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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 11:31:30 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

THE NEW FASCISM

We today are now witness to the dark cloud of a new dawn...in the real birth of Big Brother in America. With the eager compliance and assistance of the big businesses and the like, they profit from the coming of the Orwellian Utopia in the capitalist worker paradise.

Soon in the west, one 'wiretap' one vote will be the new clarion call of democracy. Defining down our Utopia...as without yet another single blow, will be the new opiate of the masses, and under its umbrella of fear...read, listen, watch...the courts no longer to be the first refuse of the new tyranny. They are already.

Many wellworn cliches in the OP. So much doom and gloom. Dark clouds, big brother, Orwellian, wiretap, fascism, utopia, on and on. Still waiting for one citizen to step forward and demonstrate how they were harmed by the current government's attempts at exercising prudent national security. Utopia? Who ever promised a rose garden? The world is complicated and potentially deadly place. Deal with it.

Oh isn't this cute. Because we defer the costs to the tune of trillions in new debt it's just ok and our future generations aren't going to hate our guts and spit on our graves for pissing away their right to privacy and presumption of innocence.

You just don't get it. I am talking of the very beginning of a new future, so what you read here will be [its] new culture. We have the luxury and conceit of living high while we still don't suffer, hence the 'new dawn.' Just wait until the sun starts down and there is no way to measure the hate coming for the floundering, cowardice we demonstrate in our political hedonism.

Th darkness is still maybe 20-50 years away but only the blind can't see it coming.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 11:37:07 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I have been very scared for this country for quite some time but your post seems to blame big corporations while absolving government.

Sorry, I don't see how that could be possible. Our government stinks like a fish; from the head on down and it has done so for quite some time.

Myself and my family have sacrificed a lot for this country (some of those have been the ultimate sacrifice) and to see the direction in which we're headed, it adds insult to injury.

I love my country but I fear and despise my government.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


Well, I thought it rather obvious that govt. and business are in bed together on this...they have to be. Since Nixon, maybe since Eisenhower's approval of 'taking' Iran for the new BP, business is govt. Look at who takes the high positions. Even Obama kissed BP's, the bankers and wall street's ass and there will be more and it's only going to get worse.

I hasten to add that were we able to ask the late Gen. Smedley Butler he told us it started with the Spanish/American war of 1898. He knew and wrote if it in 'War is a Racket' that he and his marines went to China and Mexico for 'Standard Oil.'

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/4/2013 11:59:26 AM >

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 11:41:20 AM   
Marini


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quote:

First things first; I don't do drugs so, I'm not "on" anything and I would appreciate if you would stop insinuating such.

I apologize, that wasn't called for.

Second of all; I never said that I wanted to dismantle the government and I have never said that corporations aren't greedy. That's a given.

Nice strawman attempt though.


Some of the isssues I have with those that often criticize the government is:
They rarely mention all the programs that have improved the quality of most of our citizens lives, such as the social security administration.
Or the fact that that corporations have directly contributed to lowering the standards of living for many Americans, with practices that include: unbridled outsourcing of millions of white and blue collar jobs, and unscrupulous labor policies and practices in this country and all over the world.


Happy 4th

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/4/2013 11:47:37 AM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 11:46:21 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

First things first; I don't do drugs so, I'm not "on" anything and I would appreciate if you would stop insinuating such.

Second of all; I never said that I wanted to dismantle the government and I have never said that corporations aren't greedy. That's a given.

Nice strawman attempt though.




FR sorta
I have heard people say that before too. Dismantling the government does not make sense to me. We have to have some form of government. That is a given. How it is executed is entirely another story and when it gets far enough out of line that "reconstruction" would would require so many changes that it takes an entirely new face as they have done so many times in the past it understandble that someone might simply sum it up as dismantling it. The way it is being used in todays society is doing more harm than good, and who would ever agree that 51% can trample over anyones rights? Surely not me. Whats wrong with live and let live? Let every person have the pie according to their own desires rather than this one shoe fits all by democratic vote shit? Especially since we do NOT get to vote on anything, its done for us no different than any other parliamentary dictatorship

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 11:54:03 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

what are you going to do about it? I mean, really do about it?

There is nothing we can do about it in that Americans will never take to the streets say...like the Germans did and that would be required.

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 12:19:47 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
what are you going to do about it? I mean, really do about it?

There is nothing we can do about it in that Americans will never take to the streets say...like the Germans did and that would be required.

Yes, I agree with you on that.. but I personally will take my own form(s) of evasive action.. I was wondering if you were doing anything personally or business-wise to counteract govt actions?.. (I know you have attempted to isolate yourself & income, property already.. but anything in addition to that?)

< Message edited by tj444 -- 7/4/2013 12:20:45 PM >


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As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 12:39:46 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
what are you going to do about it? I mean, really do about it?

There is nothing we can do about it in that Americans will never take to the streets say...like the Germans did and that would be required.

Yes, I agree with you on that.. but I personally will take my own form(s) of evasive action.. I was wondering if you were doing anything personally or business-wise to counteract govt actions?.. (I know you have attempted to isolate yourself & income, property already.. but anything in addition to that?)

I must admit, I am now in a more advisory capacity. I suggest to young in the family and others, to keep as much cash as they can as American banks are the last place to put it. Put a reasonable amount in the markets. Don't re-elect anybody, maybe even buy a little gold etc.

I have had offers to partner in a hotel/rest. in Malaysia (cheap) and even in the Philippines. (lax regulations...ya think) But I don't want to leave all of my friends and family. My concerns are a fraction of that of the young.

Got to go...beer is on ice and they are firing up the grill.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/4/2013 12:41:37 PM >

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 1:38:42 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

First things first; I don't do drugs so, I'm not "on" anything and I would appreciate if you would stop insinuating such.

I apologize, that wasn't called for.

Second of all; I never said that I wanted to dismantle the government and I have never said that corporations aren't greedy. That's a given.

Nice strawman attempt though.


Some of the isssues I have with those that often criticize the government is:
They rarely mention all the programs that have improved the quality of most of our citizens lives, such as the social security administration.
Or the fact that that corporations have directly contributed to lowering the standards of living for many Americans, with practices that include: unbridled outsourcing of millions of white and blue collar jobs, and unscrupulous labor policies and practices in this country and all over the world.


Happy 4th



All well and good, however the greater majority on this board railed on me for railing on the corps over 10 years ago about this very topic. Now that my insight has proven that it did as predicted come full circle to bite them in the asses the story has changed.

No one enjoys our sorry assed reality staring them in the face. I dont either. Neither do I simply sweep it under the carpet.

The best program for the improvement for the quality of life was created by and lived by the people when this country was first settled servitude excepted.

What you are faced with today is dealing with the paying for the programs and infrastructure created yesterday, much of which is purely bullshit and waste.

The proper solutions would have been to stick to the old rules that nipped these problems in the butt rather than create our bandaide entitlements culture we have today.

Why give people the tools to fish when we can regulate the fish we give them?

The whole premise is backwards and is a cancer on any nation. The government causes the problems then comes to the rescue with sugar coated programs that in this government are all doomed to fail, as they have in similar governments past.

We are the Borg.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 1:42:13 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
But I don't want to leave all of my friends and family.


and that is the only thing that keeps me here.

never cash, cash has no intrinsic value.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 2:35:05 PM   
Termyn8or


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Today, what masquerades as a celebrartion of the US' independence is more of a wake. I almost made a joke about them celebrating the fourth of July in England as the day they got the fuck rid of us, but that would be inappropriate. Of course that's never stopped me before. The fact is they did not get rid of us.

The British Empire could not have been conquered by the totally ineffective soldiers they sent here to quell the rebellion in the colonies, it would be foolish to believe so. This underfunded ragtag bunch of rebellious upstarts led by the likes of a splinter group of semi-dissident elites kicked their asses when the sun never set on the Empire ? Gimme a break. They knew it would be too fucking hard to govern. The taxes against which the colonists rebelled is unlikely to have covered the costs of governing. I laugh just as hard at people who put forth the notion that the Nazis would have eventually tried to take the US. Even in that day, with the relatively modern war machines and transportation methods it would still be impractical, and more importantly, not profitable.

If there's one thing to celebrate it is the institutionalized complacency that comes from hardly ever being attacked. We went from the 1800s to 1941 and then to 2001 unscathed. Either we're bad motherfuckers or nobody wants us. Possibly both. Our major export is death, and if that's how it is, well you voted for it. Not that you have had much choice since the 1800s but something should have been done a long time ago. You played with your kids instead of teaching, you put your nose to the grindstone for a color TV and new car. You painted you white picket fences. And then when it started going downhill you put more locks on your door.

People pratlle on about future generations cursing us for saddling them with all this debt, well I am 52 and I am cursing my ancestors for saddling us with all this debt. The new deal should never have happened. It was just about 100 years ago this year that everything changed. Yup, 1913. Don't get me wrong, it's never been a free country, nor can any such thing ever exist, but 1913 was when the government gave the money away. With the Alien and Sedition act in place one like Ron Paul would have most likely been arrested. The new deal was all part of the plan as was the strife which was its impetus.

Now everyone has to have someone convenient to blame. A political party, or more like apolitical party. Lately on a forum there have been a couple of posts about the democratic party and their suppport for Black slavery. I forgot to hand them some ammo actually, Roger B. Taney was a democrat. If the name is too obscure for you look up the Dred Scott decision which stated that an escaped slave is not free just because he made it to a free state. Guess how Taney got his job on the supreme court. I'll give you a hint, at least four secretaries of the treasury rrefused to do what he did on the orders of the President, who was also a traitor. These actions paved the way for the financial meltdown we are experiencing.

That's right, ARE EXPERIENCING. It is almost as if we are in the eye of a storm right now. Few have gotten rich and many have gotten poor. The banks are making moves to secure for themselves, alot of property through foreclosures. Even though bailed out by your tax money they are going to fuck you again. There is no end in sight until they have everything and I know why. Though inflation and deflation, we WILL wake up homeless. Who said that ?

This country is run by sick people, they have one of the strongest addictions in the world and there is no treatment, no cure, and not even a diagnosis. Of course I don't mean the politicians, they are as important as a TV news anchorman. Just someone pretty to look at, not much more. they do as they are told. Why ?

Because if I am the boss of "Bank Of America" I can walk into Obama's office and demand whatever the fuck I want. If I don't get what I want I can just say, OK, the bank is closed. Not even closed, just change policy. If I run Haliburton/KBR I can say "you kmow those MREs, we are going to make them with nutriloaf". Boy don't go to prison these days, look up nutriloaf and you'll know exactly what I mean. I mean you would probably prefer bread and water.

At "the other place" there was also an argument about this country becoming communist. One poster argued the definition of communism, which includes the government owning or controlling most of the means of production. Well here we have a situation is which the owners of the means of production have the ULTIMATE influence on the government. Six of one, half dozen of the other. There is no practical difference, in fact the plutocracy we have is probably a bit worse than commiunism. At least in communism people can have a revolt, if we kill all politicians it would be like killing a bunch of Walter Cronkites. Don't get me wrong, Cronkite was a thinking Man unlike most of his contemporaries, but he was still powerless. Even the massive power of the media is not allowed to be usurped by one of their representatives. When posed with the possibility that JFK was assassinated by Israel for threatening to cut off all aids if they did not abandon their nuclear program he responded "There is nobody else on this planet that could have kept a lid on something like that". (close but not exact quote) It's not like he was a bubbleheaded bleachblonde, but that didn't give him any sort of means to do anyting about anything, whether he wanted to or not. If he was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, he would never say it on the air.

I am a born and raised troubleshooter. I sift the facts to find the underlying cause of a problem and seek a real solution whenever possible. For this, I come up short. I mean I am from a fucking family that never calls a repairman, we figure shit out, but these problems were millenia in the making. I have come to the conclusion that one lifetime is too short to fix the ills of mankind. And that's what they are.

I see only one solution to these problems. Death. Either mine or a bunch of other people. I have spent plenty a sober moment thinking very clearly about these problems and possible solutions to even the tiniest of them, and they are so fucking entrenched that I fall flat. You don't understand, solving problems was my claim to fame, I shit you not. I'm tired of thinking.

So now I am going to celebrate the fourth of July. I am going to do some laundry.

Be well as you can. To be happy, make sure you die on schedule, I know I am way late. Seriously, my life has been in great danger a few times. I do not necessarily appreciate making it through those times anymore.

And now I realize that is the basis of true freedom, I just don't give fuck.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 7/4/2013 2:44:57 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 6:14:32 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Oh isn't this cute. Because we defer the costs to the tune of trillions in new debt it's just ok and our future generations aren't going to hate our guts and spit on our graves for pissing away their right to privacy and presumption of innocence.

You just don't get it. I am talking of the very beginning of a new future, so what you read here will be [its] new culture. We have the luxury and conceit of living high while we still don't suffer, hence the 'new dawn.' Just wait until the sun starts down and there is no way to measure the hate coming for the floundering, cowardice we demonstrate in our political hedonism.

Th darkness is still maybe 20-50 years away but only the blind can't see it coming.

Oh, a prophet for the new age. Jeremiah comes to us again. Such lamentations and beating of the breasts. Yawn

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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/4/2013 11:08:13 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Oh isn't this cute. Because we defer the costs to the tune of trillions in new debt it's just ok and our future generations aren't going to hate our guts and spit on our graves for pissing away their right to privacy and presumption of innocence.

You just don't get it. I am talking of the very beginning of a new future, so what you read here will be [its] new culture. We have the luxury and conceit of living high while we still don't suffer, hence the 'new dawn.' Just wait until the sun starts down and there is no way to measure the hate coming for the floundering, cowardice we demonstrate in our political hedonism.

Th darkness is still maybe 20-50 years away but only the blind can't see it coming.

Oh, a prophet for the new age. Jeremiah comes to us again. Such lamentations and beating of the breasts. Yawn

History is full of just such predictions. Carrying a cross, wrapped in a flag, by conquest or consent...fascism is coming to America. Sound familiar ? Even the idea that is will be a gradual, long term form of political cancer...many have outlined the same thing I have here.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/5/2013 5:52:45 AM   
vincentML


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History is also filled with predictions of the end of days. Shall we all ascend the hilltop and await the second coming? I think not.

Are there flaws in our democratic republic? Sure. Is our system messy? Yes. Do we have a history of severe conflicts? Ya betcha. Somehow we muddle through. Muddling through is what life is about. Criticisms may be valid. But to move from criticism to prophecies of doom is a leap too far. Prophets have no special gift and are rightfully without honor in their own time and only occasionally accidentally correct in future time. No better than reading the entrails of a chicken.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/5/2013 5:56:15 AM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/5/2013 7:04:15 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

History is also filled with predictions of the end of days. Shall we all ascend the hilltop and await the second coming? I think not.

Are there flaws in our democratic republic? Sure. Is our system messy? Yes. Do we have a history of severe conflicts? Ya betcha. Somehow we muddle through. Muddling through is what life is about. Criticisms may be valid. But to move from criticism to prophecies of doom is a leap too far. Prophets have no special gift and are rightfully without honor in their own time and only occasionally accidentally correct in future time. No better than reading the entrails of a chicken.


I'm not sure how much gloom and doom is in our future, but some things are predictable.

I've heard "prophecy" described as something analogous to a parent warning a child: "Don't touch that burner, it's hot! You'll get burned!" It's not telling us what will happen, but what could happen, especially if one makes foolish choices.

Obviously, we can't have utopia, but keep in mind that a lot of us Americans were raised with the idea (propaganda?) that the United States is the greatest nation on Earth. Therefore, it's natural that many of us would set higher standards than just muddling through a messy and flawed democratic-republic. "Muddling through" is what third-rate powers do, so is that what we've come to?

Sometimes, I think the problem is not so much that people want utopia (although it would be nice), but I also see a certain sense of complacency in those who seem to think that we already have utopia, or the closest thing that we could ever have. But this leads to sitting back on our laurels and causes stagnation.

Some people are already sufficiently comfortable that they don't need any change in society, but there also seems to be widespread neglect about the needs of the future. Whereas in the past, American generations would work hard and sacrifice to make lives better for the next generation, the current ruling generation seems to be doing the exact opposite. We're borrowing scads of money, saddling future generations with humongous debts, just to pay for our own comforts and luxuries today, all the while patting ourselves on the back at how great we are.

That's the real illusion taking place in America, more so than any idealistic push towards utopia. There are too many people who think we already have utopia or at least near-utopia, that "it doesn't get any better than this." I think those people are far worse and far more dangerous in the long run than the "gloom and doom" crowd.

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RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/5/2013 8:37:49 AM   
Marini


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Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

Sometimes, I think the problem is not so much that people want utopia (although it would be nice), but I also see a certain sense of complacency in those who seem to think that we already have utopia, or the closest thing that we could ever have. But this leads to sitting back on our laurels and causes stagnation.

Some people are already sufficiently comfortable that they don't need any change in society, but there also seems to be widespread neglect about the needs of the future. Whereas in the past, American generations would work hard and sacrifice to make lives better for the next generation, the current ruling generation seems to be doing the exact opposite. We're borrowing scads of money, saddling future generations with humongous debts, just to pay for our own comforts and luxuries today, all the while patting ourselves on the back at how great we are.

That's the real illusion taking place in America, more so than any idealistic push towards utopia. There are too many people who think we already have utopia or at least near-utopia, that "it doesn't get any better than this." I think those people are far worse and far more dangerous in the long run than the "gloom and doom" crowd.


This was powerful, thank you.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: It's the 4th...let 'celebrate ?' - 7/5/2013 1:47:01 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Some people are already sufficiently comfortable that they don't need any change in society, but there also seems to be widespread neglect about the needs of the future. Whereas in the past, American generations would work hard and sacrifice to make lives better for the next generation, the current ruling generation seems to be doing the exact opposite. We're borrowing scads of money, saddling future generations with humongous debts, just to pay for our own comforts and luxuries today, all the while patting ourselves on the back at how great we are.

It just may be part of the American myth that past generations were graciously concerned for future generations. I am dubious of the historical veracity of that notion.

Most of our debt is going toward national defense and building a social foundation for the poor and elderly. The increasing wealth disparity is witness to the unlikelihood we are squandering the future for the sake of present luxuries and comforts. I do not see that to be true in the public sector. Moreso in the private sector, I think.

(in reply to Zonie63)
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