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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/3/2013 6:17:58 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

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The great thing about this phrase is that it's handy shorthand for "Here's a post that needn't be taken seriously."

True dat

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/3/2013 8:10:08 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I have this vague memory of someone once claiming to be a moderate independent. Of course that poster never wrote a single positive thing about anyone even centrist much less liberal or progressive. I also remember that poster proclaiming that he had voted for theocrats in several elections for US President despite being a military veteran.

DomKen, well I'm not going to vote for a Dem or Repub for president.
Just because you're Independent why would you want to say anything "good" about Republicans or Democrats?
All the problems in the governments in this country have been *caused* by Dems and Repubs.
What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over again?

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/3/2013 8:13:53 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Egyptian's need to learn how democracy works...

True. And that takes time. If you think of Anglo-American history, one might argue that the road to democracy began with Magna Carta in 1215. It took half a millennium to get from that to the U.S. Constitution.

An Egyptian friend of a friend points out that the country has had thousands of years of authoritarianism and scant time to attempt democracy. It's hardly a shock they didn't get it right the first time. (We didn't either, if you consider the Articles of Confederation.)

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/3/2013 9:14:07 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I have this vague memory of someone once claiming to be a moderate independent. Of course that poster never wrote a single positive thing about anyone even centrist much less liberal or progressive. I also remember that poster proclaiming that he had voted for theocrats in several elections for US President despite being a military veteran.

DomKen, well I'm not going to vote for a Dem or Repub for president.
Just because you're Independent why would you want to say anything "good" about Republicans or Democrats?
All the problems in the governments in this country have been *caused* by Dems and Repubs.
What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over again?

So your solution is to forsake the oath you took and aid people who would over throw the Constitution?

And you didn't just claim to be an independent but a moderate.

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/3/2013 10:43:22 PM

tweakabelle

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Odd that no one is praising the sophistication and determination of the Egyptian people, who refused to let Morsi off his election promises and insisted that he govern for all the people. They gave him a year to produce results and when that year expired, and the results were disappointing, they got rid of him.

I can't say that Morsi is likely to go down as a towering figure in history but he was Egypt's first democratically elected leader, which is something to note, especially by those ill informed people who still believe against all the evidence that "Israel is the only democracy" in the region.

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/3/2013 11:21:57 PM

RottenJohnny

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I'm just glad to see a (mostly) Muslim population telling their fundamentalist leaders where the fuckin' door is.

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 6:11:42 AM

kdsub

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Yea a real democracy...I have no love for Morsi but he was elected fairly and should be given his full term to deliver on his promises. Then if he does not another fair election could bring a change in policy... That is the way democracies work... not rioting in the streets with deaths and destruction and military intervention.

Egypt is not a democracy yet... there is more to a democracy then elections... it is a way of life.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/4/2013 6:12:34 AM >

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 11:50:02 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yea a real democracy...I have no love for Morsi but he was elected fairly and should be given his full term to deliver on his promises. Then if he does not another fair election could bring a change in policy... That is the way democracies work... not rioting in the streets with deaths and destruction and military intervention.

Egypt is not a democracy yet... there is more to a democracy then elections... it is a way of life.

Butch

But has already been pointed out. This is a Nation new to democratic priciples, dont expect it to be perfect overnight. Ours wasnt, yours wasnt etc etc.

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 12:21:54 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yea a real democracy...I have no love for Morsi but he was elected fairly and should be given his full term to deliver on his promises. Then if he does not another fair election could bring a change in policy... That is the way democracies work... not rioting in the streets with deaths and destruction and military intervention.

Egypt is not a democracy yet... there is more to a democracy then elections... it is a way of life.

Butch

Surely you jest. Ok let's see in 4 years. He's trashes an equally democratic constitution, shuts down the free press, jailed his opponents, puts foreigners on trial or kicks them out of the country, intimidates all non-theocratic businesses to come around or go out of business.

Installs and establishes Muslim theocratic rule designed never to allow any...so-called democracy.. Is that what you mean ?

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/4/2013 12:23:22 PM >

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 1:11:23 PM

kdsub

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Then impeach him... or continue the public demonstrations and protests... I will not jump on a new Arab spring uprising that will only mean more death and that is exactly what this means...perhaps a civil war as well.

He was elected fairly by a majority... vote him out or his support at the next election if it is the true will of the people. This is wrong my friend.

It makes no difference if they are new to democracy...it is still wrong... We cannot have it both ways... we wanted and demanded a democratic election we got one and just because the elected government is not governing as you think proper is no excuse for a military coup.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/4/2013 1:12:45 PM >

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 1:50:35 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

President Pantload

The great thing about this phrase is that it's handy shorthand for "Here's a post that needn't be taken seriously."

yea I like it when they are helpful like that

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 1:58:25 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Then impeach him... or continue the public demonstrations and protests... I will not jump on a new Arab spring uprising that will only mean more death and that is exactly what this means...perhaps a civil war as well.

He was elected fairly by a majority... vote him out or his support at the next election if it is the true will of the people. This is wrong my friend.

It makes no difference if they are new to democracy...it is still wrong... We cannot have it both ways... we wanted and demanded a democratic election we got one and just because the elected government is not governing as you think proper is no excuse for a military coup.

Butch

'Democracy' just means 'rule by the people', Butch. Everything else beyond that, including the manner and style of elections, is up for question and examination. This is a very new democracy - it's bound to have birth pains. There's a whole political culture that needs to form the background of a democracy that actually works - Egypt has only the semblance of that so far. Hell, in the political science textbooks even the systems of the UK and the USA are often referred to as 'immature democracies'.

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 2:36:46 PM

kdsub

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Sorry I can't go along with you on this... democracy in any form does NOT mean murder, riot, and military coups. It is not even the will of the people as you proclaim... that was determined by an election. I do understand the broken promises and missteps of this administration. Maybe some day their democracy will be as good as ours.... after all... our administrations NEVER break promises or make mistakes.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/4/2013 2:37:33 PM >

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 3:30:49 PM

PeonForHer

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I was making no comment about murder, riots and military coups. Like I said, democracy just means rule by the people. One of the points of elections, and all the other institutions within a given democratic system, is to render disagreements between people safe and enable them to be dealt with peacefully. The particular institutions in Egypt obviously weren't doing the job.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/4/2013 3:33:51 PM >

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 3:42:07 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Then impeach him... or continue the public demonstrations and protests... I will not jump on a new Arab spring uprising that will only mean more death and that is exactly what this means...perhaps a civil war as well.

He was elected fairly by a majority... vote him out or his support at the next election if it is the true will of the people. This is wrong my friend.

It makes no difference if they are new to democracy...it is still wrong... We cannot have it both ways... we wanted and demanded a democratic election we got one and just because the elected government is not governing as you think proper is no excuse for a military coup.

Butch

Impeachment is the luxury of a functioning democracy with a valid constitution and courts from which to draw its bone fides. Egypt as I understand the situation now...has neither.

Here

It is my understanding that Morsi has thus eviscerated any democratic rule and is perceived as such by many to be no better, even worse than Mubarak.

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/4/2013 4:29:49 PM

Politesub53

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Impeachment could never happen since Morsi declared himself above the courts. The man was inept and an arse.

Butch is right though, a Military Coup, with unelected generals, isnt the way forward. If the military had stood on the sidelines and refused orders from Morsi, the whole thing would have collapsed anyhow. Hopefully the military will ensure order and the technocrats who have been put in charge can sort out a date for an unhurried election, inclusive of all parties.

I wonder what President Obama will do now, since the aid given by the US to the Egyptian Military is legally encumbent on no military coups ?

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/8/2013 4:10:21 AM

Politesub53

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23222546

This is a worrying sign. I wonder if the US will start to take action on the military aid issue, as per my post above.

Switching to the UK, Tony Blair, friend of Bush and co-conspiritaor in the move to "give democracy to ordinary Iraqis" has passed comment on the latest coup.

"The Egyptian army had to act".......... Shame on you Tony and just another reason why I wont vote for New Labour.

Let me make it quite clear, either we accept democracy, whoever gets electer, or we dont. We cant have it both ways and to do so makes all those who see the Wests idea of democracy think "Fuck that for a lark"

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/8/2013 5:22:06 AM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Odd that no one is praising the sophistication and determination of the Egyptian people, who refused to let Morsi off his election promises and insisted that he govern for all the people. They gave him a year to produce results and when that year expired, and the results were disappointing, they got rid of him.

I can't say that Morsi is likely to go down as a towering figure in history but he was Egypt's first democratically elected leader, which is something to note, especially by those ill informed people who still believe against all the evidence that "Israel is the only democracy" in the region.

1. It's not exactly the Egyptian people as much as the military. I'm hoping that they would not have done this without the will of the people behind them.

2. It's a judgment call whether Mursi was democratically elected or not. Of course, technically he was, but you could make a case that the Mursi who was elected was nothing like the Mursi that was removed from power. And that specifically was why the military intervened. There was no question that Mursi and the Brotherhood were freezing out other parties and IMO preparing to lock in power, such that any future elections would be rigged.

The thing that's amazed me is the degree to which the Brotherhood consistently overplayed their hand. The military first demanded simply that power be shared. The coup only occurred when that demand was ignored. The Brotherhood is still acting like they are the legitimate government when they've lost the support of both the people and the military. They're very liable to get suppressed again in Egypt, and I'd be surprised if other Arab leaders don't keep a lid on them as well.

They've gone from being the legitimate government, to one under stress, to deposed, all within a few short months, and seem to not comprehend.

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/8/2013 8:52:49 PM

njlauren

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It is troubling and it is hard to sit back and say what is worse.....the thing with Egypt is that the coup wasn't just a bunch of generals deciding to grab power, it was in response/used as an excuse popular uprisings against Morsi and the Brotherhood, who basically instead of trying to solve real issues, like economic unfairness and lack of government services, decided they were going to try and recreate Iran in Egypt,t hey acted like they came to power, not in an election, but rather in some sort of Islamic revolution, and they lost at least half the country with their stupidity. I have heard more liberal commenters defending the brotherhood, that they had the right to make mistakes, that they had been 'duly elected' but what people forget about democracy, or at least the way it is supposed to work, is that the people have the right to protest and ask for redress. It is disquieting that the military did this, it would have been better for people to protest and call for a new government, but on the other hand it looked like the country was heading for civil war. I am not surprised this happened, the protests that toppled Mubarek came out of the urban, educated classes in Egypt, the problem is, the government that was elected was put there by the rural, poor, uneducated voters, and those protesting Morsi were/are the educated classes, while those calling for the government to be restored at the poor/uneducated classes, it is a major divide. The question here is if the military didn't act, what would have happened? Would it have degenerated into a civil war? And if so, what would be the result of that? I don't pretend to know what would have happened, but it could be the military saw the country sinking into civil war and decided to nip it in the bud, it may not be a cut and dried "the military subverted democracy"

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RE: Egypt set for a bloodless coup ? - 7/8/2013 8:56:36 PM

njlauren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Odd that no one is praising the sophistication and determination of the Egyptian people, who refused to let Morsi off his election promises and insisted that he govern for all the people. They gave him a year to produce results and when that year expired, and the results were disappointing, they got rid of him.

I can't say that Morsi is likely to go down as a towering figure in history but he was Egypt's first democratically elected leader, which is something to note, especially by those ill informed people who still believe against all the evidence that "Israel is the only democracy" in the region.

1. It's not exactly the Egyptian people as much as the military. I'm hoping that they would not have done this without the will of the people behind them.

2. It's a judgment call whether Mursi was democratically elected or not. Of course, technically he was, but you could make a case that the Mursi who was elected was nothing like the Mursi that was removed from power. And that specifically was why the military intervened. There was no question that Mursi and the Brotherhood were freezing out other parties and IMO preparing to lock in power, such that any future elections would be rigged.

The thing that's amazed me is the degree to which the Brotherhood consistently overplayed their hand. The military first demanded simply that power be shared. The coup only occurred when that demand was ignored. The Brotherhood is still acting like they are the legitimate government when they've lost the support of both the people and the military. They're very liable to get suppressed again in Egypt, and I'd be surprised if other Arab leaders don't keep a lid on them as well.

They've gone from being the legitimate government, to one under stress, to deposed, all within a few short months, and seem to not comprehend.

I think the answer on the Brotherhood is clear, it is the classic tale of what happens when you mix religion and government, you get a corrupted religion and an oppressive government. While religion in government isn't the only cause of oppression, a group that thinks they are "tasked by God to create a government in his image", are going to do things as if they have a huge mandate, when they clearly didn't, they really believed they had that mandate....it was kind of like Bush 1 coming into office and acting like he had a mandate, when he won by a slim thread.

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