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submissives and self-injury - 7/2/2006 9:52:38 PM   
gardenbluebird


Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline 		Another thread reminded me that i wanted to post on this topic.  I used to self-injure, not cutting but I had other methods.  It was my coping mechanism for some pretty difficult issues that I had to work through.  After a great deal of throught and reflection I came to the conclusion that my self-injury had the same roots in my psyche as does my submissive/masocistic nature. 

I stopped self-injuring about 7 years ago and I am rarely tempted to do so now.  I am very careful that I never use a dominant for that "fix."  That doesn't seem fair to him, nor healthy for me.   I scene for fun, not as a coping mechanism.

Is self-injury and submission a common combination?  And how do others who have a history of self-injury insure that bdsm doesn't become unhealthy?
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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/2/2006 9:58:39 PM   
enigmabrat


Posts: 2383
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		I used to cut myself...... A lot never deep in fact I dont even really have meny scars... I havent cut in a long time years now i think sometimes i want to but I fight the urge because my cutting didnt only hurt me but others Iv also been told by a Dom friend if i were to ever do it again there would be no relationship between us. I dont know if its so common among sub/masachist as right now cutting seems to be a fad among younger members of the world seen as the thing to do or as a way to get attention.

I dont know but there are my 2 sents worth

-da enigma-

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/2/2006 10:07:47 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		When I first became invovled in s&m, it worried me, because I thought I might be replacing one unhealthy impulse (self injury) with another one. I came to the opposite conclution as the OP though. Namely that while there might be similar roots, my masochism was a part of my sexual nature, and my self injury was a result of both messed up brain chemistry and disfunctional family dynamics.

I still self injure, though not very often, thank heavens. To me, it's -nothing- like s&m play. The sensations are sometimes similar, but the reactions in my body are totally different. The only similarity is that they both are cathartic in their own way. Still, the catharsis comes from a totally different place. So I feel safe in saying that even s&m activities that mimic my self injury (cutting) don't create the same response.

Who knows. It feels good for me, though, because I'm able to enjoy  my masochism without guilt.


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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/3/2006 6:25:55 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gardenbluebird
Is self-injury and submission a common combination?  And how do others who have a history of self-injury insure that bdsm doesn't become unhealthy?

Part of a common people pleasing perfectionists rubric is to internalize stress and anxiety, which has to come out in some way.  Since these people rarely feel comfortable directly calling attention to themselves or letting out stress in healthy ways, we/they develop often complex patterns of other ways to handle things.

While I never developed things to the strength of cutting or severe bodily injury like bulimia (which IMO is really a disease of control/anxiety/perfection and has much less to do with actual food), I am a compulsive picker. 

But it's nothing inherent in submission.  There are many subs who don't have anxiety disorders, or compulsive habits, who don't have that streak of perfectionism.  As well- there are many doms who DO have all of that as well.

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/3/2006 6:38:03 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Assuming I either have aslave who does self injure or am responsible (ie mentoring) one who does.. We go into a counselling situation to try to work through this. If needs be I do have other professional counsellors who I can call on if it is necessary.... Basic in this is that I have assumed responsibility for her and thus I am both duty and honour bound to do all I can to help her.. 

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/3/2006 7:47:24 AM   
Tashacurly


Posts: 33
Joined: 6/15/2006
Status: offline 		This is interesting topic, seeing how I assume many people cannot or will not see the difference between self-harm/injury and BDSM. To be honest, I have/do still self harm....in ways ranging from Eating disorders (ednos and Bulimia), to cutting/burning/hair pulling/and compulsive picking. These things I know for a fact come directly from my sexual/emotional abusive past...and some control issues. However, the self-injury and the BDSM are two different things to me, they do not feel the same. I do not feel good after the self-harm, I feel awful, disgusting and depressed. Not so with BDSM play. Not so with my being submissive and being a slave to my Lord and Master. I feel empowered during that time, and in general just serving...there are no "bad" feelings there. To me, that is a big difference.
I think I would have been a submissive regardless of an abusive past...and believe that it is just part of who I am, and was born as such. IMO

Tasha

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/3/2006 6:29:30 PM   
fyrekittyn


Posts: 282
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: Memphis, TN
Status: offline 		I don't consider my self injury and my BDSM tendancies to be related. I used to self injure quite a bit, and still have faint scars on my arms and legs. Thankfully, medication and therapy have helped with that. (I am bipolar.) That hasn't changed anything about being a masochist. I still enjoy getting beaten on, and it feels totally different to me than the release I used to feel when I cut myself.

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~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~
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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 6:28:15 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		This is a mindset that I doubt I will ever really comprehend.  While I've been known to do a bit of self flogging for an SM Pain Fix - the idea of wanting to Harm myself is simply incomprehensible to me.  On a purely logical level, I can semi understand the possible mindset (especially in light of the explanation offered by LA - and personally, I agree with you that disease complexes like Bolemia and Anorexia are about Control rather than Food.)  On an emotional/personal level though - I guess I just don't "get it."  This is not meant to be taken as a slam or rude in any way - but - things like cutting and other intentional self HARM (of the "not because I'm a masocist and simply enjoy pain" variety) comes across to me as the same sort of cop-out from life that suicide is.
 
If it's not overly personal to those of you who've said that you do (or at one time did) such activities - what sort of internal rationalization goes on?  What emotional/situational conditions bring it all about?

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 6:42:15 AM   
zumala


Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline 		I don't have experience with pain in a S&M type of setting, but I'm pretty sure that it is not related to self-injury.  I hear people speak of S&M in a positive light.
 
Self-injury, at least as I understand it, truly is self-harm.  There is nothing good about it.  I never cut myself or burned myself, but I did do other more minor things.  These things were done because I had bottled up anger and self-loathing inside until they MUST be released.  I directed it toward myself instead of toward others.  For me, it was a result of self-dislike and anger, also depression. 
 
It goes like this: You punish youself for being (or at least perceiving yourself to be) worthless.  You deserve the pain.  So take it, bitch.
 
 In my case, my fingernails are quite sturdy and often long.  I'd claw my forearms repeatedly.  Not to draw blood, but to leave many deep grooves.  I also hit myself in the head with large hard-backed books (think college biology book) a lot.  Once I kicked a hole though a wall.  I got in trouble for that one, because it was in my room while I was still living at home.
 
I still don't like my looks or the fact that I'm not 'normal' and able to work customer service jobs like everyone else.  However, the deep-seated anger isn't present and depression hasn't been enough to move me to self-injury for years.  Being married to pup has curbed that behavior, I suppose.
 
Interesting topic.  Hopefully I didn't ramble too much.
 
zuma

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 6:43:44 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
If it's not overly personal to those of you who've said that you do (or at one time did) such activities - what sort of internal rationalization goes on?  What emotional/situational conditions bring it all about?


I used to self-injure. I was sexually molested from as early as I can remember until late into my teens. Then I married an emotionally/financially/mentally abusive man. (Talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire!!)

Self-injury often comes from having immense feelings of internal pain that have no outlet. Talking about my stepgrandfather inappropriately touching me was forbidden. I had no place for my emotional pain and, eventually, huge rage to be vented, so I self-injured to allow the pain to escape.

After I was married, the same thing happened so my self-injury continued. It wasn't an every day event, just whenever things go so overwhelming that I didn't know how to deal with them. When one honestly tells their spouse, who is supposed to love and care about them, that they are being hurt by the spouse's behavior and all it draws is more abuse and that certain smile, there's no hope. Especially when one has promised not to ever leave. Especially when one has been taught that divorce is the ultimate sin. There's no hope in that kind of situation.

I finally did leave my husband. It will be 3 years of freedom tomorrow. Since leaving him I have only had one instance where the *thought* of self-injury crossed my mind. Just a thought of it in 3 years is a record! I have ways to cope with my issues now and I use them. I don't allow myself to be in abusive relationships anymore.

I will participate in S&M play sessions with people I trust. I have even been willing to be part of a knife scene, as long as my head is in the right place. That's different from what I used to do.

But it's entirely possible that my main interest in D/s rather than S&M could partially be based on my wish not to return to a place where self-injury was my only recourse for deep emotional pain.

Does that help?

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 6:50:19 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know anything about this...I've never self-injured.  But I am curious...what is picking?

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 6:56:54 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach


If it's not overly personal to those of you who've said that you do (or at one time did) such activities - what sort of internal rationalization goes on?  What emotional/situational conditions bring it all about?


As one who used to self-mutilate (cuttting) and has bulmia (didn't ever think of this as self-mutilation)..I think that anyone can make any behavior rational in their minds if it's something they feel they need.
 
I can't say what it did for anyone else..but for me..I would just get to the point that I didn't know what to do with myself, I was very depressed anyway and I just had a ton of feelings to get out (hard to explain).. I went from using scissors (very ragged cutting) to using blades (clean but with more blood).  It became sort of a ritual, I would know that I needed it.  The scissors were more of an aggressive cut, something done is haste for a release.. I would just basically jab at my arm until I couldn't anymore.  When I switched to blades (the effect of the scissors wasn't enough) I would get one out..and make a cut, sometimes I would count them out letting myself only do so many (always going over by 3 or4) and I would watch each one bleed (I know, this sounds sick) if it bled, I felt like I would be okay.. if it didn't, I would need more to make up for that one (this would almost piss me off).  I found that to me, it was almost erotic (I know that isn't the word..but I can't really find one to describe it).  It lets something go, lets something out..and for me that would continue till the stinging or burning kicked in and then I would get neosporin and rub it on and just sit there and try to figure out why the hell I did it again. 
 
For a while though, it does help.  To try to explain it (not sure how I have done) to someone that doesn't do it, is very hard.  It is like a Dom or sub trying to explain to someone outside of the "life" why they enjoy what they do.. there really is no way to "get it".  Much like I don't understand the reasoning behind most things, or even cutting until I started it, and once said, I don't know how someone can be bulimic for years.  It's just a thing that can't really be understood unless you do it, or feel the need to.
 
I did it for a while, I still have probably a hundred scars on each arm (this I hate) they are there to remind me everyday of what I did.  I call them my "battle scars" though.  I almost killed myself one day, and I didn't.  After that, cutting just didn't hold anything for me.  I wish that it did sometimes, but it doesn't.
 
Do I think that it has something to do with bdsm?  I don't know to be honest.  I mean, I don't think so.  They may give sort of the same release for me, yet I know that the cutting is self-abuse.  I wonder though when I beg Sir to hit me harder... if maybe I am begging for that same thing.. that release of pain, that release of emotion.  It's a fine line for me.. maybe for more people.  That also may be something that is an individual thing and can't all be grouped together.  What might connect them for me, wouldn't for someone else.
 
I hope that helped some, I am not sure if I explained it in the right way.  This is why I learned never to judge why others do things, or what makes someone happy.  I can't be in their heads and experience what it gives them.  Like I said, I for one said I would never do any of it.. I didn't get it..but now..I have done both. 
 
                                    ~andrea (ticia)

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 7:03:22 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		It explains a lot, actually, Lizzie - Thank You!
 
What I'm getting (both from you and from Zumala's comments and rereading the earlier comments) is that it is flat out a coping strategy, gained because one isn't taught other means of coping. 
 
I can definately understand YOUR specific case, simply because I know from personal experience how difficult it is to be in an abusive situation and find it in yourself to leave.  I'm thinking that part of my finding this all so incomprehensible is because I led what could be considered an almost "perfect" childhood while growing up.  Yeah, it had it's down points (which we won't go into LoL) - yet I was taught coping mechanisms for stress, didn't face familial abuse on any Significant level, and was always encouraged by my parents to seek "appropriate" outlets both for my energies and my stresses.  I grew up knowing that I could trust parts of my family with even my darkest secrets, that I could take any of my internal (or external) pains to them for assistance, and that they weren't going to stop caring even if it was something they found wrong or stupid or silly or completely incomprehensible.
 
I have to wonder though, how many people would see issues like remaining overweight and smoking - which are known to potentially be self destructive - as simply another form of the same situation that we're discussing here.  Obviously they can't be compared on some levels, and I'm Not intending to imply that they can, or to mitigate the seriousness of actions like cutting or burning.  I am curious now, though, as to whether anyone happens to see a possible correlation between those two sides of things as inappropriate coping mechanisms.

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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 7:43:03 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach


I have to wonder though, how many people would see issues like remaining overweight and smoking - which are known to potentially be self destructive - as simply another form of the same situation that we're discussing here.  Obviously they can't be compared on some levels, and I'm Not intending to imply that they can, or to mitigate the seriousness of actions like cutting or burning.  I am curious now, though, as to whether anyone happens to see a possible correlation between those two sides of things as inappropriate coping mechanisms.


I do think that my association with food is unhealthy and I do use it to cope with things.  I use it to both comfort (binging) and to punish (purging).  I wish I could get rid of this unhealthy action probably more than any other.  Somehow I think if I conquered this ground, this unreachable hold on my life, then I could do just about anything.  I have beat so much and the fact that food is always my vice no matter how much else I come back from, to be honest.. it really ticks me off.
 
This is something I am working on and actually throwing my energy into right now.  This is actually me doing it in a healthy way.  I am hoping that it will not only help me solve this "obsession" but lead to other things in my life being healed as well.
 
                                         andrea (ticia)

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 7:51:36 AM   
enthralled


Posts: 249
Joined: 9/13/2005
From: Nashville, Tn
Status: offline 		Being a former cutter, I don't believe that submission and self-injury are related to each other. The majority of submissives that I know have never cut, mutilated, or injured themselves in any way, shape or fasion. However, being a masochist, I know of many fellow masochists who are former cutters and are more extreme than the 'mainstream' SM players.
As for insuring that BDSM doesnt become "unhealthy".... I have no 'emotional issues' I need to work through, I don't scene to relieve an internal pain or stress, there's nothing that provaokes these type scenes other than I have a desire for intensity and the sight of blood excites me- in my opinion, SM is exactly what insures my safety . I don't play with anyone that I don't trust with my life ... literally!! We could talk about levels of play and all, but it would boil down to 'my kink not being your kink' which is not the subject here. I am an adrenaline junkie .... my play partners insure my safety and well-being which makes 'BDSM' healthier than the 'alternative'.
If it DOES become a problem, I would stronly urge anyone to seek professional help.

http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/injury.html

~enthralled


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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 8:13:57 AM   
midniterider7


Posts: 18
Joined: 4/24/2006
Status: offline 		I better stop biting my nails.

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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 8:21:25 AM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		I was going to post a new topic about this subject but this seems as good a place to say what I have to say.
 
Recently I stumbled upon a website that has video clips of people (nearly all of them male) mutilating themselves.  It goes beyond body modification to be sure.  People are literally splitting their penis in two right down the middle, skinning the shaft, cutting open the scrotum and pushing the testes out of the skin, driving carpenter nails directly through their testicles, etc.  One man is seen shocking himself with 200 volts and has to wear rubber leggings to prevent shock to his body.  Another has injected his penis and scrotum with silicone making it roughly 4 times its natural size...permanently.
 
I cannot fathom what would motivate anyone to do such extreme acts to themselves.  Perhaps they are all terminally ill so it doesn't matter anymore.  That's the best I can come up with for an explanation.  It really boggles the mind.
 
anthrosub

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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 8:24:42 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
 
I have to wonder though, how many people would see issues like remaining overweight and smoking - which are known to potentially be self destructive - as simply another form of the same situation that we're discussing here.  Obviously they can't be compared on some levels, and I'm Not intending to imply that they can, or to mitigate the seriousness of actions like cutting or burning.  I am curious now, though, as to whether anyone happens to see a possible correlation between those two sides of things as inappropriate coping mechanisms.


Being overweight is not always something that is easily overcome. There's genetics involved. There's long-term habits, both physical and emotional, that are involved. There are a lot of things that can go into being overweight that are not necessarily about coping mechanisms. They could be but they aren't necessarily.

The same with smoking. It may be a coping mechanism or it may not be. I have a friend who was a smoker for years. When she quit she realized that her smoking wasn't merely a habit, it was something she truly enjoyed. She loved the hit of nicotine. She didn't use smoking to cope, it was something she did out of love. She quit out of love of self.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 8:36:22 AM   
lanwolf


Posts: 78
Joined: 10/31/2005
Status: offline 		i have never self injured myself. my heavy S/m play is a relase of stress and tension and also a sexual turn on. When i am reciving a cutting its a very cleansing experiance for me and a thrill and rush to feel the blade cut the skin. All that being said i have no desire to do any self injury to myself, the toys i play with are all in my house and it has been months since i have played with One that has done cutting's, i am craving to be cut up to feel that cleansing and the rush but i feel no need to pick up the blade myself and do it to my self. If i did that it would not be the same in my mind becuase without a Dom there doing the act it is just not the same.

(in reply to sublizzie)
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RE: submissives and self-injury - 7/4/2006 8:42:22 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		I would agree with you. What is done to me is different from what I would do to myself even if it's done with the same implement. Doing to myself is about releasing the internal pain. Having it done to me is about me submitting to someone else's dominance. Very different things to me.

(in reply to lanwolf)
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