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Real0ne -> RE: Personal incomes still falling (8/25/2013 11:32:52 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:
ORIGINAL: Real0ne
well then we will have to agree to disagree. the tax burden is constantly being shifted to us.
corporate taxes in this country were the only taxes in the begining, and later sold to us as intended to be far higher than the individual since they have what we do not!
LEVERAGE.
Because they have have the advantage of far greater leverage than the individual the idea was much higher taxation to help level the playing field out there.
However as you can see money talks. Their money talks very loudly, in fact it drowns out the voices of the multitudes of individuals whos opportunities are stolen.
The same individuals who wind up on the welfare roles because of that same thievery by our 2 party dicktatorship that funnels everything to their pals regardless of party
[image]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y410/mypbemotes/charts/o-FEDERAL-REVENUE-570_zpsc7d799d2.png[/image]
I dont need to put up carlins "american dream" clip.
Real One:
Factually, you are wrong. Original taxes were import duties. Income taxes weren't allowed until the 16th(?) amendment passed under Wilson.
Second Issue: corporations do not pay taxes. Taxes imposed on a corporation are passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices. So either way, consumers pay either in the direct form (government taxes) or the indirect form (higher prices).
Now, I readily admit that pricing isn't fully elastic.
The really pernicious thing about this is the side effects of corporate taxes: taxes impose a regulatory burden on a company. It takes incredible amounts of time to comply with Uncle Sams burdens. So fewer corporations are formed, fewer products are developed etc.
But additionally, when corporations close and jobs are shipped overseas, the monies that would go to US citizens now goes to supporting chinese citizens.
Look, as a thought experiment: What would happen if the corporate tax rates were set to zero.
Sure, the initial effect would be that corporate profits would soar. But after that - what are the companies going to do with their money?
They are either going to
-give it to consumers in the form of stock dividends
-Invest in new manufacturing facilities, new products
-expand through the purchase of other companies
-retire debt.
Essentially, we can give the money to the government so *they* can decide what to do with it, or, you can let individuals and corporations keep their money so *they* can decide what to do with it.
And generally speaking - I would rather millions of people keep their money - and decide how to invest it - than the govt.
Ok I will bite that one, sort of.
Yes the original taxes were excise, but also feudal taxes to the king for protection from invading armies, with the caveat that they were collected from the manor and plantation owners which were grants directly under the king and its nobles etc. These were chartered companies, corporations and individuals loyal to the king. Seems to me taxes were based on crop yield and limited (capped) to around 1% total.
I deleted that chart btw and preplaced it with this one.
[image]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y410/mypbemotes/charts/o-FEDERAL-REVENUE-570_zps37f21580.png[/image]
that more accurately represents whos pockets the taxes are coming from.
In theory they do not pay taxes, because in theory any windfall is passed onto the shareholders however in practice that is simply not the case and they do pay on anything they hold that they do not pay out to their shareholders. It is usually reinvested in themselves and that is taxable corporate profits.
Agreed! They pass all those taxes on to the consumer which is "precisely" what we want them to do! In fact we want their prices so high no one can afford to buy from them! It forces the corps to charge higher prices hence BALANCING the supply demand equation between the individual and corporation!
That is the problem, the individual has higher costs, equal or higher taxes than the corporations and can no longer compete, where in its original design the higher taxes were the equalizer it no longer exists and the corps have it ALL and can offer prices that the individual cannot touch, the windfall going to a small handful of execs on the top.
Hence the original system was completely defeated and the growing disparity we have and the growing lefty righty fights and hatred toward each other because the solution is not black and white obvious and not solvable by only one party, but government at large, . Hence most people bark up the wrong tree trying every dead end solution, the country is a waste land and they become slaves to eternal debt as their reward for their ignorance
Though it was known throughout history and our politicians are too busy fleecing the sheep for themselves and their pals.
quote:
Jefferson might not have wanted a lot of government, but he wanted enough government to assert the sovereignty of citizens over corporations. To his view, nothing was more important to the health of the republic.
In the early years of the 19th century, as banks and corporations began to flex their political muscles, he announced that: “I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." [well we havent, instead we grew them into conglomerates!]
There are those who would have us believe that the founders intended for corporations to control our elections – and, tragically, five of these Tories sit on the U.S. Supreme Court, where they recently ruled that the nation’s biggest businesses may spend whatever they like to buy the results that best serve their bottom lines.
corps are not BIG money they are conglomerates now days and GARGANTUAN money.
Yes tax them out of existence along with their trusts and open up markets for individuals who at some point also would need to be tax capped, as much as I bite my tongue to say that.
The taxation rate for corps would look like their profit chart in my previous post!
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