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RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 3:50:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I wouldn't accept statistic from Al w/o verification...and I'll treat Pat the same.

(parenthetically, it's actually somewhat startling how difficult it is to find statistics from a reliable, verifiable, citable source on things like white on black crime and vice versa. Something like this, one would think a few minutes on google would leave one good to go.Not even kinda sorta true. Is this such a hot button topic that no reputable agency/firm/university will publish research on it? A paranoid conspiracy theory type might even conclude that such investigation is discouraged...)

I looked into this a few years back. The problem is that different jurisdictions report different information. The FBI does collect what is reported but doesn't release the stuff that is very fragmentary. Some places choose not to report the race of the victim citing privacy. In other cases the perpetrator's race is based on the arresting officer's opinion which results in a fair amount of confusion. And some places report only that the crime occurred with no demographic information on either the victim or perpetrator.

I didn't read Buchanan's bile but I assume he is citing some claim that black on white crime is hugely more common than white on white or white on black. You can spend some time back tracing those claims but you'll likely end up in the morass of the right wing echo chamber where one references another and that one references another and so on and so on. If you find the original source it will likely either not be a actual science but some column on vdare ot the like or it will be wildly misrepresented.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 3:53:54 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I wouldn't accept statistic from Al w/o verification...and I'll treat Pat the same.

(parenthetically, it's actually somewhat startling how difficult it is to find statistics from a reliable, verifiable, citable source on things like white on black crime and vice versa. Something like this, one would think a few minutes on google would leave one good to go.Not even kinda sorta true. Is this such a hot button topic that no reputable agency/firm/university will publish research on it? A paranoid conspiracy theory type might even conclude that such investigation is discouraged...)

I looked into this a few years back. The problem is that different jurisdictions report different information. The FBI does collect what is reported but doesn't release the stuff that is very fragmentary. Some places choose not to report the race of the victim citing privacy. In other cases the perpetrator's race is based on the arresting officer's opinion which results in a fair amount of confusion. And some places report only that the crime occurred with no demographic information on either the victim or perpetrator.

I didn't read Buchanan's bile but I assume he is citing some claim that black on white crime is hugely more common than white on white or white on black. You can spend some time back tracing those claims but you'll likely end up in the morass of the right wing echo chamber where one references another and that one references another and so on and so on. If you find the original source it will likely either not be a actual science but some column on vdare ot the like or it will be wildly misrepresented.

I'm thinking I would have to compile the stats by individual case,which would be massively time consuming (Research grant, puuulllleeeeze.I mean crap,where's the Heritage Foundation when ya need em).
But you have to admit, it's somewhat odd that one can't find good stats on this. I mean shit, the govt keeps stats on their stats. It's downright odd that they don't have these.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 3:54:29 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

But.... what happened to the black leadership that was invested in progress, non-violence, and undoing the hate? What happened to Bayard, Medgar, MLK and so on?

This may have been rhetorical, but I was interested in the answers, so I hit Google. MLK, we all know, was shot. Ditto for Medgar Evans. Bayard Rustin was sidelined by homophobia after being arrested for sex with another guy. It sounds, though, that he may have remained influential behind the scenes. He later focused on LGBT rights.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:00:21 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		People don't always report crimes. Police don't always document crimes. Cities don't always forward accurate reports of crimes.

And some things that might be crimes, aren't always discovered. If someone decides to leave home and never come back, that isn't necessarily a crime. If they are killed doing so and their body never found, how does that get recorded? Missing person, or homicide? Does that happen once a year in the US or a hundred times?

The best crime stats are simply a WAG.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I wouldn't accept statistic from Al w/o verification...and I'll treat Pat the same.

(parenthetically, it's actually somewhat startling how difficult it is to find statistics from a reliable, verifiable, citable source on things like white on black crime and vice versa. Something like this, one would think a few minutes on google would leave one good to go.Not even kinda sorta true. Is this such a hot button topic that no reputable agency/firm/university will publish research on it? A paranoid conspiracy theory type might even conclude that such investigation is discouraged...)

I looked into this a few years back. The problem is that different jurisdictions report different information. The FBI does collect what is reported but doesn't release the stuff that is very fragmentary. Some places choose not to report the race of the victim citing privacy. In other cases the perpetrator's race is based on the arresting officer's opinion which results in a fair amount of confusion. And some places report only that the crime occurred with no demographic information on either the victim or perpetrator.

I didn't read Buchanan's bile but I assume he is citing some claim that black on white crime is hugely more common than white on white or white on black. You can spend some time back tracing those claims but you'll likely end up in the morass of the right wing echo chamber where one references another and that one references another and so on and so on. If you find the original source it will likely either not be a actual science but some column on vdare ot the like or it will be wildly misrepresented.

I'm thinking I would have to compile the stats by individual case,which would be massively time consuming (Research grant, puuulllleeeeze.I mean crap,where's the Heritage Foundation when ya need em).
But you have to admit, it's somewhat odd that one can't find good stats on this. I mean shit, the govt keeps stats on their stats. It's downright odd that they don't have these.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:03:01 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
but if I'm looking at the FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Report), I'm going to take their word on it in general.

wow.

I have to say that my faith in the veracity of ANYTHING published by the US government is minimal at best. Seriously, we live in an age where pretty much every week we find another massive way they were lying to us. The US Govt is one of the least credible sources I can think of.

For me, I like peer reviewed science journals or direct quotes (with context and ideally video). Although now that I think of it I just quoted a think tank. But since it was a think tank from the opposite side of the debate and it still supported my point I felt that was pretty strong.

quote:

hard core stats from neutral think tanks (Tougher and tougher to find these days)

Serious question here... there IS such a thing? I'd written off the phrase "think tank" as "paid propaganda service".


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:03:58 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		And earlier Marcus Garvey was exiled after being framed by Hoover... others went into self imposed exile.

There is every appearance of a brain drain in the civil rights era leadership. Not buying into any conspiracy theory, but I do think that America would be better off if those folks were around and in charge instead of Al and Jesse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

But.... what happened to the black leadership that was invested in progress, non-violence, and undoing the hate? What happened to Bayard, Medgar, MLK and so on?

This may have been rhetorical, but I was interested in the answers, so I hit Google. MLK, we all know, was shot. Ditto for Medgar Evans. Bayard Rustin was sidelined by homophobia after being arrested for sex with another guy. It sounds, though, that he may have remained influential behind the scenes. He later focused on LGBT rights.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:05:17 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

People don't always report crimes. Police don't always document crimes. Cities don't always forward accurate reports of crimes.

And some things that might be crimes, aren't always discovered. If someone decides to leave home and never come back, that isn't necessarily a crime. If they are killed doing so and their body never found, how does that get recorded? Missing person, or homicide? Does that happen once a year in the US or a hundred times?

The best crime stats are simply a WAG.

True. But we could compile stats on those convicted or at least arrests. While not 100% accurate, they could be used to extrapolate a statistical analysis with a pretty high confidence ratio

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:08:41 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		That would give us a snapshot of those unable to avoid arrest or conviction... not an accurate picture of 'crime'.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

People don't always report crimes. Police don't always document crimes. Cities don't always forward accurate reports of crimes.

And some things that might be crimes, aren't always discovered. If someone decides to leave home and never come back, that isn't necessarily a crime. If they are killed doing so and their body never found, how does that get recorded? Missing person, or homicide? Does that happen once a year in the US or a hundred times?

The best crime stats are simply a WAG.

True. But we could compile stats on those convicted or at least arrests. While not 100% accurate, they could be used to extrapolate a statistical analysis with a pretty high confidence ratio



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:08:43 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
but if I'm looking at the FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Report), I'm going to take their word on it in general.

wow.

I have to say that my faith in the veracity of ANYTHING published by the US government is minimal at best. Seriously, we live in an age where pretty much every week we find another massive way they were lying to us. The US Govt is one of the least credible sources I can think of.

For me, I like peer reviewed science journals or direct quotes (with context and ideally video). Although now that I think of it I just quoted a think tank. But since it was a think tank from the opposite side of the debate and it still supported my point I felt that was pretty strong.

quote:

hard core stats from neutral think tanks (Tougher and tougher to find these days)

Serious question here... there IS such a thing? I'd written off the phrase "think tank" as "paid propaganda service".


1-Yeah, and I understand the skepticism, but really, where else ya gonna go? The govt keeps stats on everything.Most tend to be pretty good, especially those not political hot topics.No matter what you read,odds are at the core the stats and numbers from primary docs are largely going to be from the government.
2-Yeah, there are a few.Plus, there are some that specialize in one area and tend to do real well within their range of expertise. But again, the splintering we're watching in the political/social spectrum is echoing in these.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:08:46 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I wouldn't accept statistic from Al w/o verification...and I'll treat Pat the same.

(parenthetically, it's actually somewhat startling how difficult it is to find statistics from a reliable, verifiable, citable source on things like white on black crime and vice versa. Something like this, one would think a few minutes on google would leave one good to go.Not even kinda sorta true. Is this such a hot button topic that no reputable agency/firm/university will publish research on it? A paranoid conspiracy theory type might even conclude that such investigation is discouraged...)

I looked into this a few years back. The problem is that different jurisdictions report different information. The FBI does collect what is reported but doesn't release the stuff that is very fragmentary. Some places choose not to report the race of the victim citing privacy. In other cases the perpetrator's race is based on the arresting officer's opinion which results in a fair amount of confusion. And some places report only that the crime occurred with no demographic information on either the victim or perpetrator.

I didn't read Buchanan's bile but I assume he is citing some claim that black on white crime is hugely more common than white on white or white on black. You can spend some time back tracing those claims but you'll likely end up in the morass of the right wing echo chamber where one references another and that one references another and so on and so on. If you find the original source it will likely either not be a actual science but some column on vdare ot the like or it will be wildly misrepresented.

I'm thinking I would have to compile the stats by individual case,which would be massively time consuming (Research grant, puuulllleeeeze.I mean crap,where's the Heritage Foundation when ya need em).
But you have to admit, it's somewhat odd that one can't find good stats on this. I mean shit, the govt keeps stats on their stats. It's downright odd that they don't have these.

The problem is there is no legal requirement for the reporting of crime statistics and while the FBI does have a standard for reporting not all of the jurisdictions that do report their stats conform to that standard.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:09:54 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

That would give us a snapshot of those unable to avoid arrest or conviction... not an accurate picture of 'crime'.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

People don't always report crimes. Police don't always document crimes. Cities don't always forward accurate reports of crimes.

And some things that might be crimes, aren't always discovered. If someone decides to leave home and never come back, that isn't necessarily a crime. If they are killed doing so and their body never found, how does that get recorded? Missing person, or homicide? Does that happen once a year in the US or a hundred times?

The best crime stats are simply a WAG.

True. But we could compile stats on those convicted or at least arrests. While not 100% accurate, they could be used to extrapolate a statistical analysis with a pretty high confidence ratio



Grins
I had a CJ prof once say,"We shouldn't call it Criminology, because we don't really study crime. We should call it 'fuck-up-ology' because that's who and what we study."

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:13:46 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Here is a recent article posted to Yahoo. With all the African American uproar over the Zimmerman case are blacks in America justified in their beliefs on racism? Or is this article more racism from the media?

Even if I go with the idea that every single thing written is the absolute Truth(TM), the entire piece is so ridiculously slanted that it makes me laugh. Am I surprised that we have placed blacks into a harassed, poor and really desperate situation so they commit crime? No, I am not. Sorry, but we have a freakin war on blacks going on nowadays. It's not surprising that they don't feel all that bound by the social contract.

Specifically, I'm referring to the racial targeting with our "War on Drugs".

Yeah, desperate people do desperate things. That's why it's best to avoid having too many desperate people. I like social safety nets not because I have a bleeding heart (trust me I do not). I like them because it effectively mitigates crap like this.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:13:57 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Yep... almost as good a gig as unicorn hunting.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
Grins
I had a CJ prof once say,"We shouldn't call it Criminology, because we don't really study crime. We should call it 'fuck-up-ology' because that's who and what we study."



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:14:44 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Sorry, but we have a freakin war on blacks going on nowadays. It's not surprising that they don't feel all that bound by the social contract.

Specifically, I'm referring to the racial targeting with our "War on Drugs".


A-fucking-men!

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:19:10 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
A-fucking-men!

Given that one of hte largest segments of drug abuse nowadays is prescription drugs and prescriptions are tracked and recorded and whatnot I'm really struggling to understand why our jails aren't filling up with doctors, drug salesmen and pharmaceutical executives. Oh... wait... nevermind. I DO understand that.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 4:23:34 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

There is every appearance of a brain drain in the civil rights era leadership. Not buying into any conspiracy theory, but I do think that America would be better off if those folks were around and in charge instead of Al and Jesse.

Fascinating observation that I'd never considered before. Thanks!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 5:20:08 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Here is a recent article posted to Yahoo. With all the African American uproar over the Zimmerman case are blacks in America justified in their beliefs on racism? Or is this article more racism from the media?

Even if I go with the idea that every single thing written is the absolute Truth(TM), the entire piece is so ridiculously slanted that it makes me laugh. Am I surprised that we have placed blacks into a harassed, poor and really desperate situation so they commit crime? No, I am not. Sorry, but we have a freakin war on blacks going on nowadays. It's not surprising that they don't feel all that bound by the social contract.

Specifically, I'm referring to the racial targeting with our "War on Drugs".

Yeah, desperate people do desperate things. That's why it's best to avoid having too many desperate people. I like social safety nets not because I have a bleeding heart (trust me I do not). I like them because it effectively mitigates crap like this.


The only problem I have with your statement Jeff, is why blacks? Castro emptied his jails and brought Miami to its knees - but the cubans are working up the social ladder. The same with koreans in Virginia. The same with the vietnam boat people.

Mexicans (even suffering being illegal) are buying homes, and starting businesses. Despite the threat of legal harasment.

So lots of people are hitting our shores with no skills, no money, and nothing but an opportunity. Whats the difference?

Sure, drugs are one of the facets. But I think it is too facile to blame 150 years of lack of progress on drugs.
And yes, there is clearly racism. But other groups (italians, jews, irish, chinese) have faced incredible racism as well. Chinese workers for the railroads died in droves.

Until we can have an honest debate about the other components of the problem - it will never get fixed.


< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/19/2013 5:24:01 PM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 5:21:48 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And earlier Marcus Garvey was exiled after being framed by Hoover... others went into self imposed exile.

There is every appearance of a brain drain in the civil rights era leadership. Not buying into any conspiracy theory, but I do think that America would be better off if those folks were around and in charge instead of Al and Jesse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

But.... what happened to the black leadership that was invested in progress, non-violence, and undoing the hate? What happened to Bayard, Medgar, MLK and so on?

This may have been rhetorical, but I was interested in the answers, so I hit Google. MLK, we all know, was shot. Ditto for Medgar Evans. Bayard Rustin was sidelined by homophobia after being arrested for sex with another guy. It sounds, though, that he may have remained influential behind the scenes. He later focused on LGBT rights.



MLK or Al and Jessie? You have a flair for the obvious.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 5:37:13 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Well, if I'm looking at a primary source document....
I may want some substantiation, but if I'm looking at the FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Report), I'm going to take their word on it in general.


Anyone who watched the oj trial saw that the fbi are a bunch of incompetent twits who could not find their ass with both hands. Nothing they say should be believed unless you verify with two independent sources

quote:

Too many years as a researcher leaves me skeptical to most writing.
I'll accept certain top edge papers, research papers from elite academic U's,


Perhaps a look into who actually discovered quasars and who got the credit for the published paper. If you like, I believe I have a book I can recomend on fradulant "top edge papers and research papers from elite academic u's"

quote:

hard core stats from neutral think tanks (Tougher and tougher to find these days) and that's about it w/o backing.

In fact, once upon a time I worked for a legislator and a Prof who had waaaaaaaay too much experience with the media-he said they were all lies and misquotes and wouldn't let his students use any newspapers or magazines period.
He accepted hard research and academic papers and that was it.

I'm a bit softer, but I'll only accept a few papers and/or mags.


That is not how real research is done.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Is this Racism or an eye opener for the likes of Al... - 7/19/2013 5:37:38 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

150 years of lack of progress

Are you starting the clock in 1863?

The proverbial playing field was far from level at that point.

Indeed, we forget that there are people alive today who went to segregated schools and couldn't vote in many places.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 40
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