quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I wouldn't accept statistic from Al w/o verification...and I'll treat Pat the same.

(parenthetically, it's actually somewhat startling how difficult it is to find statistics from a reliable, verifiable, citable source on things like white on black crime and vice versa. Something like this, one would think a few minutes on google would leave one good to go.Not even kinda sorta true. Is this such a hot button topic that no reputable agency/firm/university will publish research on it? A paranoid conspiracy theory type might even conclude that such investigation is discouraged...)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I wouldn't accept statistic from Al w/o verification...and I'll treat Pat the same.

(parenthetically, it's actually somewhat startling how difficult it is to find statistics from a reliable, verifiable, citable source on things like white on black crime and vice versa. Something like this, one would think a few minutes on google would leave one good to go.Not even kinda sorta true. Is this such a hot button topic that no reputable agency/firm/university will publish research on it? A paranoid conspiracy theory type might even conclude that such investigation is discouraged...)

I looked into this a few years back. The problem is that different jurisdictions report different information. The FBI does collect what is reported but doesn't release the stuff that is very fragmentary. Some places choose not to report the race of the victim citing privacy. In other cases the perpetrator's race is based on the arresting officer's opinion which results in a fair amount of confusion. And some places report only that the crime occurred with no demographic information on either the victim or perpetrator.

I didn't read Buchanan's bile but I assume he is citing some claim that black on white crime is hugely more common than white on white or white on black. You can spend some time back tracing those claims but you'll likely end up in the morass of the right wing echo chamber where one references another and that one references another and so on and so on. If you find the original source it will likely either not be a actual science but some column on vdare ot the like or it will be wildly misrepresented.

quote:

But.... what happened to the black leadership that was invested in progress, non-violence, and undoing the hate? What happened to Bayard, Medgar, MLK and so on?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I wouldn't accept statistic from Al w/o verification...and I'll treat Pat the same.

(parenthetically, it's actually somewhat startling how difficult it is to find statistics from a reliable, verifiable, citable source on things like white on black crime and vice versa. Something like this, one would think a few minutes on google would leave one good to go.Not even kinda sorta true. Is this such a hot button topic that no reputable agency/firm/university will publish research on it? A paranoid conspiracy theory type might even conclude that such investigation is discouraged...)

I looked into this a few years back. The problem is that different jurisdictions report different information. The FBI does collect what is reported but doesn't release the stuff that is very fragmentary. Some places choose not to report the race of the victim citing privacy. In other cases the perpetrator's race is based on the arresting officer's opinion which results in a fair amount of confusion. And some places report only that the crime occurred with no demographic information on either the victim or perpetrator.

I didn't read Buchanan's bile but I assume he is citing some claim that black on white crime is hugely more common than white on white or white on black. You can spend some time back tracing those claims but you'll likely end up in the morass of the right wing echo chamber where one references another and that one references another and so on and so on. If you find the original source it will likely either not be a actual science but some column on vdare ot the like or it will be wildly misrepresented.

I'm thinking I would have to compile the stats by individual case,which would be massively time consuming (Research grant, puuulllleeeeze.I mean crap,where's the Heritage Foundation when ya need em).
But you have to admit, it's somewhat odd that one can't find good stats on this. I mean shit, the govt keeps stats on their stats. It's downright odd that they don't have these.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
but if I'm looking at the FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Report), I'm going to take their word on it in general.

quote:

hard core stats from neutral think tanks (Tougher and tougher to find these days)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

But.... what happened to the black leadership that was invested in progress, non-violence, and undoing the hate? What happened to Bayard, Medgar, MLK and so on?

This may have been rhetorical, but I was interested in the answers, so I hit Google. MLK, we all know, was shot. Ditto for Medgar Evans. Bayard Rustin was sidelined by homophobia after being arrested for sex with another guy. It sounds, though, that he may have remained influential behind the scenes. He later focused on LGBT rights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

People don't always report crimes. Police don't always document crimes. Cities don't always forward accurate reports of crimes.

And some things that might be crimes, aren't always discovered. If someone decides to leave home and never come back, that isn't necessarily a crime. If they are killed doing so and their body never found, how does that get recorded? Missing person, or homicide? Does that happen once a year in the US or a hundred times?

The best crime stats are simply a WAG.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

People don't always report crimes. Police don't always document crimes. Cities don't always forward accurate reports of crimes.

And some things that might be crimes, aren't always discovered. If someone decides to leave home and never come back, that isn't necessarily a crime. If they are killed doing so and their body never found, how does that get recorded? Missing person, or homicide? Does that happen once a year in the US or a hundred times?

The best crime stats are simply a WAG.

True. But we could compile stats on those convicted or at least arrests. While not 100% accurate, they could be used to extrapolate a statistical analysis with a pretty high confidence ratio

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
but if I'm looking at the FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Report), I'm going to take their word on it in general.

wow.

I have to say that my faith in the veracity of ANYTHING published by the US government is minimal at best. Seriously, we live in an age where pretty much every week we find another massive way they were lying to us. The US Govt is one of the least credible sources I can think of.

For me, I like peer reviewed science journals or direct quotes (with context and ideally video). Although now that I think of it I just quoted a think tank. But since it was a think tank from the opposite side of the debate and it still supported my point I felt that was pretty strong.

quote:

hard core stats from neutral think tanks (Tougher and tougher to find these days)

Serious question here... there IS such a thing? I'd written off the phrase "think tank" as "paid propaganda service".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I wouldn't accept statistic from Al w/o verification...and I'll treat Pat the same.

(parenthetically, it's actually somewhat startling how difficult it is to find statistics from a reliable, verifiable, citable source on things like white on black crime and vice versa. Something like this, one would think a few minutes on google would leave one good to go.Not even kinda sorta true. Is this such a hot button topic that no reputable agency/firm/university will publish research on it? A paranoid conspiracy theory type might even conclude that such investigation is discouraged...)

I looked into this a few years back. The problem is that different jurisdictions report different information. The FBI does collect what is reported but doesn't release the stuff that is very fragmentary. Some places choose not to report the race of the victim citing privacy. In other cases the perpetrator's race is based on the arresting officer's opinion which results in a fair amount of confusion. And some places report only that the crime occurred with no demographic information on either the victim or perpetrator.

I didn't read Buchanan's bile but I assume he is citing some claim that black on white crime is hugely more common than white on white or white on black. You can spend some time back tracing those claims but you'll likely end up in the morass of the right wing echo chamber where one references another and that one references another and so on and so on. If you find the original source it will likely either not be a actual science but some column on vdare ot the like or it will be wildly misrepresented.

I'm thinking I would have to compile the stats by individual case,which would be massively time consuming (Research grant, puuulllleeeeze.I mean crap,where's the Heritage Foundation when ya need em).
But you have to admit, it's somewhat odd that one can't find good stats on this. I mean shit, the govt keeps stats on their stats. It's downright odd that they don't have these.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

That would give us a snapshot of those unable to avoid arrest or conviction... not an accurate picture of 'crime'.[;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

People don't always report crimes. Police don't always document crimes. Cities don't always forward accurate reports of crimes.

And some things that might be crimes, aren't always discovered. If someone decides to leave home and never come back, that isn't necessarily a crime. If they are killed doing so and their body never found, how does that get recorded? Missing person, or homicide? Does that happen once a year in the US or a hundred times?

The best crime stats are simply a WAG.

True. But we could compile stats on those convicted or at least arrests. While not 100% accurate, they could be used to extrapolate a statistical analysis with a pretty high confidence ratio

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Here is a recent article posted to Yahoo. With all the African American uproar over the Zimmerman case are blacks in America justified in their beliefs on racism? Or is this article more racism from the media?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
Grins
I had a CJ prof once say,"We shouldn't call it Criminology, because we don't really study crime. We should call it 'fuck-up-ology' because that's who and what we study."

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Sorry, but we have a freakin war on blacks going on nowadays. It's not surprising that they don't feel all that bound by the social contract.

Specifically, I'm referring to the racial targeting with our "War on Drugs".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
A-fucking-men!

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There is every appearance of a brain drain in the civil rights era leadership. Not buying into any conspiracy theory, but I do think that America would be better off if those folks were around and in charge instead of Al and Jesse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Here is a recent article posted to Yahoo. With all the African American uproar over the Zimmerman case are blacks in America justified in their beliefs on racism? Or is this article more racism from the media?

Even if I go with the idea that every single thing written is the absolute Truth(TM), the entire piece is so ridiculously slanted that it makes me laugh. Am I surprised that we have placed blacks into a harassed, poor and really desperate situation so they commit crime? No, I am not. Sorry, but we have a freakin war on blacks going on nowadays. It's not surprising that they don't feel all that bound by the social contract.

Specifically, I'm referring to the racial targeting with our "War on Drugs".

Yeah, desperate people do desperate things. That's why it's best to avoid having too many desperate people. I like social safety nets not because I have a bleeding heart (trust me I do not). I like them because it effectively mitigates crap like this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And earlier Marcus Garvey was exiled after being framed by Hoover... others went into self imposed exile.

There is every appearance of a brain drain in the civil rights era leadership. Not buying into any conspiracy theory, but I do think that America would be better off if those folks were around and in charge instead of Al and Jesse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

But.... what happened to the black leadership that was invested in progress, non-violence, and undoing the hate? What happened to Bayard, Medgar, MLK and so on?

This may have been rhetorical, but I was interested in the answers, so I hit Google. MLK, we all know, was shot. Ditto for Medgar Evans. Bayard Rustin was sidelined by homophobia after being arrested for sex with another guy. It sounds, though, that he may have remained influential behind the scenes. He later focused on LGBT rights.

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Well, if I'm looking at a primary source document....
I may want some substantiation, but if I'm looking at the FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Report), I'm going to take their word on it in general.

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Too many years as a researcher leaves me skeptical to most writing.
I'll accept certain top edge papers, research papers from elite academic U's,

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hard core stats from neutral think tanks (Tougher and tougher to find these days) and that's about it w/o backing.

In fact, once upon a time I worked for a legislator and a Prof who had waaaaaaaay too much experience with the media-he said they were all lies and misquotes and wouldn't let his students use any newspapers or magazines period.
He accepted hard research and academic papers and that was it.

I'm a bit softer, but I'll only accept a few papers and/or mags.

quote:

150 years of lack of progress