fast reply

As a slave in my relationship, I do not abdicate my personal responsibility or my responsibility to our relationship.  Just because he has the authority in the relationship does not mean that my well-being or the well-being of the relationship rests solely on his shoulders.  We are all three active partners in making this relationship successful.

Something that I have learned in this last year with my Lord, submission is not just reactionary and obedience to orders given.  It is an active process of serving and submitting in ways that I know please him.  With my Lord, there is a positive feedback effect, in that the more active I am in my submission the more likely he is to exercise his authority.  The opposite of that is that, if I am not actively submitting and serving him, then he is less likely to exercise his authority.

On a final note, I do not submit my emotions to him.  In my opinion, that can lead to a very unhealthy relationship.  When I was a child my emotions were at the whim of a parent.  It was the worst feeling in the world to sit at home and wonder “how am I going to feel tonight” because it all hinged on what kind of day they had.  As an adult I regained control of my emotions and I do not allow someone else to dictate how I should feel.  He doesn't want control of them either.  We are all three responsible for our own emotions and for communicating them effectively to each other.

Knight's kyra




slavejali -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 3:23:26 PM)

With this topic: I havent expressed my opinion, or thoughts around it yet. The topic came up from reading about that woman who is being charged with assaulting her son because her Dom told her to. Now in that situation, my initial thought was, that woman shouldnt have even been in a Master/salve relationship, she was not mentally fit enough. ..

so then I played with that idea a bit, extended it...

I thought about what it means for a healthy, mature person to submit...I thought about a person who had chosen a dominant because they were a healthy, mature individual too...then I thought again about what it actually means to submit to the authority of another. Is the submission total, or is it conditioned?

Is it just our body that submits? As in, "Go get a coffee" "Yes Master" and off I trot to go get the coffee. ...or does our mind and emotions submit to the authority of our owner? I'm not saying here, that the submissive becomes a robot and only feels or thinks what their owner imposes on them..but that the submission of mind and emotions in this case would mean that the owners words and deeds become like the center of the submissives world and the submissive is vastly effected by them.

By the very act of submission we become vulnerable to our owners, they can effect us greatly, much more so than if we did not submit. People talk about "subspace" where the submissive become incoherant etc, you would assume that the dominant is responsible for the submissive in those times, how can the submissive remain responsible? Don't know about you but I've been in spaces where I lose total contact with any form of reasoning capability, let alone anything else....

To extend that.....when a dominant and submissive are in a day to day relationship..to put it into less than adequate words...there is a subtle subspace there all the time. The desire to please, the desire to submit, the desire to obey is the undercurrent of a submissives mind and plays with their emotions.

The submissive has chosen to live a life like this through particiapting in a D/s M/s relationship..and with that undercurrent going on in day to day life, day in and day out..when someone as allowed themselves to become vulnerable enough to let these desires rise to the surface and commit themselves to a role within the relationship...I'm asking..how can they be wholly responsible for themselves?

Extra: I still havent stated my opinion on this...but its just a very interesting topic.




kyraofMists -> RE: Slavery/submission and personal responsibility (7/3/2006 3:23:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Done before, but worth doing again.

I think Kyra's thread on this was a productive one.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_196066/mpage_1/key_responsibility/tm.htm#196066
Responsibility to Self


I don't know about others, but I always get this little thrill when I see you (or anyone) post a link to a thread/post I have done.  It is like this little unexpected pat on the back.

Thank you.

Kyra




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