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How do you feel about the move to "Online Courses ... - 9/29/2013 10:59:51 PM   
NoBimbosAllowed


Posts: 1450
Joined: 9/19/2013
Status: offline 		SO many courses getting the ax, SO many music teachers no longer being able to teach one-on-one, SO many things people paid for thinking they'd get a traditional "College Course" experience, even if it's an excellent Community College experience, suddenly evaporating into the cyber-digi-wank muck and quagmire of "just skype or e-mail with the tutor - it's JUST AS GOOD!".

If you were someone who saved for years for a proper tertiary education, or a loving relative who saved to help a young person in your family get a real go at being the next Yo Yo Ma or Nuryev or Lucien Freud, how would you feel about that? Especially if less than a year ago you'd been taxed up up the ying-yang to "assist" education and studied into the "needs" of education, then suddenly all you have left are a bunch of half-assed you-tube 'how to' clips?

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/29/2013 11:41:08 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline 		Personally, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to spending my money on an education. I think online is okay for a few general education classes (English, social studies, etc) but beyond that, they're a joke. At least, that's been my experience. Not being able to discuss things with an instructor through anything but email can make it extremely difficult to get the best answer about something you may have a problem understanding. And really, do you think it would be easier to learn calculus or physiology via email? Not to mention how online classes seem to abbreviate the subject material you're trying to master. It just doesn't work that well.

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 12:00:47 AM   
NoBimbosAllowed


Posts: 1450
Joined: 9/19/2013
Status: offline 		Excellent answer, well articulated. Thanks you for taking the time and actually having some form of EMOTION expressed on the topic.

There is no way the benefit I gained from certain instructors could EVER have happened "digitally".

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 3:57:39 AM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline 		I'm in two minds about this. The time I spent at Uni was a wonderful education in a lot of things, but the theory I learnt could all have been read off a screen or discussed with my tutor by online chat or email. If a lecture is a process for transferring info from the lecturer's notebook to the student's without passing through the heads of either, we might as well update the process with copy-and-paste and save everyone's time. The only thing I had to be physically there for was the lab practicals, and if that could be arranged some other way, my course could have been provided for a tenth the cost.

My son is right now studying for a second diploma by correspondence and online (because the one he has isn't practical enough to get him a job,) and I don't see any way he's learning less than he did when he was going to college every day. (Except that he's not getting practice in getting up in time to commute to work, but that's another problem for another day.)

My tentative conclusion: the only thing wrong with this is trying to make it a way to do the old style education on the cheap. It needs to be redesigned from the ground up as an online system.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 6:03:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed
SO many courses getting the ax, SO many music teachers no longer being able to teach one-on-one, SO many things people paid for thinking they'd get a traditional "College Course" experience, even if it's an excellent Community College experience, suddenly evaporating into the cyber-digi-wank muck and quagmire of "just skype or e-mail with the tutor - it's JUST AS GOOD!".
If you were someone who saved for years for a proper tertiary education, or a loving relative who saved to help a young person in your family get a real go at being the next Yo Yo Ma or Nuryev or Lucien Freud, how would you feel about that? Especially if less than a year ago you'd been taxed up up the ying-yang to "assist" education and studied into the "needs" of education, then suddenly all you have left are a bunch of half-assed you-tube 'how to' clips?


As RottenJohnny said, General Ed. courses would be fine online. At ITT Tech, this was the case. It does allow for people who have physical limitations to not have to travel to school. If you are having issues, there were set times that the instructor was available for online chat, which is more than simply email (which is always an option, even if you're attending the classroom lectures). And, if the local campus was offering the same course, you were allowed to attend and get help directly from that instructor (the online instructor won't necessarily be the local instructor, but is either a regional or national (I forget which) instructor). I was going to take one Gen Ed online, but decided to take a different course instead and continued to attend campus.

Any "lab" sort of classes were not offered online. That only makes sense, too. But, for a "lecture-only" type of class, I can't see why it wouldn't be a boon. Instructor interaction is important if you aren't catching on, and there usually are ways to deal with that. The problem comes into play when your personal best style of learning isn't through e-classes.

Staying away from attendance based instruction could impact the social development of some people. I'd like to see "podcasts" of classes available online for students that were too ill to attend classes for a day. How great would that be?

I did have a class that was nearly 75% video based for the lectures. That is, when I physically attended the class, I had to sit through 3x more videos than instructor lecture. There was a lab involved, too, so there was still no way to not attend. The class could be considered a GenEd class as nothing was really technology based. I was not happy about it and let the instructor know. I also let the instructor know that I very much enjoyed her lectures and help and was being critical of the class setup which was Corporate controlled. I was not being critical of her as she was doing a great job despite the poor class design.




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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 6:30:57 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Personally, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to spending my money on an education. I think online is okay for a few general education classes (English, social studies, etc) but beyond that, they're a joke. At least, that's been my experience. Not being able to discuss things with an instructor through anything but email can make it extremely difficult to get the best answer about something you may have a problem understanding. And really, do you think it would be easier to learn calculus or physiology via email? Not to mention how online classes seem to abbreviate the subject material you're trying to master. It just doesn't work that well.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Personally, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to spending my money on an education. I think online is okay for a few general education classes (English, social studies, etc) but beyond that, they're a joke. At least, that's been my experience. Not being able to discuss things with an instructor through anything but email can make it extremely difficult to get the best answer about something you may have a problem understanding. And really, do you think it would be easier to learn calculus or physiology via email? Not to mention how online classes seem to abbreviate the subject material you're trying to master. It just doesn't work that well.


I think the potential to learning online is still there, such as in an online class where everyone has microphones and cameras where they can discuss things with the instructor directly, if need be. True, it's not the same thing as traditional, face-to-face education, but it doesn't mean it's a complete joke. If there's an online course with a professor who's top-notch and well-known in his field, that would still be better than a live lecture from a marginal teaching assistant in a room with 200 other students.

I think that there's still some room for improvement as far as replicating real world communication, but technology might be better improved in the future so that online learning can be just as effective as traditional methods, depending on the subject. Some things would still require a hands on approach, where an online or correspondence course would be insufficient. Science courses would be problematic if they involve experimentation, although I suppose students could do their experiments at home and e-mail the results to their instructor. (That, in and of itself, would have some potential for disaster.) Anything that would require any kind of hands-on learning would also be unsuitable for online instruction.


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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 8:04:48 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		There are many free (but un-credited) college courses that can offer a different perspective or can give you an elite college experience by exposing you to courses from MIT, Yale, Harvard, Stanford and Berkeley.
http://www.openculture.com/freeonlinecourses


There was a recent program on just this topic: http://wgbhnews.org/post/college-20-labor-day-special
Here is the panel discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdDh8eK6SVo

Khan Academy has tutorials on so many things, and from what I have seen is a valuable learning tool.

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 9:10:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
There are many free (but un-credited) college courses that can offer a different perspective or can give you an elite college experience by exposing you to courses from MIT, Yale, Harvard, Stanford and Berkeley.
http://www.openculture.com/freeonlinecourses
There was a recent program on just this topic: http://wgbhnews.org/post/college-20-labor-day-special
Here is the panel discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdDh8eK6SVo
Khan Academy has tutorials on so many things, and from what I have seen is a valuable learning tool.


Lots of free options for no credits, though.

http://www.ucscout.org/

http://www.free-ed.net/free-ed/

http://www.edosy.com/

http://freevideolectures.com/


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to angelikaJ)
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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 9:17:56 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I can see how some online classes could be very helpful and informative. I'm constantly visiting YouTube and other sites for various "how to" answers and general information.

But for the most part I am against online lessons for college and high school classes. Here is why (or at least a big part of "why"). Online you would have the opportunity to, at least at times, converse with the instructor. Fine and good. That gives you two perspectives on any given subject, yours and the instructor's. What you are missing are the perspectives of 15, 20 or more other classmates. You ask a question and the instructor gives his or her answer. What you are missing is when the person across the room raises their hand and asks, "But what if.....?" Then another person goes, "Oh yeah, but I thought...." You just don't get that with online.

Also, in this country, and probably most of the world, a big, big part of the population is losing their social skills. They interact with computers instead of people. You see it right here on these boards when people admit that they act differently at the keyboard than they do in public. And personally, I think that when people don't have social skills they lash out instead of cooperate, creating everything from fights in the aisles at WalMart, to road rage, to mass killing. Doing more and more online stuff, whether computer games or more online classes, only adds to the problem.

< Message edited by igor2003 -- 9/30/2013 9:18:46 AM >

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 4:34:18 PM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
You ask a question and the instructor gives his or her answer. What you are missing is when the person across the room raises their hand and asks, "But what if.....?" Then another person goes, "Oh yeah, but I thought...." You just don't get that with online.


Funny, I thought that was exactly what was happening right here?

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 4:53:05 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		years ago there were courses you could take on your own (home-study).. where I lived when I was 21 I took the course that stock brokers take and it was home study (now you also need a post-secondary degree there to be one).. I passed the course all on my own.. most people had mentors that helped them get thru the course, I didn't have a mentor tho.. a mentor would have helped, I guess, but one wasn't actually necessary if you had half-a-brain and could read & comprehend..

I don't see anything wrong with online courses at all.. the cost of a formal education is so high that it could take a decade for a kid to pay off all the student loans.. that is one expensive education!.. personally, if there was a course at a university/college I was interested in I would just find out what books they used for the course and buy those.. and not even bother with the online or in-person courses.. Also some online courses don't get you credit toward a degree.. Wharton has apparently some of its first year courses online but you don't get credit for them if you want a degree..

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 4:54:50 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

I've never taken an online class, so I can't weigh in on their merits.

But one thought that strikes me is that an awful lot of my true college education took place outside the classroom. I'm not sure how one replicates that online. I'm not saying it's impossible; I just don't know how it would be done.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 5:24:39 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
years ago there were courses you could take on your own (home-study).. where I lived when I was 21 I took the course that stock brokers take and it was home study (now you also need a post-secondary degree there to be one).. I passed the course all on my own.. most people had mentors that helped them get thru the course, I didn't have a mentor tho.. a mentor would have helped, I guess, but one wasn't actually necessary if you had half-a-brain and could read & comprehend..
I don't see anything wrong with online courses at all.. the cost of a formal education is so high that it could take a decade for a kid to pay off all the student loans.. that is one expensive education!.. personally, if there was a course at a university/college I was interested in I would just find out what books they used for the course and buy those.. and not even bother with the online or in-person courses.. Also some online courses don't get you credit toward a degree.. Wharton has apparently some of its first year courses online but you don't get credit for them if you want a degree..


There is too much money in higher education for it to be free, sad to say.

If you have a local uni, you might be able to "audit" a course (that's what it's called in my neck of the woods) for free. While you don't have to pay, you don't get any credit, either. You can buy the books and sit in on all the lectures. I'm not sure what the deal is with homework/exams/grades, but I'm willing to bet that if you approach the instructor he/she could likely be talked into grading your work, even though it isn't going to count.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
I've never taken an online class, so I can't weigh in on their merits.
But one thought that strikes me is that an awful lot of my true college education took place outside the classroom. I'm not sure how one replicates that online. I'm not saying it's impossible; I just don't know how it would be done.


DC, many instructors will tell you that all college does is give you the background understanding for a job in some field, but the real learning will be "on the job" as there are too many different occupations within one degree for any university to properly train you.

The social skills that are built through physically attending school and interacting with instructors and other students will, obviously, be missed. I tried to talk University of Phoenix Online to let me try out for their online football team, but, I would have been in violation of NCAA rules regarding being paid for work and stuff. As one who had played quite a bit of NCAA College Football on the Sega Genesis, I think I could have led them to a Bowl Game.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 5:33:07 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

DC, many instructors will tell you that all college does is give you the background understanding for a job in some field, but the real learning will be "on the job" as there are too many different occupations within one degree for any university to properly train you.

Very true.

I was thinking more, though, of what I learned from meeting, living, and conversing with folks whose perspectives I'd never encountered before, exploring the city, doing work-study jobs, volunteering with the homeless, and studying overseas.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 5:37:31 PM   
slavekate80


Posts: 362
Joined: 7/4/2013
Status: offline 		There are some problems with online courses. Students who don't have reliable access to the Internet may not be able to take those classes, at least not without physically going to the school anyway. And it's a poor choice for some students with disabilities, though it's equal to or even superior to traditional classroom-based education for others, depending on the disability.

I don't like the idea of classes only being available online, but I think it's a good idea to offer an online course for most of the basics, and reduce the number of classroom sections accordingly.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 5:59:31 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

There is too much money in higher education for it to be free, sad to say.

If you have a local uni, you might be able to "audit" a course (that's what it's called in my neck of the woods) for free. While you don't have to pay, you don't get any credit, either. You can buy the books and sit in on all the lectures. I'm not sure what the deal is with homework/exams/grades, but I'm willing to bet that if you approach the instructor he/she could likely be talked into grading your work, even though it isn't going to count.


yes, I have audited courses before also..

Imo, its not just the cost of tuition, books & living expenses, its that you are attending full time plus doing homework after that so you aren't earning an income (or its very small if you do have a part-time job).. so imo the 4 or so years of loss of income also adds to the final/total cost of your education..

I tend to agree with this dude (& that road is the one that would personally appeal to me over years in college):

"Peter Thiel Gives Whiz Kids $100K To Quit College, Start Businesses
Now they're all getting two years of mentoring from a network of tech and entrepreneurial experts and $100,000 to start a business. The benefactor? PayPal founder, early Facebook investor, and Stanford's least favorite alumnus, Peter Thiel. Least favorite because Thiel has been making waves by arguing that college is an overhyped, overpriced bubble, and that the world needs better ways to recognize young talent."

http://www.fastcompany.com/1755089/peter-thiel-gives-whiz-kids-100k-quit-college-start-businesses

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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 6:21:51 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed

SO many courses getting the ax, SO many music teachers no longer being able to teach one-on-one, SO many things people paid for thinking they'd get a traditional "College Course" experience, even if it's an excellent Community College experience, suddenly evaporating into the cyber-digi-wank muck and quagmire of "just skype or e-mail with the tutor - it's JUST AS GOOD!".

If you were someone who saved for years for a proper tertiary education, or a loving relative who saved to help a young person in your family get a real go at being the next Yo Yo Ma or Nuryev or Lucien Freud, how would you feel about that? Especially if less than a year ago you'd been taxed up up the ying-yang to "assist" education and studied into the "needs" of education, then suddenly all you have left are a bunch of half-assed you-tube 'how to' clips?


Write a check.

(in reply to NoBimbosAllowed)
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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 6:56:18 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Distance learning and correspondence courses have been around for a long time.

The thing that seems to get overlooked in the discussions of online courses and MOOCs is that there is more to effective learning than simply handing out a pile of information, and collecting tuition.

Without assessment, the instructor doesn't get the feedback needed to fully teach, instead of simply 'profess'. And there is no way that a single Harvard professor is going to scrutinize and assess all the work from a thousand free students in addition to their regular workload.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 7:30:48 PM   
NoBimbosAllowed


Posts: 1450
Joined: 9/19/2013
Status: offline 		fantastic replies, all. Going off aggregate of some of the statements, and having taught once or twice in situ myself, one of the questions that arises with "digital only" is that no-one who has paid good money for the class or the installment of the class has the same freedom (in the same way) to shoot up a hand and ask an impromptu question. Something valid, maybe INTEGRAL, could be blatantly (and wrongfully) ignored. IMO this not fair to any student who pays more than 5ยข in the current economic collapse.

_____________________________

It's all about the curvature of the female azzzzzzzzzzz, meaning Niki Minaj and Serena Williams and Kate Cerebrano, NEVER Kylie Minogue! Wooden Spoons and Ottoman scenes from Story of O, baby dolls!

(in reply to EdBowie)
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RE: How do you feel about the move to "Online Cour... - 9/30/2013 8:03:11 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I have taken all of my college classes online and love them. They are convenient for me while I work and I can do things I would not normally be able to do because of traditional classes. If I want to go somewhere, I can. I can go at my own speed and learn at my own pace. I like that I can be in the comfort of my own home. But I'm also one of these people that learns by doing instead of sitting and listening to someone. I need to be able to teach myself something. I suck at traditional classes. I fall asleep in classes when I just sit there and listen to someone speak. At home, I have the opportunity to read and research on my own which I love.

Online classes aren't for everyone. Master and my daughter don't like online classes either so they take traditional classes whereas I have the patience for online. I'm also not a people person so I'm not having anxiety attacks knowing I have to sit in a classroom full of other people.

It's not like you don't have a choice. If you don't like online classes, don't take them. There are plenty of colleges out there who are still traditional.

ETA: I just started a new semester and to be honest, my online classes have been much more involved and difficult than when I had traditional classes. When I had traditional classes we rarely got assignments or at least very few. With my online classes, I have to write tons of essays which are checked thoroughly for plagiarism and my assignments are 10 times longer than any others I took with offline classes. So to say online is easier? Not from my perspective of having taken online classes for the past 3 years now.



< Message edited by littlewonder -- 9/30/2013 8:07:28 PM >

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